FAST lock out issues
08-04-2010, 07:49 AM
#51
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RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: DAN AVILLA
I have had a lock out problem on my BVM F100. I was fortunate to work through it. I have been flying it for 7 years and 200+ flights. A little over a year ago I switched my 14mz to 2.4. I flew it about 40 flights on 2.4 with no problems. One day it went dead stick. The turbine is set to shut down on a lock out. After landing it I determined that it went into fail safe. I went home replaced the receiver and up graded both of the 2 year old Ion battery's and regulators thinking that maybe I had a low voltage. I added time to the turbine shut down so I would not have to land dead stick and went out to fly the following week. I took off and all was well then in one of my turns it lock and I was up side down about 50 ft off the deck. I thought that was the end of a great plane. It came out of hold and I saved it. Needles to say I put it on the deck as fast as I can. Next I went home and replaced every servo, wire and up graded the reciever to HS in the plane . I also relocated the antennas higher in the model. The model now has another 50 flights on it with out any problems. The question is what fixed it. The only thing I feel that fix the lock out problem was the 8 year old wiring. All the servos I put in another jet and they work fine. Back when I built it they did not have match box's so I had to run 6 servos on one channel and Y servos together. I did solder my Y's back then rather than using a connector. The wire in the model was not as heavy duty as we have today. When I talked to futaba they said servos and wiring can not cause a fail safe. Back when I was on 72 with my 14mz I had a fail safe problem on another jet and fixed it with the replacement of one strange acting JR servo. I have proof that they did. The Receivers that I was using in the f 100 are currently working well in other jets. I think the moral of the story is to up grade the electronics on old planes. Dan Avilla
I have had a lock out problem on my BVM F100. I was fortunate to work through it. I have been flying it for 7 years and 200+ flights. A little over a year ago I switched my 14mz to 2.4. I flew it about 40 flights on 2.4 with no problems. One day it went dead stick. The turbine is set to shut down on a lock out. After landing it I determined that it went into fail safe. I went home replaced the receiver and up graded both of the 2 year old Ion battery's and regulators thinking that maybe I had a low voltage. I added time to the turbine shut down so I would not have to land dead stick and went out to fly the following week. I took off and all was well then in one of my turns it lock and I was up side down about 50 ft off the deck. I thought that was the end of a great plane. It came out of hold and I saved it. Needles to say I put it on the deck as fast as I can. Next I went home and replaced every servo, wire and up graded the reciever to HS in the plane . I also relocated the antennas higher in the model. The model now has another 50 flights on it with out any problems. The question is what fixed it. The only thing I feel that fix the lock out problem was the 8 year old wiring. All the servos I put in another jet and they work fine. Back when I built it they did not have match box's so I had to run 6 servos on one channel and Y servos together. I did solder my Y's back then rather than using a connector. The wire in the model was not as heavy duty as we have today. When I talked to futaba they said servos and wiring can not cause a fail safe. Back when I was on 72 with my 14mz I had a fail safe problem on another jet and fixed it with the replacement of one strange acting JR servo. I have proof that they did. The Receivers that I was using in the f 100 are currently working well in other jets. I think the moral of the story is to up grade the electronics on old planes. Dan Avilla
08-04-2010, 08:00 AM
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RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: DAN AVILLA
One day it went dead stick. The turbine is set to shut down on a lock out. After landing it I determined that it went into fail safe.
One day it went dead stick. The turbine is set to shut down on a lock out. After landing it I determined that it went into fail safe.
In BF/S you will still have control of the other controls (flight controls). In a hold/failsafe event you will not until the radio sees a good signal. Some ECM units did not like the first generation R6014FS RX due to a different signal voltage that was used.
But I cannot disagree that it is a good idea to keep a watchful eye on the boring old wiring i a plane, especially as it get older. Connectors corrode, etc.
08-04-2010, 08:03 AM
#53
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RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: JeffH
Funny you say that, Airtronics is saying that servos that are starting to go bad can generate excess RF noise and cause their 2.4 system to go into hold. It disturbs me to think that a servo that is starting to die could cause the entire radio to quit. How do you know when a servo STARTS to die? It seems to me like these 2.4 systems, while far superior in some ways, actually can cause an early demise to an airframe that might have otherwise lived until the part that was failing could acutally be seen/felt during PM, or other routine maintenance.
Funny you say that, Airtronics is saying that servos that are starting to go bad can generate excess RF noise and cause their 2.4 system to go into hold. It disturbs me to think that a servo that is starting to die could cause the entire radio to quit. How do you know when a servo STARTS to die? It seems to me like these 2.4 systems, while far superior in some ways, actually can cause an early demise to an airframe that might have otherwise lived until the part that was failing could acutally be seen/felt during PM, or other routine maintenance.
08-04-2010, 08:49 AM
#54
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RE: FAST lock out issues
Servos and bad wiring have ALWAYS been trouble sources. It was well-known in service circles that a bad servo can feed noise back into the receiver, which would then go "crazy". It didn't make any difference whether it was FM-PPM or FM-PCM, the type of feedback would cause erratic operation. Sometimes, RF noise would be generated inside the model from other equipment and cause failsafe or lockout events. And it can happen in the spread-spectrum systems, too.
A "nice" thing about the old AM systems was that any kind of spurious noise would be immediately seen in servos acting up. You'd then have to check what was wrong. The bad thing was that it didn't take much spurious noise at all to affect control. You get a little, you lose a little (unless it's the model, then you lose a lot!).
None of this is "new" with the spread-spectrum systems. Basically, the same things that cause spread-spectrum systems to act up caused the older AM or FM systems to act up....bad incoming signal, bad battery packs, bad wiring, bad servos, damaged equipment, bad installation, uncharged battery packs, bad control setup, sloppy control linkages, and on and on. Nothing new under the sun. The main advantage spread-spectrum systems have is their resistance to many types of radio interference, and the fact that you don't need to check to see if anyone else is operating on "your" channel. Otherwise, same-o same-o.
A "nice" thing about the old AM systems was that any kind of spurious noise would be immediately seen in servos acting up. You'd then have to check what was wrong. The bad thing was that it didn't take much spurious noise at all to affect control. You get a little, you lose a little (unless it's the model, then you lose a lot!).
None of this is "new" with the spread-spectrum systems. Basically, the same things that cause spread-spectrum systems to act up caused the older AM or FM systems to act up....bad incoming signal, bad battery packs, bad wiring, bad servos, damaged equipment, bad installation, uncharged battery packs, bad control setup, sloppy control linkages, and on and on. Nothing new under the sun. The main advantage spread-spectrum systems have is their resistance to many types of radio interference, and the fact that you don't need to check to see if anyone else is operating on "your" channel. Otherwise, same-o same-o.
08-05-2010, 11:22 AM
#56
RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
When you say it went into failsafe, how did you determine this? Also, the 14MZ has two different failsafe settings. One is the low RX voltage Battery Failsafe, which drops the throttle at 3.8 volts on the system, and the regular failsafe which defaults to holding the last good command or goes to a preset failsafe position.
In BF/S you will still have control of the other controls (flight controls). In a hold/failsafe event you will not until the radio sees a good signal. Some ECM units did not like the first generation R6014FS RX due to a different signal voltage that was used.
But I cannot disagree that it is a good idea to keep a watchful eye on the boring old wiring i a plane, especially as it get older. Connectors corrode, etc.
ORIGINAL: DAN AVILLA
One day it went dead stick. The turbine is set to shut down on a lock out. After landing it I determined that it went into fail safe.
One day it went dead stick. The turbine is set to shut down on a lock out. After landing it I determined that it went into fail safe.
In BF/S you will still have control of the other controls (flight controls). In a hold/failsafe event you will not until the radio sees a good signal. Some ECM units did not like the first generation R6014FS RX due to a different signal voltage that was used.
But I cannot disagree that it is a good idea to keep a watchful eye on the boring old wiring i a plane, especially as it get older. Connectors corrode, etc.
08-06-2010, 11:04 PM
#57
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RE: FAST lock out issues
JR/Spektrum have the lock-out issue when they are at some mega fly-in like SEFF.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1234389
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1234389
10-01-2010, 10:20 PM
#58
RE: FAST lock out issues
Well, I just got a 12FG...and now I read about all kinds of crap with this TX...a guy losing TWO jets on the same day, other guys having pitch-down crashes, uncommanded throttle changes with rudder input, debate about poor quality electrical components, etc.
I'm starting to think I f**ked up here. $1400 for a 12Z just isn't in the budget.
I'm starting to think I f**ked up here. $1400 for a 12Z just isn't in the budget.
10-02-2010, 09:35 AM
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RE: FAST lock out issues
Not sure i should even reply but i will..I have had a speck since day one.I havent had a crash since then either so i can say ive had no issues.From foamies to my 33 % no issues in id guess in over 1500 flights.I have never had to REBIND either.I must be lucky ? I use a single transmitter for over 10 models .One thing i dont understand with any radio is why people fly when they get warning signs? A battery failure or bad servo lead will kill a plane with any type of radio.Im am not a speck fan boi as i have several futabas pcm i still use .I was interested in an 8fg but to me they look toyish.Ive always wanted a 14 mz . I started out in the Am radio days so i am super careful on my setups maybe that is why ive had no issues with spectrum.
10-03-2010, 03:40 AM
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RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
Well, I just got a 12FG...and now I read about all kinds of crap with this TX...a guy losing TWO jets on the same day, other guys having pitch-down crashes, uncommanded throttle changes with rudder input, debate about poor quality electrical components, etc.
I'm starting to think I f**ked up here. $1400 for a 12Z just isn't in the budget.
Well, I just got a 12FG...and now I read about all kinds of crap with this TX...a guy losing TWO jets on the same day, other guys having pitch-down crashes, uncommanded throttle changes with rudder input, debate about poor quality electrical components, etc.
I'm starting to think I f**ked up here. $1400 for a 12Z just isn't in the budget.
10-03-2010, 10:58 AM
#62
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RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
The point of my concern is not FASST, servos, installations, etc., it's the 12FG itself. Then again, just like Mighty9, I too have had zero problems with JR/Spektrum/DSM2.
The point of my concern is not FASST, servos, installations, etc., it's the 12FG itself. Then again, just like Mighty9, I too have had zero problems with JR/Spektrum/DSM2.
10-03-2010, 04:42 PM
#63
RE: FAST lock out issues
Wow! I will admit, other than issues with the 12FG tx itself, yoiu sure don't see the complaints here or on other forums with Futaba that you see with JR/Spek, and IMHO it can't be explained away by "there are sooooo many more JR/Spek users, that's why"...not buying it.
At our field we have not seen DSM problems, but it is a wide open square field, each side a mile long, no towers, etc, nearby. We rarely have more than 4 or 5 guys flying at once, and one or two of them are on FM. Just not much there to bother the 'pick and stick' DSM method.
At our field we have not seen DSM problems, but it is a wide open square field, each side a mile long, no towers, etc, nearby. We rarely have more than 4 or 5 guys flying at once, and one or two of them are on FM. Just not much there to bother the 'pick and stick' DSM method.
10-04-2010, 01:26 PM
#66
RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: Bax
What ''issues'' with the Futaba 12FG transmitter? List them, please.
What ''issues'' with the Futaba 12FG transmitter? List them, please.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8653524
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8679687
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9291287
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_96...tm.htm#9656783
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8653587
There are more on a 'Giants Flying' forum and elsewhere....reports of uncommanded throttle with rudder inputs, uncommanded aileron movement, cold solder joints, loose circuit boards.
BTW, I am impressed that as a Futaba Rep you are interested in this. Thanks for following this thread and being willing to look into whether or not the 12FG (again, not FASST itself, just the 12FG) has an inherent flaw...really! I am not at all trying to pick a fight here, I'm just trying to find a setup I can trust without breaking the bank. I was hoping the 12FG was it, but now I'm not so sure.
10-04-2010, 02:36 PM
#67
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RE: FAST lock out issues
Keep in mind that Bax is the manager of the group at Hobby Services that does ALL the Futaba repair and service in North America. As such he likely has the best handle on the actual problems that ended up requiring service. Certainly any major "issues" would be something that the manager of the service department would know about.
Hence his question "what issues"? tends to indicate that he has not seen any widespread systematic issues with the 12FG.
Hence his question "what issues"? tends to indicate that he has not seen any widespread systematic issues with the 12FG.
10-04-2010, 02:55 PM
#68
RE: FAST lock out issues
I saw his signature line and that is EXACTLY what I am hoping for! Explain what the deal was with those crashed jets controlled by a 12FG.
The other side of the coin is neither are the x9303/AR9100 issues widespread. I know of zero JR/Spek issues at the fields I fly at, yet you read about them happening, enough of 'em that made me wonderi I was holding a time bomb with the x9303/AR9100. Would I be next? (yes, yes, with DSM here the issue is not just the possibility of a faulty tx). I ditched the x9303 because of this uncertainty. Sure don't need another time bomb with the 12FG.
To me, the 'most guys have no trouble so odds are all is well with your 12FG', or 'it's just a few guys that have had trouble, so you should be ok' is the WORST possible answer. I'd rather find out, "Heck yes, serial numbers xxxx through yyyy have bad pots or something. Check your number and send it in if it's in this batch." Or, "Yes, the Futaba has reworked the 12FG guts that were potentailly problematic...send yours in for a rework." That would give me peace of mind.
The other side of the coin is neither are the x9303/AR9100 issues widespread. I know of zero JR/Spek issues at the fields I fly at, yet you read about them happening, enough of 'em that made me wonderi I was holding a time bomb with the x9303/AR9100. Would I be next? (yes, yes, with DSM here the issue is not just the possibility of a faulty tx). I ditched the x9303 because of this uncertainty. Sure don't need another time bomb with the 12FG.
To me, the 'most guys have no trouble so odds are all is well with your 12FG', or 'it's just a few guys that have had trouble, so you should be ok' is the WORST possible answer. I'd rather find out, "Heck yes, serial numbers xxxx through yyyy have bad pots or something. Check your number and send it in if it's in this batch." Or, "Yes, the Futaba has reworked the 12FG guts that were potentailly problematic...send yours in for a rework." That would give me peace of mind.
10-04-2010, 11:45 PM
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RE: FAST lock out issues
all those "issues" sound like dumb thumbs hiding under too much pride.!I've seen "uncommanded elevator" turn out to be stripped servo gear train. Thats happens when you use a JR 577 on a Boomerang Elan. And the owner/pilot has 30yrs experience in the hobby, so no i dont buy that arguement as an excuse to blame the equipment either.Of the 12FG users I know, none has ever had a days trouble.
10-05-2010, 07:05 AM
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RE: FAST lock out issues
Not in this part of the world. I asked the agents and the two centres where Futaba can be repaired or serviced and non are aware of any global or local bulletins regarding "issues" with the T12FG.
Even my LHS's aren't awareof issues. The bloke who trashed his Boomerang owns a Hobby shop and flies JR 2.4 and even he admitted that he was pushing the boundaries of the servo capabilities.
In our flying community, there are very few issues but when there are they tend to be on the lower end of the Spectrum (see what I did there).
Sure there are Futaba radios that have a pot go bad or wiring works loose because the owner does not tke care of their kit or they simply open the back and short out the board because they left the battery in, but no official defects.
I'd qut worrying about your investment and start to make it earn is keep. The T12Fg is probably the best Transmitter on the market today.
Even my LHS's aren't awareof issues. The bloke who trashed his Boomerang owns a Hobby shop and flies JR 2.4 and even he admitted that he was pushing the boundaries of the servo capabilities.
In our flying community, there are very few issues but when there are they tend to be on the lower end of the Spectrum (see what I did there).
Sure there are Futaba radios that have a pot go bad or wiring works loose because the owner does not tke care of their kit or they simply open the back and short out the board because they left the battery in, but no official defects.
I'd qut worrying about your investment and start to make it earn is keep. The T12Fg is probably the best Transmitter on the market today.
10-05-2010, 08:05 AM
#72
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RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
Thanks for the info. That's why I'm asking here about the 12FG...is there something to this alleged ''problem'' with it or not
Thanks for the info. That's why I'm asking here about the 12FG...is there something to this alleged ''problem'' with it or not
I have observed that the Internet acts like a magnifying glass in that it makes problems appear larger than they really are. Look at the links posted above. Most point to posts from the same fellow. Another interesting phenomenon I have observed is that a small number of people seem to account for the lion's share of issues. I am not sure what that means, but it is something I have observed.
In the end, every radio has the potential to have an issue. Anything made by humans has some baseline failure rate. I bought a $2,000 TV once that poofed the first time I turned it on. It can happen. There is no such thing as 100% reliability for anything.
As far as the 12FG goes, I have not seen anything that makes me think there is some systematic issue with it. The reports of people with no issues are far greater, but generate less noise, than the reports of issues. If you are uncertain about yours, send it in to be looked over. Perhaps that will give you some peace of mind. I know every 12FG I have seen has performed flawlessly.
10-05-2010, 08:13 AM
#73
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RE: FAST lock out issues
I think I may be missing something the allegation was that the 12FG was the cause of specific mishaps. Bax then asked for someone to point out what issues and to list them. For someone who loses a plane to say they have lost confidence in their equipment is one thing but, it is very different to allege specific failures to specific brands. If you have specific evidence then say so and if not then man up and say so.
My take on the evidence listed above is that there were crashes, they were using a certain brand of equipment and to date there is no established cause of the crash. To leap to blaming a specific component failure sounds a lot like Joe Biden explaining how effective the stimulus has been.
Howard
My take on the evidence listed above is that there were crashes, they were using a certain brand of equipment and to date there is no established cause of the crash. To leap to blaming a specific component failure sounds a lot like Joe Biden explaining how effective the stimulus has been.
Howard
10-05-2010, 10:20 AM
#74
RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
In the end, every radio has the potential to have an issue. Anything made by humans has some baseline failure rate.
As far as the 12FG goes, I have not seen anything that makes me think there is some systematic issue with it... I know every 12FG I have seen has performed flawlessly.
In the end, every radio has the potential to have an issue. Anything made by humans has some baseline failure rate.
As far as the 12FG goes, I have not seen anything that makes me think there is some systematic issue with it... I know every 12FG I have seen has performed flawlessly.
10-05-2010, 10:35 AM
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RE: FAST lock out issues
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
Absolutely, and that's all I'm asking about here...is this 12FG I bought a flawed design or is it worth keeping, factoring in nothing man-made will always be flawless.
ORIGINAL: Silent-AV8R
In the end, every radio has the potential to have an issue. Anything made by humans has some baseline failure rate.
As far as the 12FG goes, I have not seen anything that makes me think there is some systematic issue with it... I know every 12FG I have seen has performed flawlessly.
In the end, every radio has the potential to have an issue. Anything made by humans has some baseline failure rate.
As far as the 12FG goes, I have not seen anything that makes me think there is some systematic issue with it... I know every 12FG I have seen has performed flawlessly.
Based on everything I know and have seen or heard it is the latter and not the former. Have there been problems reported with the 12FG? Sure. Is it a faulty design? Absolutely not.