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Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

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Old 07-21-2003, 10:13 PM
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bambam-x
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Can anyone give me the pros and cons of using the hamm radio setup? I have the chance to set this up and was wondering if it would be worth it.

Thanks
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:40 PM
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Default Re: Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by bambam-x
Can anyone give me the pros and cons of using the hamm radio setup? I have the chance to set this up and was wondering if it would be worth it.

Thanks
Couple of questions first......

Are you a licensed ham?

What do you mean by the "chance to set this up?"

Dan (WB4GUK)
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Old 07-21-2003, 10:41 PM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Have a good deal lined up on a radio set up on Hamm frequency and is it worth getting a license?
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:15 PM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by bambam-x
Have a good deal lined up on a radio set up on Hamm frequency and is it worth getting a license?
Don't let the $$$ influence your decision.

Pros:

1) Usually less problems at the field with sharing frequencies.

2) Non-hams can not use your transmitter. See con 1 below.

3) Less likely to get shot down by another transmitter.

4) You can change (legally) your crystals and service your radio if you have the knowledge.

5) The transmitter power is 1 watt max as opposed to 3/4 watt on 72 MHz.

6) Down-linking....see update below

Cons:

1) Non-hams can not use your transmitter. This means you can't teach if the student is not a ham with a ham transmitter either as the master or slave.

2) Depending on the band activity in your area, it is possible to have interference from other hams on the band. I have been flying on both 50 and 53 MHz for years and have not had any problems.

3) Less people locally that can buy your old equipment.
The net and especially eBay has removed this con. Ham stuff brings as much if not more that 72 MHz equipment.


I'll update this as I remember. This is what I can write quickly.

Go to the ARRL or FCC web site as there are practice test for the Tech license.

Update:

Lynx made a good point...

"It's not generally worth getting a HAM license just for RC work unless you're planning on going into the experimental side"""

Most of the down-linked videos systems are on the hams bands and as such you need the ticket to be legal. The requirement depends on the frequency and power of the unit.

If you want to experiment with telemetry of any type you would need the ticket. It is not legal to use 72 MHz for down-linking.

Dan (WB4GUK since '67)
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:18 PM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Thanks, it will probably too much hassel for the money I would save...
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Old 07-22-2003, 12:23 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

It's not generally worth getting a HAM license just for RC work unless you're planning on going into the experimental side of things or are actually interested in becoming a HAM for other reasons. Don't forget the cost of getting a license, though minimal could be better used on a new servo or just general supplies.
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Old 07-22-2003, 12:40 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

bambam,
I got my Ham license way back when you actually had to learn code to get it.
While my interest in Ham was for using the 2M and 6M bands primarily (I've got a sweetie of a radio.. a Yaesu FT-817), I admit that I also thought it would be great to start using Ham band R/C radio's as well.

So here's the perspective of a Ham who already has the license.

I got my Ham license about the time that the R/C channels were expanded in the 72mz band so we went from just 7 available channels to over 50. The Ham R/C radios became less important at that moment in time.
Something else I also learned during my Ham education is that the R/C Ham channels are NOT protected. It IS legal for other Hams to use those channels primarily for remote control of pretty much anything they want, and at higher power output as well so you can be affected by interference generated a long way from your flying site.

In the end, here's why I never did get a R/C Ham radio.
1. False security when using Ham channels.
2. While using a Ham R/C radio, you are then operating under the rules of Ham, and not under the pretty loose rules of the R/C hobby.
3. If you ever wanted to sell your Ham R/C radio, it will be much harder to find a qualified buyer because only another Ham will be able to use it. There ARE penalties for operating a Ham radio, including R/C, without a license. And for those of you who think you can, screw you; I'LL turn you in in a heartbeat and so would most other Hams if you couldn't show your Ham license at the field. I worked hard for my Ham license and I'll be darned if I'll let others work Ham without one.
4. With the large channel selections we now have between 12 and 60 on 72mz, it's pretty hard to find even a busy field where you have to wait for a pin. And if you THINK that will be a problem, just do what I just did. I ordered a Tracker II from Polk's Hobby that comes standard with TX synth and channel scanner, and also comes with a synth RX. That means that you can select ANY of the 72mz frequencies you want to fly on each time you power up. If every channel on the board is being used except one (any one), you'll still be able to fly (although I'd like to see a flying site with almost 50 airplanes in the air).

The Tracker II w/RX was only $275, but if you want to blow a bunch more cash, you also have the option of the Futaba 9Z w/synth module or the Multiplex EVO w/synth module.

That's my take,
Highflight
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Old 07-23-2003, 12:18 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

"Couple of questions first......

Are you a licensed ham?

What do you mean by the "chance to set this up?"

Dan (WB4GUK)"

Why is it that everyone is so quick to jump on and criticize or Police” everyone else before they even have a clue to what the other person is doing here? Maybe intentions don’t get read right when looking at type, but the “What do you mean by the "chance to set this up?" “ Seemed like you were ready to start accusations and reprimand bambam-x when all he did was ask a question.

Rather than start a hard-core interrogation for a simple question (and set the person up for failure), why not let him have the info and tell him the benefits and requirements for a Ham license before calling the FCC to report the newest violator. BTW getting a ham license with the newest requirements is not that difficult and really not that pricey. Also my wife got hers, and knows much less than I do about electronics and radio waves, amazing what studying the answers to the online questions will get you.

Also just for info I’ve been operating over 50w on VHF for over 7 years now, and I never had a license or any classes on how to do so. Before you report me ask me how on PM.

Mike
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Old 07-23-2003, 12:57 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by lortap1969
"Couple of questions first......

Are you a licensed ham?

What do you mean by the "chance to set this up?"

Dan (WB4GUK)"

Why is it that everyone is so quick to jump on and criticize or Police” everyone else before they even have a clue to what the other person is doing here? Maybe intentions don’t get read right when looking at type, but the “What do you mean by the "chance to set this up?" “ Seemed like you were ready to start accusations and reprimand bambam-x when all he did was ask a question.

Mike
Mike,

I type slow and not very well. I simply needed to know more about his question in order to answer him with the fewest key strokes. I don't read between the lines very well.

There is nothing that waste more time than answering a question that was not asked, as I have done several times before.

Dan (WB4GUK)
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Old 07-23-2003, 01:11 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

babbam-x

IFLYJ3 pretty much covered the pros and cons. As a Ham who's been operating on 50 MHz for years I've never had any interference problems or ever had to share a frequency with another flier at any field so far...

A local club here in the area had a few folks who decided to operate on 50 MHz without licenses. Not only did they face FCC fines they also jeopardized their AMA memberships and if they had been involved in any accidents at the field they would not be covered by the AMA insurance. As a Ham and a AMA member it's my responsibility to ensure I follow all the FCC and AMA regulations. If I see someone who is not, I'll let them know what their doing wrong and give them a chance to do the right thing. I won't turn them in.

I highly encourage anyone to pursue their license. A technician license (no code) depending where you take the test will cost no more than approx $15.00. Some local ham clubs give the test for free! All the test questions are basic stuff and the answers and practice test can be found on-line like at http://www.qrz.com or http://www.arrl.org and your license is good for 10 years.

If you have any specific questions feel free to PM me and I'll be happy to answer them. 73

Cal (N3CAL)
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:27 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Dan,

Good to here your response. As I mentioned sometimes we (I may be more guilty than others) read between the lines, and best intentions don't always seem so. Maybe its just getting off the Jet site, and seeing someone terribly bashed about talking about his own afterburner (and the poor guy does not even have the engine in a plane or plan on flying his creation at any AMA field)

Good to here that theres answers to ?'s rather than just someone ready to jump another for speaking up

Mike
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Old 07-24-2003, 03:11 AM
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Default Ham ticket cost

Originally posted by Lynx
It's not generally worth getting a HAM license just for RC work unless you're planning on going into the experimental side of things or are actually interested in becoming a HAM for other reasons. Don't forget the cost of getting a license, though minimal could be better used on a new servo or just general supplies.
Lynx,It only cost $10.00 for the test to get the tech ticket.
If he goes for the ham ticket he can still stick with the 72 meg freq.
Then when he gets to know some local flyers he may run upon a good deal and he'll already have the ticket.
Just my 2 cents.
AF2Q
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Old 07-24-2003, 03:13 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

<1) Non-hams can not use your transmitter. This means you can't teach if the student is not a ham with a ham transmitter either as the master or slave. >

Not true. As long as a licensed operator is in the presence, it can be operated by anyone.
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Old 07-24-2003, 08:44 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by Warren
<1) Non-hams can not use your transmitter. This means you can't teach if the student is not a ham with a ham transmitter either as the master or slave. >

Not true. As long as a licensed operator is in the presence, it can be operated by anyone.
Hi Warren,

This debate has happened many times before and I agree with your thinking. However, the ARRl and FCC does not agree with us. See the below email.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: 50 MHz Radios???
From: Terry Lee
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:14:23 -0500

Hi Mark,

Here is a copy of the information I received from the ARRL on this matter:

"Here is the discussion on this topic taken from the latest edition of the
ARRL's FCC Rule Book:

"Telecommand of Model Craft
Amateurs are also permitted to use radio links to control "model craft,"
such as model airplanes and boats. Certain restrictions apply [97.215] on
this kind of operation:
o Station identification is not required for transmission directed only to
the model craft. The control transmitter must bear a label indicating the
station's call sign and the licensee's name and address [97.215(a)].
o Control signals are not considered codes and ciphers [97.215(b)].
o Transmitter power cannot exceed 1 W [97.215(c)].
o Only licensed amateurs may operate telecommand transmitters using amateur
frequencies.
While unlicensed persons may participate as "third parties" in most amateur
operations, they may not participate in telecommand operation. This is true
even when a licensed amateur is closely supervising the operation. The FCC
has said that the one-way transmissions involved in telecommand do not
constitute third-party messages exchanged between control operators.
Nonamateurs must use equipment and frequencies in the Radio Control Service.
If licensed amateurs wish to use amateur equipment and frequencies for model
telecommand, it is their responsibility to be sure that they can safely
operate the equipment while observing the FCC's Rules."

73,
Tom Hogerty, KC1J
Field & Educational Services
Phone: 860-594-0323
FAX: 860-594-0259
E-Mail: kc1j@arrl.org"

Terry, N1OZJ

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dan
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Old 07-24-2003, 09:02 AM
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Whirley Bird
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by IFLYJ3
Hi Warren,

This debate has happened many times before and I agree with your thinking. However, the ARRl and FCC does not agree with us. See the below email.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: 50 MHz Radios???
From: Terry Lee
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 02:14:23 -0500

Hi Mark,

Here is a copy of the information I received from the ARRL on this matter:

"Here is the discussion on this topic taken from the latest edition of the
ARRL's FCC Rule Book:



Dan
This is over 2 years old.
ARRL can say or print anything they want to but FCC has the final word.
Many ham radio rules have changed or have been dropped in the las 2 years.
I would suggest that you call FCC and ask them for a current list.
I don't have my call letters on myTX and no one at the club ever said anything.
I also see other hams and they have no call letters on their Xmitters.
If I have time i'll call FCC today and post it here.
AF2Q
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Old 07-24-2003, 09:19 AM
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iflyj3
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by Whirley Bird
This is over 2 years old.
ARRL can say or print anything they want to but FCC has the final word.
Many ham radio rules have changed or have been dropped in the las 2 years.
I would suggest that you call FCC and ask them for a current list.
I don't have my call letters on myTX and no one at the club ever said anything.
I also see other hams and they have no call letters on their Xmitters.
If I have time i'll call FCC today and post it here.
AF2Q
It is not a problem with me since I have quit instructing and does not warrant any further time on my part to argue its points with anyone, including the FCC.

Just because you and others don't comply with the rules, doesn't change the rules. I try to comply for FCC reasons and also, if you violate a FCC rule and have an accident, you have also broken the AMA safety code. This allows the AMA and their insurance carrier an out on insurance coverage.

BTW, most "clubs" don't understand the usage of the ham bands for R/C. I just float flew on Sunday at a club 100 miles away and to them I said. You don't have my frequencies on your control board (53.8 MHZ on that day). To me they said, go ahead and fly and keep your own xmitter. I said to them, OK, but if anyone else shows up and ask the same questions, send them over to me so that we may coordinate our frequencies. So you can see, they would not be aware that your name and address must be on the xmitter!

I am interested in reading your investigation results.

Dan (WB4GUK)
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:04 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by Whirley Bird
This is over 2 years old.
ARRL can say or print anything they want to but FCC has the final word.
Many ham radio rules have changed or have been dropped in the las 2 years.
I would suggest that you call FCC and ask them for a current list.
I don't have my call letters on myTX and no one at the club ever said anything.
I also see other hams and they have no call letters on their Xmitters.
If I have time i'll call FCC today and post it here.
AF2Q

AF2Q,

You need to review the FCC regulations regarding Telecommand (control) of RC aircraft. Your required to have your transmitter labeled with Callsign, Name & Address. It's covered under FCC 97.215a .

It's always been on the Technician Test. Here are just two questions found in the CURRENT Exam Question PooL effective 1 July 2003:

T5B10 (D) [97.215a]
What are the station identification requirements for an amateur transmitter used
for telecommand (control) of model craft?
A. Once every ten minutes
B. Once every ten minutes, and at the beginning and end of each transmission
C. At the beginning and end of each transmission
D. Station identification is not required if the transmitter is labeled with
the station licensee's name, address and call sign


T9B12 (C) [97.215a]
What minimum information must be on a label affixed to a transmitter used for
telecommand (control) of model craft?
A. Station call sign
B. Station call sign and the station licensee's name
C. Station call sign and the station licensee's name and address
D. Station call sign and the station licensee's class of license

You would be surprised how many hams forget this or plain don't know! Pass the word.....

Cal (N3CAL)
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Old 07-26-2003, 10:44 PM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

I would like to get into ham. But no place in my state to get tested.Any help?
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Old 07-26-2003, 11:58 PM
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Whirley Bird
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by thtoyman
I would like to get into ham. But no place in my state to get tested.Any help?
You ask for help and I have 50 states to pick from.
Repost with your City and State.
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Old 07-27-2003, 12:01 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by n3cal
AF2Q,

You would be surprised how many hams forget this or plain don't know! Pass the word.....

Cal (N3CAL)
LOLOL
I called PA on the toll free number and I called Washington,DC.
THEY DON'T KNOW.
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Old 07-27-2003, 01:48 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

n3cal is correct.

If you are operating a R/C transmitter on amateur radio frequencies, your name, address and call sign must be on the transmitter.



I voted against this one and lost a few months ago: Only a ham can operate the transmitter OR trainer radio on amateur radio frequencies.

(Seems strange as an unlicensed operator can operate the Ham's base while he is present, but not so with telecommunications, I guess....)
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Old 07-27-2003, 02:45 AM
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Default Hamm Radio Frequency Pro/Cons...

Originally posted by thtoyman
I would like to get into ham. But no place in my state to get tested.Any help?
thtoyman,

Here is a link to the ARRL Site Exam Search.

http://www.arrl.org/arrlvec/examsearch.phtml

Just enter in your state or zip code and it will give you a list of upcoming exams. I did a quick search for Michigan and got a whole page worth of exams. Hopefully you can find one close to you.

Cal
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Old 07-27-2003, 12:23 PM
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Default ham

Any one know the cost?And if you check use info ,You can see my city and state, Thanks
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Old 07-27-2003, 02:58 PM
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Default Yep, it's that INFAMOUS FCC "Ain't I a Stinker" rule AGAIN....

Dear Fellow RCU'ers:

The PIPE Here once more-and I've heard VOLUMES over the years about the FCC ruling NOT allowing the "Primary Control Operator" provision in the FCC's Part 97 rules for operation of "buddy box" style RC flying, OR other forms of model operation, by ANYONE else but TWO Hams, if the model flying is to be done ON Amateur Radio frequencies!

It's what I've ALWAYS called the INFAMOUS "Ain't I a Stinker" rule,, which has partially ended up barring Hams from doing the "buddy box" routine with a non-Ham, because of that "apparently stupid" rule!

I've been a licensed Technician class Ham since 1978-which means I HAD to take the now-universal...except for CURRENTLY newly-licensed Tech-class Hams...5 word-per-minute Morse Code test way back then to get it in the first place!

My new Gordon Anderson MICROSTAR single stick "built-it-myself" computer RC radios, though, DO have a neat way around the "Ain't I a Stinker" rule-I just put TWO RF decks in each radio, one on 50 MHz AND ONE ON 72 MHz, and THAT way I can just flip a locking toggle switch to start using the 72 MHz RF deck, and THEN I can get around that SILLY Ham radio rule by using 72 MHz on my MicroStars instead whenever I'll want to "buddy-box" to show someone how NICE flying with a single stick radio can be!

And, of course, I get each and every MicroStar single stick computer radio I'll be completing in the next few years narrowband checked-complete with the "gold sticker", before I EVER use it on 72 MHz!

The FMA RFD1FM FM RF deck IS the ONLY RF signal board one would want to do this with, though-as it's apparently the ONLY one that's certified as 'narrowband' ALL by itself! Since the 72 MHz RF decks of virtually EVERY other maker of RC radios can ONLY be used WITH that particular brand of transmitter, FMA has done the "build it yourself RC radio" crowd a real service these days in making these decks available-and partially since Gordon Anderson, the creator of the MicroStar, has agreed to work with FMA in incorporating the MicroStar encoder's design in FMA's upcoming future computer transmitters, a goodly number of MicroStar owners ARE using the FMA RF deck already, with complete success, for 72 MHz flying, and NO other deck seems to be 'in use" on 72 MHz. but the FMA RFD1FM unit, with any 'built-it- yourself" transmitter that is based on the MicroStar board!

So, fellow Hams, don't despair COMPLETELY...with that NICE MicroStar encoder, and a PAIR of FMA's RFD1FM RF decks-one EACH on Ham, and 72 MHz, you can VERY LIKELY get around the "Stinker" rule, by switching to 72 MHz for buddy-box flying...but make certain to get it checked FULLY with someone like Tony Stillman [Radio South] or Joe DuMond FIRST for a "gold sticker" to show it's truly narrowbanded, just like I've done!

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!
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