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-   RC Radios, Transmitters, Receivers, Servos, gyros (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-radios-transmitters-receivers-servos-gyros-157/)
-   -   Airplane rudder gyro (http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-radios-transmitters-receivers-servos-gyros-157/6056543-airplane-rudder-gyro.html)

Ben Lanterman 05-10-2011 12:19 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
I did the same thing at the Mint Julep scale contest last year. I was flying the big Ju-52 that I have and the gyro is on the flaps switch - which is a 3 function switch. Forward is gyro off and the two positions to the rear are gyro on. After takeoff I flipped the switch but not all the way forward - so I was into the flight with a rudder that wanted to point only one direction! My caller thought I was nuts and I was fighting the airplane wondering what the heck had gone wrong.

After a couple of minutes my caller remembered to remind me to check the gyro. Sure enough when I turned it off the airplane flew like the big trainer it normally flies like. Live and learn.

A couple of times at the home field, with the gyro in an aerobatic machine, I would forget and on the first attempt at turning I would find the airplane trying to do a knife edge or something! After awhile you tend to remember.

It is worth the effort to get the great takeoffs.

Ben

landeck 05-10-2011 12:25 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
You had better believe I will never do that again:D. And I was very lucky to get the plane back down safely.

Bruce

Silverexpress 05-10-2011 12:39 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
This past weekend I was trying out my newly installed flaps on a PZ Wildcat. This one has three gyros in it, and I had the aileron gyro on the 3 position flap switch until this weekend. To try out the flaps I decided to put them on the 3 position switch, and re-direct the gyro to the Aux 2 2-position switch.

It's interesting how automatic we can become. My first flight up I instinctively switched my aileron's from Rate to Off using the 3 position switch, but instead this put my flaps to full down.
The plane slowed down to a near hover, and I thought it was just the wind. I banked it into a turn, and down she went into a tip stall. Luckily I wasn't that high up yet.

Replaced the prop, re-assigned the switches, and all was well for the rest of that windy day.

pjwright 06-19-2011 03:07 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
Thanks to all who've posted on this very informative thread.

My question is equipment-specific. I got an MKS GY-292 "head-lock" gyro from Hobbyking just to dip my toe in the water, so to speak. It is on the rudder channel (of a big tail-dragger), with the gain wire plugged in to channel 5 on the Rx, and mapped to the "trainer" switch on my Futaba 10CAG Tx. I liked the idea of using the spring-loaded switch to keep the gyro in "rate mode" at less than 10% as the default, and then set the AVC "head hold" function at about 50% sensitivity when the switch is pulled back.

The gyro is mounted "vertically" (as indicated in the instructions for helicopter head-holding).... driving a Hitec HS-755 analog servo.

What I'm experiencing is almost no rudder control when moving the stick [and I cannot perceive any servo movement when I turn the fuselage from side to side]. Do I need to adjust the manual gain on the pot located on the face of the gyro to influence that?

I also tried mapping the gyro to the 3-position flap switch, with center "off" (zero sensitivity), up as rate-mode, and down as head hold mode. Same issue.

Booting up the gyro with Tx in rate or head-hold mode doesn't seem to make any difference, either.

Any thoughts on what I'm doing wrong here? [:o]
Thanks,
PJ

BarracudaHockey 06-20-2011 05:35 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
The "gain" knob on that gyro functions as a servo limit, you set your end points in the radio to 100/100 for you rudder channel and then use that pot to set the rudder throw.

You must boot that gyro in heading hold mode and not move the model till the light comes on solid, then you can go to rate mode.

Move the airplane in all axis to make sure you have it mounted correctly.

dditch 06-20-2011 05:45 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
A re-written version of the 292 gyro is located here:
http://www.mycoolheli.com/mks292.html

I have the 292 in my Extra 330L-EP right now, Just like Baracuda says, init in HH mode, fly in Rate.

It will flicker until initialized.
This gyro is what I call a Label Sideways gyro. as per this table:
http://www.mycoolrc.com/gyro/gyroLINKS.html

For rudder control, label facing sideways (forward,back, left right, does not matter initially). Then the wires need to come off facing sideways as well.
If the gyro needs reversing, you rotate flip the gyro 180 degrees while stilll maintaining wires and label facing sideways and not top/bottom.
Gyros w/o a revers switch or those that are not CUBE shaped, I find are harder for the novice to set up. Not impossible but just not straight forwards.
That's why I like the GY48V cause it's flat cube shape and reverse switch lend itself to being easy to setup. It also can init in Rate mode so you can do that easier too.

fishkillbill 06-26-2011 06:24 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
I'm having a lot of trouble holding heading on take off roll with my Hanger 9 1/4 Cub. I do have an old Futaba GY240 and a Hobby King TG380 gyro. Doe's anyone think I could use either of these just for takeoff and then shout it off? If not, is there a better one I can buy?

BarracudaHockey 06-26-2011 10:18 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
I don't know about the Hobby King gyro but the 240 has no provision for remote control or gain

pjwright 06-26-2011 10:34 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
How're things in Fishkill, Bill? My brother used to live in Putnam County - now he's across the river in Nanuet.
The GY48V gyro that dditch demonstrated earlier in the thread is on sale at Hobbypartz for about $13:
http://www.hobbypartz.com/60p-dy-1017.html
It worked for him ... and I just got one to experiment with. Had no success with the MKS model, but that's probably my fault.
;)
PJ

mikejbb 06-26-2011 02:12 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
Is this your HK gyro? The Turnigy TG380 gyro is excellent for planes, and a great way to make your aircraft more stable. Gyro includes signal wire for on/off control from the radio. (Requires spare channel) A great way to control difficult jets or planes in windy conditions!

If so it does have the control line so you can turn it off after takeoff. But it doesn't say it's head hold, so it wouldn't be so good in you application (takeoffs and landings).

The HK401 and HK MEMS GA-250 are better suited for your purposes.

The Hobby King MEMS GA-250 ($10+ship) is a high-performance tail-lock gyro specially optimized and designed for RC 3D helicopters. The GA-250 Gyro is the most competitively priced MEMS 250 class gyro on the RC market today!

I use two of the GA-250's in my Horizon Hobby Extra 300 to help with harriers... but I have it setup to only be on when throttle is half or less.

Mike
Hobby King HB-F-06 RC Sailboat Phantom-1.89m 1.7kg ballast
ParkZone F-27Q Stryker, ParkZone Extra 300 with 2 gyros, ParkZone Wildcat,
ParkZone Sukhoi BL 2 cells, 6' EZGlider with BL launch motor and FPV camera and Tx
Super Cub BL wt ailerons wt Turnigy lights for night flying, Tx DX7
Function over ALL else
my photography: http://BesPhoto.com


dditch 06-26-2011 04:34 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
[link=http://www.mycoolrc.com/gyro/indexnew.html]Set up airplane gyro[/link]I"ve used the TG380 a couple times w/o the signal wire that is SUPPOSED to shut it off. I could not get it to shut off. Some people say they have gotten it to work. I just got in 2 more. I tried to install one in my foam T-28 and almost would have crashed it but during ground testing, I found the signal input was intermittant. I opened it up and the signal wire was desolded, the pad lifted up from the circuit board. I KNOW I did not pull on it so it was a defect.
The GA-250 is a good gyro, but not the easiest to set up. Non-helicopter people may get confused but it does work well.
BTW, I contend that RATE mode is best for the rudder because it does not negate a good ability to still control the tail on take off, plus once you get the setup done, it's less likely to cause a problem for the novice. I have all my tail gyros set up in rate mode but I still find it best to shut off (low rate mode gain) in flight.

I have the setup info on the GY48V and tail rudder here:
[link=http://www.mycoolrc.com/gyro/indexnew.html]set up airplane gyro[/link]

fishkillbill 06-27-2011 01:21 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
OK, I just ordered two Detrum GY48V gyros for $25.40. That included free shipping.

Bill

fishkillbill 07-07-2011 01:43 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
I received the gyros. Now I'm trying to figure out how to get them to work.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkG66t9Cioc
BillL

RHarding 08-03-2011 05:17 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
Will someone please send me step by step instructions on installing and set up of a Futaba GY401 gyro on the rudder of my Clip Wing Monocoupe!!!!!!! My transmitter is a Futaba 10C, receiver is a Futaba 6008HS, and the rudder servo is a Hitec HS5645MG digital. I've got three Coupes and I don't think I've ever flown an airplane that was as squirley on the take off roll. Of course, the full scale Coupe was very similar.

Thanks,

Richard

dditch 08-03-2011 05:43 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
I don't know that radio but if someone else does not send you info, Here's something to watch.
I highly encourage you to LEARN how gyros work so that you don't get caught making a mistake by block copying the setup.
You should be able to set the gain up on your gear channel switch similar to the DX7 on the videos. If you have a helicopter guy at your club, he may be able to do some hands on help.

Rudder Gyro is the first link.
http://www.mycoolrc.com/gyro/indexnew.html

dasintex 08-03-2011 05:57 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: RHarding

Will someone please send me step by step instructions on installing and set up of a Futaba GY401 gyro on the rudder of my Clip Wing Monocoupe!!!!!!! My transmitter is a Futaba 10C, receiver is a Futaba 6008HS, and the rudder servo is a Hitec HS5645MG digital. I've got three Coupes and I don't think I've ever flown an airplane that was as squirley on the take off roll. Of course, the full scale Coupe was very similar.

Thanks,

Richard
I have this exact set up, I have a 10C but a 350 GYA Gyro, same set up as the 401; I'm at work and can't recall the right sequence of programing, I will get it together and PM you when I get home.

dditch 08-03-2011 05:58 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 

Quote:

ORIGINAL: dasintex


Quote:

ORIGINAL: RHarding

Will someone please send me step by step instructions on installing and set up of a Futaba GY401 gyro on the rudder of my Clip Wing Monocoupe!!!!!!! My transmitter is a Futaba 10C, receiver is a Futaba 6008HS, and the rudder servo is a Hitec HS5645MG digital. I've got three Coupes and I don't think I've ever flown an airplane that was as squirley on the take off roll. Of course, the full scale Coupe was very similar.

Thanks,

Richard
I have this exact set up, I have a 10C but a 350 GYA Gyro, same set up as the 401; I'm at work and can't recall the right sequence of programing, I will get it together and PM you when I get home.
Can you also post to the thread for the benefit of other viewers?
thx

dasintex 08-03-2011 06:05 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
You bet!

Big_Bird 08-03-2011 07:27 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
Richard, I am using a Hitec HS-635HB analog servo on the rudder. The transmitter is a Futaba 10C and the receiver is a Futaba R617FS. From the Futaba GY-401 manual: •DS switch setting precaution: When the DS switch is set to the ON position, the rudder servo is driven by approximately 270Hz high-speed pulses. This mode is for use with Futaba digital servos only.
When using servos that are not compatible with high-speed pulse drive, other than digital servos, never set the DS switch to ON. The servo may be destroyed.

Gyro setup for a 1/3 scale Bucker Jungmeister

On Futaba GY-401 gyro
(DS) off, (DIR) off
(DELAY) 0.0, (LIMIT) 100
Plug sensitivity connector into receiver CH 6.

On Futaba 10C transmitter
CH 4 (RUDDER) END POINT 100 100
CH 4 Revers = Reverse
CH 4 D/R,EXP D/R 90% 90%, EXP -40% -40%, SW1 B, SW2 -
CH 6 (FLAP) END POINT 100 100
Ch 6 Revers = Normal
CH 6 (FLAP) Knob VR(A) 0 (mid travel) Very important
P-MIX3 OFS FLAP, RATE +70, MIX *, LINK OFF, MASTER OFST, SW SwC, SLAVE CH6, POSI UP
P-MIX4 OFS FLAP, RATE -70, MIX *, LINK OFF, MASTER OFST, SW SwC, SLAVE CH6, POSI DOWN
* Note: MIX is controlled by the position of SW-C

Turn transmitter on with SW-C UP (AVCS Mode).
Turn receiver switches on.
After rapid blinking stops turn SW-C DOWN (Normal mode).
Start engine and taxi out. Line up on the runway.
Flip SW-C UP.
**Rapidly cycle the rudder stick 3 times left and right. Stop in center. This initializes the gyro.
Takeoff but don’t touch the rudder.
When the plane clears the runway put SW-C in (OFF) Center or (Normal) Down.
I fly the rest of the flight with SW-C (Normal) Down. Normal is RATE Mode.
** This step may not be necessary although it is mentioned in the GY-401 instructions. Comments please.

dasintex 08-03-2011 06:49 PM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
I read over Ken's set up and I will present mine as it is different, others may chime in. The only thing I don't know is the settings for the Futaba GY401 GYRO since I use a Futaba GYA350 GYRO, whereas Ken outlined these. The radio set up should be the same for either Gyro.

On the 10C, this is what I did and it works for me.

Push the Mode button twice, scroll or toggle down to get to 'Gyro Sense', click on this.

MIX-1 set to 'ON'
MIX-2 set to 'INH'

Scroll down and change CH(Channel) to 'CH7' (I use CH7, because I use CH5 for Landing Gear and CH6 for flaps) set END POINTS to 100.

Scroll down to SW(switch assignment) and chose 'E' (this can be any switch, I use 'E', because its on the left side of the Radio and I don't have to use my right hand which would be busy flying the aircraft).

For my preference and you can change it to your preference, depending on which direction you want to move the switch to turn the GYRO 'ON' or 'OFF', I prefer to push the switch(in my case 'E') forward to turn the GYRO 'OFF', and pull backward to turn the GYRO 'ON'.

Therefore using my preference the following:

Move Switch 'E' forward, 'UP' will be highlighted on the screen, rotate knob till '0%' shows for 'UP' setting(it will rotate from 'NOR or AVC 100% to '0%' to AVC or NOR 100%)forward on Switch 'E' will now will turn GYRO OFF.

Move Switch 'E' backwards, 'DOWN' will be highlighted on the screen, for my preference, I use the 'AVC or Angular Vector Control'; some prefer Normal, arguments for or against, again your choice, try one way then reprogram to try other way, rotate knob till you have AVC-100%, backward on Switch 'E' will now turn GYRO 'ON' in AVC Mode.

Now, locate the 4 wire lead(Yellow, Blue, Red, Balck, color coding per the 350GY Gyro, maybe the same for the 401) Plug the single yellow wire/red plug colored GYRO Sensitivity wire/lead into Channel 7 on the RX and Plug the other remaining 3 wire(Blue,Red,Black) lead into the rudder channel #4.

Plug your Rudder Servo lead into the remaining separate 3 wire(Blue,Red,Black) lead.

Again not sure of the GYRO settings on the 401 such as 'G-GAIN Gyro Sensitivity' or 'C-CONTROL- how much you want the gyro to rotate the servo', but I think set your 401 up like Ken suggested; I have mine set for GAIN at 75 and CONTROL at 125, and each plane is set up differently you have to try it out and adjust accordingly, for example, if the servo moves too much there may be too much GAIN, etc.

Here's what I do to use the GYRO.

1/ Place Switch 'E' backward, or GYRO ON(in AVC Mode)
2/ Turn on Transmitter
3/ Turn on Receiver
4/ GRYO will initiate, DO NOT Touch aircraft or wiggle any control sticks, usually 5 seconds, or when the led stops blinking on the GYRO; GYRO is finding neutral or zeroing.
5/ Turn GYRO off, place Switch 'E' forward
6/ Start Engine, taxi out to center line, line aircraft up to as center and straight to the center line as possible.
7/ When you are lined up and ready to go, turn GYRO ON, Switch 'E' backwards(Ken suggested cycling rudder stick 3 times left and right, I don't do this and it still works for me, but either way would work, as long as you are lined up nice and straight)
8/ Advance Throttle, DO NOT USE RUDDER, lift off when speed reached, once in the air, turn GYRO off, Switch 'E' forward, you can now use the rudder.

A couple of other points,

Make sure the Direction Switch is in the correct position for your set up, read the instruction that came with the GYRO for further info.

KEN and others use a 3 position switch like 'C' or 'G', they set it up where they key in NOR at 100% in the UP position, CNTR - nothing, and AVC at 100% in the DOWN position, the problem with this as I see it, AVC generally works the best, NOR or Normal Mode does not work that good, after you take off, you turn the GYRO off, on a 3 position switch you would have to flip the switch to the center to turn it off, if you flipped it further you would set the GYRO to NOR and the GYRO would still remain 'ON' in the Normal Mode and this could cause you to lose control, so I use a 2 position switch and just key in 0% on the NOR setting or UP position, and since I only use a ON or OFF switch(2 position) therefore the GYRO is either ON or OFF, no chance to slip into NOR and remain on and operating; if we don't need or use Normal Mode than why make it available.

Also, not sure what batteries you use, but the voltage needs to be regulated to 4.5 or 6 Volts, the 401 says 6 Volts, I regulate my 350 to 4.5; I was having problems with one of my planes that used 6 Volt batteries, because the voltage was higher when freshly charged and the GYRO wouldn't work right.

I hope this helps, feel free to ask if you have any problems.

Doug.

Big_Bird 08-09-2011 06:32 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
1 Attachment(s)
Hi Doug, thanks for the comments but I must admit you confused me somewhat. When I posted the setup for the 10C I tried to show exactly what you see on the programming screen as you set up each parameter. My assumption was that an individual could program the 10C if given the correct data input. That is why I tried to be precise with the data. On my Jungmeister I used channel 6 (flaps) because that channel is free. I do use channel 7 with mixing for the second elevator half and since the receiver is only a 7 channel receiver I can't use channel 8. I really do like the use of the NORMAL (RATE) for all of my flying because it smooths out rudder action especially during gusty weather.

Why do you mention that you put MIX-2 to INH since you are not using it for gyro operation? How is MIX-1 setup? You did not specify. You mentioned turning the knob (VR(B) I assume) to 0 when SW-E is forward to turn gyro to OFF and to 100 when SW-E is back to turn on AVCS/heading hold (AVCS is Futaba's term for angular velocity control). Does that mean that you must flip SW-E and turn the knob when going from AVCS to OFF then do the reverse when going from OFF to AVCS? Do you leave the knob in one position at all times and just move SW-E? What position (100 or 0)? Doug, I re-read your post over many times and I'm still confused. Maybe it is just me.

I'm a bit surprised that Richard has not jumped back in here after asking for the help. Maybe he is just on vacation.


dasintex 08-09-2011 06:59 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
The Knob I'm referring to is the Programing knob, not a assigned Switch Knob, only needed to scroll around on the programming screen, functions, set limits, etc; when you are on the Gyro Sens function you use the Knob to rotate a value from 0% to 100%, 0% would not give any signal or remain off, etc; as far as MIX 1 & 2; when you go GYRO Sens and click on it, that's what is displayed on the screen.

All I know is that when I use this method it works for all my Gyro Planes; I havn't heard from Richard, he PM's me and said he was going to try it this week.

Doug.

Big_Bird 08-09-2011 07:16 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
Thanks Doug for the explanation and quick reply. Since I initially set up the gyro for use on a Futaba 8UAP transmitter without Gyro Sens I simply converted the data over to the 10C transmitter.

dasintex 08-09-2011 07:41 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
Yes, you are correct, the method you described is correct as well, I learned my method from a guy here on RCU on the 40 Size Decathlon Thread, but it works for me; and I noticed you like the Normal setting whereas I prefferred the AVCS, which I thought stood for Angular Vector Control, as long as it works, right; I recalled the guy explained it to me in a posting, and I was confused until I walked through it a few times.

Walk through my method on your 10C on an unused Model and see what happens, or to see what I'm talking about more visually.

Doug.

Big_Bird 08-09-2011 08:27 AM

RE: Airplane rudder gyro
 
1 Attachment(s)
Yes Doug, I prefer the Normal mode for all flight and the AVCS mode for all takeoffs. I'll take a look at gyro sens.

If you don't have a copy of the GYA350 manual I'll be glad to send you a copy in PDF format. Just PM me your e-mail address. By the way, are you going to Bomber Field this year?


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