Schumacher Fusion and GTR
03-11-2009, 01:52 PM
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Schumacher Fusion and GTR
Hi,
I own both the Fusion .21 and the (Menace) GTR .21, I've run both in properly and both fail to reach any high speeds, neither will ever reach high RPM in the third gear; at first I just thought I had done something wrong with the settings or run in or that I had somehow ruined the engines in both cars, but since then I've heard from others and seen other Fusions and GTRs, and I'm told that the stock engine simply isn't powerful enough to reach high RPMs in third gear.
At first I actually thought the gearing wasn't high enough but obviously even the stock gearing is too high. Both cars are available with three different sets, but putting on the high speed (top speed) gear only makes the car even slower.
Now what I want is to replace the engine in one or both cars, I don't use these cars as track cars so I don't really care about track-wise performance (although that would be nice too, why not?):
1: The engine must obviously fit the Fusion and/or GTR.
2: The engine must reach very high RPM, i.e. ~40 000 RPM due to the gearing, a lower redline would give the car less top speed (given that we assume the engine is able to reach its top RPM).
3: The engine must produce enough torque and horsepower to be able to reach its ~40 000 RPM redline while sitting in the GTR and/or Fusion with the highest gearing available.
4: Obviously I would like this to be not incredibly expensive, but I don't expect this power engines to be cheap.
Now, the .21 ABC Pro Engine, Thunder Tiger engine in both cars is supposedly able to produce 2.1 horsepower on the crank which I thought was impressive, however, I'm told it barely produces half that in the real world. So what alternatives are there? How do you know if a given engine will fit the Fusion/GTR? Where would you go to see what an engine _really_ produces? It seems to me what the manufacturer claims is sheer nonsense in some cases, but anyway: What fits, what is powerful enough and what should I buy, and why?
Thanks in advance, any ideas appreciated! :-)
I own both the Fusion .21 and the (Menace) GTR .21, I've run both in properly and both fail to reach any high speeds, neither will ever reach high RPM in the third gear; at first I just thought I had done something wrong with the settings or run in or that I had somehow ruined the engines in both cars, but since then I've heard from others and seen other Fusions and GTRs, and I'm told that the stock engine simply isn't powerful enough to reach high RPMs in third gear.
At first I actually thought the gearing wasn't high enough but obviously even the stock gearing is too high. Both cars are available with three different sets, but putting on the high speed (top speed) gear only makes the car even slower.
Now what I want is to replace the engine in one or both cars, I don't use these cars as track cars so I don't really care about track-wise performance (although that would be nice too, why not?):
1: The engine must obviously fit the Fusion and/or GTR.
2: The engine must reach very high RPM, i.e. ~40 000 RPM due to the gearing, a lower redline would give the car less top speed (given that we assume the engine is able to reach its top RPM).
3: The engine must produce enough torque and horsepower to be able to reach its ~40 000 RPM redline while sitting in the GTR and/or Fusion with the highest gearing available.
4: Obviously I would like this to be not incredibly expensive, but I don't expect this power engines to be cheap.
Now, the .21 ABC Pro Engine, Thunder Tiger engine in both cars is supposedly able to produce 2.1 horsepower on the crank which I thought was impressive, however, I'm told it barely produces half that in the real world. So what alternatives are there? How do you know if a given engine will fit the Fusion/GTR? Where would you go to see what an engine _really_ produces? It seems to me what the manufacturer claims is sheer nonsense in some cases, but anyway: What fits, what is powerful enough and what should I buy, and why?
Thanks in advance, any ideas appreciated! :-)
03-11-2009, 02:05 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
http://www.wolfpackradicals.com makes adjustable motor mounts so you can put different motors in your fusion up to a .28. Wolf also made a hop up kit to improve some of the fusions weak points like the clutch also the chassis included converts your fusion to bump start. But the problem you are going to run into is the rest of basic components , like the ball bearing and clutch are so weak they will not hold up to the increase in rpms, torque and power. Do yourself a favor and sell them both , the high output motors will tear them up.
03-11-2009, 09:06 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
ORIGINAL: nitrohead5300
WolfpackRadicals makes adjustable motor mounts so you can put different motors in your fusion up to a .28. But the problem you are going to run into is the basic components , like the ball bearing and clutch are so weak they will not hold up to the increase in rpms, torque and power. Do yourself a favor and sell them , the high output motors will tear them up.
WolfpackRadicals makes adjustable motor mounts so you can put different motors in your fusion up to a .28. But the problem you are going to run into is the basic components , like the ball bearing and clutch are so weak they will not hold up to the increase in rpms, torque and power. Do yourself a favor and sell them , the high output motors will tear them up.
Are you talking about the ball bearings in the wheels? I have run my GTR and Fusion with the third gear disabled (and only first gear too, just to try it) and that never broke anything.
I would be more concerned about the belt, but I don't really care if it wears out faster, the difference in speed (speed of the belt) isn't that great.
It might be true that the ball bearings don't handle that high speeds, but how do you know that for sure? And how much abuse can they take? Maybe they don't have any problem at all with higher speeds for all we know.
And the clutch? Well, my Fusion can spin its tires (rubber, not foam) and that means the clutch can already take maximum stress of what the tires can provide. If you increase the horsepower or torque of the engine without increasing the grip, then there will not be an increase in stress on the clutch either.
So in short I just don't agree with you at all, and I would like to try with a better engine, because I've heard of others doing it with success too.
EDIT:
Just as a side note, I've put an electric 2 kW system in a very cheap and small 1:12 Lancer SP3 car, and I've put 8-turn engines running 3-cell LiPo that were so powerful and go so hot that the wires melted right off the motor I was told by others that "Forget it, you're going to melt the gearbox", none of that happened, and nothing else broke. I've run that car quite a bit since. Not that this has anything to do with the Fusion and GTR but I want to point out that there are some cars that can take a lot of modification and abuse without burning up.
And besides, why would Schumacher create higher greating kits for their cars if they can't handle the power required?
03-12-2009, 07:59 AM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
I have had 3 Fusions I know the kit ball bearing are cheap and do not last if you really run your car. I replaced mine with boca bearings. The clutch will hold up fairly well with the stock motor but not with a highly modified motor it slips. And your 3-speed tranny becomes a 2-speed with a highly modified motor because the torque of the motor causes it to start in second. Since the tranny is non adjustable you cant compensaite for that. When I started putting highly modfified motors in my Fusions was when the reliability problems occured. But don't take my word for it just sharing my experiences with you you may have better luck so go for it. I mean you could make it really run if you have the desire but it is gonna take alot of work and time to correct all of its short comings. Here is a picture of my Wolfpack Fusion with RB modified RB .21 motor, wolf adapters for 1/8 scale tires, modified clutch and special belt and pulley system to reduce rotational mass and friction on the drivetrain. All time best 90 mph almost drove it outta site to reach that speed, average speed 88mph. 
03-12-2009, 01:04 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
ORIGINAL: nitrohead5300
I have had 3 Fusions I know the kit ball bearing are cheap and do not last if you really run your car. I replaced mine with boca bearings. The clutch will hold up fairly well with the stock motor but not with a highly modified motor it slips. And your 3-speed tranny becomes a 2-speed with a highly modified motor because the torque of the motor causes it to start in second. Since the tranny is non adjustable you cant compensaite for that. When I started putting highly modfified motors in my Fusions was when the reliability problems occured. But don't take my word for it just sharing my experiences with you you may have better luck so go for it. I mean you could make it really run if you have the desire but it is gonna take alot of work and time to correct all of its short comings. Here is a picture of my Wolfpack Fusion with RB modified RB .21 motor, wolf adapters for 1/8 scale tires, modified clutch and special belt and pulley system to reduce rotational mass and friction on the drivetrain. All time best 90 mph almost drove it outta site to reach that speed, average speed 88mph.
I have had 3 Fusions I know the kit ball bearing are cheap and do not last if you really run your car. I replaced mine with boca bearings. The clutch will hold up fairly well with the stock motor but not with a highly modified motor it slips. And your 3-speed tranny becomes a 2-speed with a highly modified motor because the torque of the motor causes it to start in second. Since the tranny is non adjustable you cant compensaite for that. When I started putting highly modfified motors in my Fusions was when the reliability problems occured. But don't take my word for it just sharing my experiences with you you may have better luck so go for it. I mean you could make it really run if you have the desire but it is gonna take alot of work and time to correct all of its short comings. Here is a picture of my Wolfpack Fusion with RB modified RB .21 motor, wolf adapters for 1/8 scale tires, modified clutch and special belt and pulley system to reduce rotational mass and friction on the drivetrain. All time best 90 mph almost drove it outta site to reach that speed, average speed 88mph.
Did you measure the speed with a radar gun?
Would it be possible for you to give me a list of the items you've bought to modify your Fusion into that of maybe you even would have bought different parts yourself if you could do it again, now that you have more experience? I'd really like to attempt something similar.
Those foam tires look like they have massive grip, do you use it as a track car too?
Wouldn't it be better to use slim tires with less drag when performing top speed exercises? Do you have a custom body for it? I imagine the frontal area and drag coefficient on the body would affect the top speed as it does in every other top speed application.
03-12-2009, 05:05 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
ORIGINAL: nano__
Very impressive. Thanks for sharing.
Did you measure the speed with a radar gun?
Would it be possible for you to give me a list of the items you've bought to modify your Fusion into that of maybe you even would have bought different parts yourself if you could do it again, now that you have more experience? I'd really like to attempt something similar.
Those foam tires look like they have massive grip, do you use it as a track car too?
Wouldn't it be better to use slim tires with less drag when performing top speed exercises? Do you have a custom body for it? I imagine the frontal area and drag coefficient on the body would affect the top speed as it does in every other top speed application.
ORIGINAL: nitrohead5300
I have had 3 Fusions I know the kit ball bearing are cheap and do not last if you really run your car. I replaced mine with boca bearings. The clutch will hold up fairly well with the stock motor but not with a highly modified motor it slips. And your 3-speed tranny becomes a 2-speed with a highly modified motor because the torque of the motor causes it to start in second. Since the tranny is non adjustable you cant compensaite for that. When I started putting highly modfified motors in my Fusions was when the reliability problems occured. But don't take my word for it just sharing my experiences with you you may have better luck so go for it. I mean you could make it really run if you have the desire but it is gonna take alot of work and time to correct all of its short comings. Here is a picture of my Wolfpack Fusion with RB modified RB .21 motor, wolf adapters for 1/8 scale tires, modified clutch and special belt and pulley system to reduce rotational mass and friction on the drivetrain. All time best 90 mph almost drove it outta site to reach that speed, average speed 88mph.
I have had 3 Fusions I know the kit ball bearing are cheap and do not last if you really run your car. I replaced mine with boca bearings. The clutch will hold up fairly well with the stock motor but not with a highly modified motor it slips. And your 3-speed tranny becomes a 2-speed with a highly modified motor because the torque of the motor causes it to start in second. Since the tranny is non adjustable you cant compensaite for that. When I started putting highly modfified motors in my Fusions was when the reliability problems occured. But don't take my word for it just sharing my experiences with you you may have better luck so go for it. I mean you could make it really run if you have the desire but it is gonna take alot of work and time to correct all of its short comings. Here is a picture of my Wolfpack Fusion with RB modified RB .21 motor, wolf adapters for 1/8 scale tires, modified clutch and special belt and pulley system to reduce rotational mass and friction on the drivetrain. All time best 90 mph almost drove it outta site to reach that speed, average speed 88mph.
Did you measure the speed with a radar gun?
Would it be possible for you to give me a list of the items you've bought to modify your Fusion into that of maybe you even would have bought different parts yourself if you could do it again, now that you have more experience? I'd really like to attempt something similar.
Those foam tires look like they have massive grip, do you use it as a track car too?
Wouldn't it be better to use slim tires with less drag when performing top speed exercises? Do you have a custom body for it? I imagine the frontal area and drag coefficient on the body would affect the top speed as it does in every other top speed application.
03-12-2009, 05:16 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
ORIGINAL: nitrohead5300
..............I sunk alot of money into getting that motor modified . My car was radared by a policeman. You can get most of the hop ups with the Wolfpackradicals fusion conversion package and I would used kawahara 40mm wide tires for the rear and 30mm wide tires for the front that way you don't have to buy the 1/8 scale wolf adapters for the tires. But when you put that highly modified motor you are going to start tearing up parts my motor put out enough torque that I was constantly stripping spur gears melting gearcases, diffs. I have to agree with Ziggy don't go this route. Some guys like the hpi RS3 and RS4 checkout some of the threads on these cars. I just got tired of buying replacement parts for the Fusion and decided to retire it.
..............I sunk alot of money into getting that motor modified . My car was radared by a policeman. You can get most of the hop ups with the Wolfpackradicals fusion conversion package and I would used kawahara 40mm wide tires for the rear and 30mm wide tires for the front that way you don't have to buy the 1/8 scale wolf adapters for the tires. But when you put that highly modified motor you are going to start tearing up parts my motor put out enough torque that I was constantly stripping spur gears melting gearcases, diffs. I have to agree with Ziggy don't go this route. Some guys like the hpi RS3 and RS4 checkout some of the threads on these cars. I just got tired of buying replacement parts for the Fusion and decided to retire it.
But the RS3 and RS4? Aren't they merely two-speed gearbox cars?
03-12-2009, 05:24 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
yes they are usually 2 speeds but I have seen videos of these cars with single speeds doing over 106 mph the bad news is finding the parts some times they are scarce.
03-12-2009, 05:27 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
ORIGINAL: nitrohead5300
yes they are usually 2 speeds but I have seen videos of these cars with single speeds doing over 106 mph the bad news is finding the parts some times they are scarce.
yes they are usually 2 speeds but I have seen videos of these cars with single speeds doing over 106 mph the bad news is finding the parts some times they are scarce.
I want a car that can turn (but doesn't have to be the best track day car), that can accelerate and that can do really fast top speed runs, are there any cars that can do this? I don't want a dragster car, and it seems to me that most on-road cars are of the allowed type for races i.e. not more than two gears and so on and so forth.
03-12-2009, 05:52 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
They don't have explosive acceleration off the line but they are not slow either. Remember these cars have extremely modified motors in them that have alot of hp to pull these tall gear ratios. Just search this site.
04-06-2009, 08:28 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
i have been dealing with nitrohead for several years.i have never meet him in realtime only on line. he knows his s**t when it comes to schmaucher cars. i also have a gtr imine runs great just cant get a new dbody from anyone that will fit on the car. the original body has hit too many concrete car eaters. nitrohead is correct sell the cars and get a serpent or mugen go fast drive fast and have fun.
04-07-2009, 07:54 AM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
Hello , Chad. 
One of the things that ticks me off about car companies like Schumacher is they come out with good ideas and fail to fully develope them. On the fusion they developed a 3 speed tranny that was revolutionary because it was compact and light weight compared to the old 3 speed trannies and would have been a superior design if they had made the shift points adjustable. If they had made the same improvments to the kit that Wolfpack Radicals did in his conversion kit they would have had a much better product.[
]
One of the things that ticks me off about car companies like Schumacher is they come out with good ideas and fail to fully develope them. On the fusion they developed a 3 speed tranny that was revolutionary because it was compact and light weight compared to the old 3 speed trannies and would have been a superior design if they had made the shift points adjustable. If they had made the same improvments to the kit that Wolfpack Radicals did in his conversion kit they would have had a much better product.[]
04-07-2009, 09:45 AM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
One thing Ive learned in this forum is that Nitrohead knows the Fusion.
One thing Ive learned in my years in the hobby, dont get a Fusion.
I have to totally agree with what was just said. Schumacher has some great ideas, but they just put them out there and fail to follow up on improvements. I guess they figure if they can sell it as hype, it'll hang around for ever. Dont get me wrong, Ive had many people challenge me with their schumacher because the box says it can do 80, so I guess those are the ones that the company is aiming for.
One thing Ive learned in my years in the hobby, dont get a Fusion.
I have to totally agree with what was just said. Schumacher has some great ideas, but they just put them out there and fail to follow up on improvements. I guess they figure if they can sell it as hype, it'll hang around for ever. Dont get me wrong, Ive had many people challenge me with their schumacher because the box says it can do 80, so I guess those are the ones that the company is aiming for.
04-07-2009, 10:50 AM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
Hey Serpent King!! I think the Fusion .28 is not doing so well in sales because you hardly read about anyone owning one on this website or any of the other sites. How is your twin engine project coming along??
04-07-2009, 11:53 AM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
I'll put it simple,
I use my cars so rarely and so little that I don't care if parts break due to a way too powerful engine in the car; and again, I don't race the cars on the track, just in a straight line and around the parking lot, sadly there are _no_ tracks here at all.
I would need to buy a very powerful engine for a Serpent or Mugen anyway in addition to the car itself I'd rather try use the cars I already own, I get nothing for them if I sell them.
When/if parts break I will replace them (unless I suspect the new part breaks almost instantly too), or buy upgraded parts.
So tell me, what is the most powerful engine I can get that will fit the Fusion/GTR, and where should I buy it?
I use my cars so rarely and so little that I don't care if parts break due to a way too powerful engine in the car; and again, I don't race the cars on the track, just in a straight line and around the parking lot, sadly there are _no_ tracks here at all.
I would need to buy a very powerful engine for a Serpent or Mugen anyway in addition to the car itself I'd rather try use the cars I already own, I get nothing for them if I sell them.
When/if parts break I will replace them (unless I suspect the new part breaks almost instantly too), or buy upgraded parts.
So tell me, what is the most powerful engine I can get that will fit the Fusion/GTR, and where should I buy it?
04-07-2009, 12:28 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
Get a top of the line onroad engine by Nova Rossi and then have it modified. Locate a machinest who would be willing to work with you and redesign the clutch needs to be heavy duty so it does not slip , redesign the tranny make it adjustable get rid of the one belt system go to 2-3 belt system narrow belts upgrade the ball bearings thru out the kit redesign the chassis plate so it is bump start then you would have the ultimate parking lot basher. At any rate I hope you have deep pockets because if you really run the fusion and don't treat it like a shelf queen and you really put a hot motor in it you are going to be breaking parts.
At any rate I hope you have deep pockets because if you really run the fusion and don't treat it like a shelf queen and you really put a hot motor in it you are going to be breaking parts.
04-07-2009, 12:50 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
ORIGINAL: nitrohead5300
Get a top of the line onroad engine by Nova Rossi and then have it modified. Locate a machinest who would be willing to work with you and redesign the clutch needs to be heavy duty so it does not slip , redesign the tranny make it adjustable get rid of the one belt system go to 2-3 belt system narrow belts upgrade the ball bearings thru out the kit redesign the chassis plate so it is bump start then you would have the ultimate parking lot basher. At any rate I hope you have deep pockets because if you really run the fusion and don't treat it like a shelf queen and you really put a hot motor in it you are going to be breaking parts.
Get a top of the line onroad engine by Nova Rossi and then have it modified. Locate a machinest who would be willing to work with you and redesign the clutch needs to be heavy duty so it does not slip , redesign the tranny make it adjustable get rid of the one belt system go to 2-3 belt system narrow belts upgrade the ball bearings thru out the kit redesign the chassis plate so it is bump start then you would have the ultimate parking lot basher.
At any rate I hope you have deep pockets because if you really run the fusion and don't treat it like a shelf queen and you really put a hot motor in it you are going to be breaking parts.
I imagine it will be expensive, but hiring a machinist is out of the question, I can buy upgraded parts, no problem, but I don't want to go to such lengths to hire someone to make bespoke parts for the car.
What is the alternative? How much would a 1:10 on-road that does ~150 km/h or a little less, and accelerate really fast even from a standing start cost? Are there any cars that can do this? The only ones that actually go that fast seem to do so merely due to a really, really powerful engine, making the car reach such high end speeds and still be able to accelerate fast with only two gears is in itself an inherently bad idea if you ask me that is why I like the idea of at least three gears, as in the Fusion/GTR; although sadly, I'm aware the gearbox becomes a two-speed due to lack of native adjustment functionality.
04-07-2009, 12:57 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
Nitrohead, the twin has been put on the shelf for now. I got the 1/5 scale bug and have been working on that now. Everytime I look at the twin engine car, I just think about how much money I have just sitting there but for some reason, I lost interest really quick. []
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04-07-2009, 02:19 PM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
ORIGINAL: Got_to_100_now_die_hatin
Nitrohead, the twin has been put on the shelf for now. I got the 1/5 scale bug and have been working on that now. Everytime I look at the twin engine car, I just think about how much money I have just sitting there but for some reason, I lost interest really quick. []
Nitrohead, the twin has been put on the shelf for now. I got the 1/5 scale bug and have been working on that now. Everytime I look at the twin engine car, I just think about how much money I have just sitting there but for some reason, I lost interest really quick. [
]
04-08-2009, 08:20 AM
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RE: Schumacher Fusion and GTR
Nitro, I read up on that but I dont think its worth it. That thing comes out to almost 400 bucks for something that I know cant get to 70MPH. When I know that my FG can get there all day. Ive seen people run stock motors in FGs with a nice pipe and gearing and can do 60+ all day, so 400 for a 2 speed sounds a little off to me. I posted a comment on there and told them that the 2 speed will be like everything else in this hobby. Someone makes an original and a month later, there are cheaper copies all over the place or like in many cases, something cheaper and better.
