D.DJ

Hey guys, Im half hoping that this thread will one day become sticky'd so that people can ask questions about car setups and how they can do whatever do help solve their problems.

OK, here is mine.
I have a Kyosho V1 RRR evo 2, and recently I trued the tires to about 65mm rear 2 deg cone, and 63/64mm (I think) front, no cone.
The rear is 37 shore and the front is 40 shore.
200mm all round.
3.5 deg toe-in rear/3.5 deg camber left, 3.0 deg right side.
0-1 deg. toe-out front/1 deg camber both sides.

Not going into further detail, the seems to handle beautifully when it goes through the corners, exiting ( a little oversteer but not a problem, just ease on the throttle more) is good, if not great.
My problem is once I go off-throttle, the rear end just looses too much traction once I start turning after I go off the throttle.

This may not be a problem after tomorrow as I think my front wheels were still a little too large, but I have also made it so that the rear arms don't travel down so much/travel down less, and the front up-stops, I believe, so that the front doesn't travel down too much. Otherwise it's a nicely handling car. Just after some advice if anybody can help, and so others can post there problems and hopefully get some answers too.

Thanks guys, let's get this thread stickied!!

D.DJ

OK here's the result.

It didn't seem to go well. It went OK, but I still had MAJOR oversteer on the corners, entering and especially exiting. After a while, I switch the front wheels to a smaller diameter and it definitely did help reduce the oversteer, but there was still heaps of ***** sliding around, even though I increases the rear toe-in a little more (didnt measure the angle, but it was at least 4 deg. if not a little more) That also help, but only a little bit. The off throttle oversteer was still there, and so Im still wondering what to do.

The plan is now to do this;

Front: Keep 40 shore.
Toe-out: 1.5 deg.
Width: 198 or 199, try 198.
Camber: 1 deg  in

Rear: Keep 37 shore (seem to be fine)
Toe-in: 3 deg
Width: 196 (if I can, 197 if no other option)
Camber: Right 3.5 deg, Left 3 deg

Keep the front 1-1.5mm higher than the rear.
Ill see what the split was with the wheel change tomorrow, otherwise

Hopefully this will increase overall traction, but help more on-power grip exiting the corners. Ill be trying all sorts of adjustments, and if nothing works, then I guess I will just go to 35 shore or less in the rear.

Anthoop

You seem only to be altering tyres/cambers and toe, have you tried changing the damping at all? Also I presume you can adjust diff tension?
Oversteer on corner enrty with the power off could be reduced by either softer rear damping or harder front. Power on oversteer out of the turn could be reduced by loosening the rear diff.
Earlier you said the you reduced the down travel of the rear, I would think that would make the oversteer on entry worse. As you enter the corner the weight is transfered forward, at the moment too much of that weight is going forward and so the rear looses traction.
Hope that helps.

proanti1

My Feedback: (2)

What roll bar are you running in the back? You might want to swap for a stiffer one. 35 shore is some soft stuff... You're gonna burn through tires pretty fast. Have you tried changing the front diff fluid? I would thicken it up. It might be the front losing traction because of lean and doff spoolout when you either decelerate or hit the brakes, which could be breaking the rear loose. What kind of clutch are you running, the centax clutches can cause all sorts of problems if not adjusted correctly... like a momentary braking effect as you come off the gas.

Anthoop

A tighter front diff will make off power turn-in oversteer worse but out of the turn (on power) it will be better. After thinking some more it could be simply that decreasing the steering angle/ratio may help also...it will always be hard to comment on a handling issue without experiencing it.

D.DJ

Wow, some people helping! hehe

OK, I am running a centax clutch, and after tightening the spring I realised I could control the on-power oversteer better, but really it only made it more tolerable - it was still slipping out a bit after power was applied.
This is my drivetrain:
Front area:
spool diff
fully upright swaybar (helped alot when i made it completely straight)
60WT oil, shocks positioned fully upright (using a KM racing shock mount, so its 1 hole more upright than the std Kyosho tower, helped alot going one more upright)

Rear:
diff: 10K weight
40WT oil
Std adjustable swaybar at the time, no binding, flat bars. Also used the wire bar that came with it at one stage. Also used NO swaybar as well.

ATM the off-power oversteer has gone. But it may come back, dont know right now.

I had less of a problem with this when running a Lola body, but I guess the body gave the rear more grip.BTW Im running a low traction track, pretty small and its usually pretty dusty due to the fact there is a soil and gardening center right across the road, right in the direction of the wind. The wheels last quite a while even though they are soft (and to think I have 30 shore wheels still in a box!)

Also, sometimes I would encounter UNDERSTEER, but more likely because I was going too fast more than anything on this one 'corner', more like a bend. Otherwise, Ive been looking at setup guides on the net, and came with this (as posted in my previous post about track width)

Decreasing front track width will:
increase front grip
increase steering response (I need a little more)
decrease understeer (im only going in from 200 to 199-198)

Decreasing rear track width:
Increases grip @ corner exit (need that!)
Increases high-speed understeer (i can deal with that)
Increases front grip in hairpins (I guess I could use that)

Otherwise I think it is good in some areas but totally out of balance everywhere else, so equalising that should make it better. Otherwise I do really well against the top people at that track who have been racing for quite some time now compared to my 8 months of having my RRR.

So today I will change the front to 199mm, toe out 1.5 deg if I can get it there, the rear to 197mm toe in 3.5 deg, and the camber as it was.
Its really close to being a great car, just still all over the place.

I really don't want to change the rear diff oil, I hate cleaning it out. Unless there is something that gets rid or at leasts breaks down the gunk, I can deal with it. Replacing the diff oil is the one thing that sucks - it gets on everything and likes to stay around for a while

When measuring the rear wheels diameter, where do I measure from: the innermost part being smallest, or the outermost part being the largest? The wheels are usually sitting on the innermost part, but one guy, who I assume is a pro racer at least, told me the largest part.

And that is my essay on what happened and what I will do. (Phew, it's long!)

D.DJ

And what I meant by adjust the front and rear travel:

The rear, I tightened the screw that lets the rear arms go down/lift the rear, so I made it lift less

For the front I tightened the screws that stop it from bottoming out. Otherwise that's all I use those screws for, I don't understand the whole droop thing, only that I can use them as internal limiters.

proanti1

My Feedback: (2)

How are your tires wearing? Are they still keeping the same degree of cut after a heat?

Could be a body issue, you might want to throw on a larger spoiler or a better body.

Droop is how much the suspension drops when you pick up the back of the car.

I wouldn't touch the diff oil if you are running a spool in the front. Any thicker stuff might cause massive oversteer.

D.DJ

Yeah, I want to make the rear droop so that it only goes up a little bit, but not so much that it will seriously affect the way it handles. Otherwise the way it is now is fine. I will definitely be keeping the oil in there, just replace it when the time comes.

The tire cone is wearing perfectly, practically the same after I true them (2 deg), only the left side is wearing faster because of the right hand turns, but thats not an issue.

As for the Body, Ive only started using the new P56-N from Protoform, so that's why im still going through the stages of finding the right setup coming from the T530 lola body.

I havent tested any new settings because: 1. I havent done it yet, and 2. Its been too damp and cold to try it anyway! Ill be doing right now after this post, because I now have the time!

Il drop the rear to 196mm and the front to 199mm, I think that will do the trick. I was told be the pther people there to run a wider front than rear, but I still had rear traction problems so I thought to leave the rear around 199-200. Looks like I was wrong :-|

Ill keep whoever is reading this posted once Ive actually tested the new ride settings.

proanti1

My Feedback: (2)

How do you like the tripple r? I was thinking about picking one up and finally ditching my mugen, its getting a bit out dated... I'm tired of getting hammered by serpents. No one around where I love runs one, so I haven't seen one in person. I heard the chassis is rigid as anything...

D.DJ

OK, an update:

Heres the setup

-Front-
1 deg toe-out
1 deg camber (in of course)
7mm ride height
40 Shore +1 offset wheels
199mm @ widest point

-Rear-
3 deg toe-in
L-3.5 deg camber, R-3.0 deg camber
6mm ride height
37 Shore, 2mm offset
198mm @ widest point
-Can't go any more in because the driveshafts then hit the diff and 'bind' the movement, only if the shafts were shorter If I used -1mm offset, which I have but haven't tried using yet, then I guess I could take it down to 195mm.

Roll centers are also standard from the kit instructions

Front wheels are about 2mm in diameter smaller than the rear, 1mm larger on the left side to compensate greater wear. It will even itself out after a few tanks.

Proanti1: So far this is my first real race car, previous was a 4tec 3.3 handled horribly but took everyone down the straights Otherwise Im absolutely loving the RRR, but mine is also the newest model - the Evo 2.
If you were to get a new car, anything goes really, but my TOP picks (apart from mine) would be:
1: XRay NT1 or Serpent 733
2: Capricorn LAB C-01 or something
3: Team Magic G4RS

If I didnt have the RRR, it would also be up with number 1. The Shephard Velox V10 or 12 is also a great car, could put it up with 2, maybe between 2 and 3. I've seen it in person, and OMG, the way things are laid out! The front and rear diffs come out with only a few screws, no need to take apart the front end (like most others) and there are no brakes on the same shaft as the spur gears - they've integrated the brakes ONTO, yes on the rear diff case. It's actuated by a cable attached to the rear end and the throttle servo, kind of like a bikes brakes. The guy had the new Sirio XXX in it and it really flew, still breaking it in too at the time, but I think he was running it too lean to be still running it in IMO.

Hopefully the weather will clear up soon, just rained heaps today, so I can try this completely new setup! Should be good, as when I used smaller fronts just to see if it would handle better, it made it much better!

BUT 1 question: When measuring the rear wheel diameter, where do you measure from: the innermost part which is smaller, or the outermost part which is larger? I would guess the innermost as it has the contact with the ground more often.

Keep you all posted!

D.DJ

GOOD NEWS, well sort of.

I finally got a day of practice in, but the car was still kicking out like it had no grip.
After switching to 35s with -1 offset (if that is right) it was still kicking out but not quite as much as the 37 +2's.

After looking at my friends MTX-3, and getting the gears to work, I had an idea, but really it was too late because my steering servo stripped some teeth inside (to be confirmed still, but Im 100% sure some teeth inside it are gone) My idea was to switch the center-front pulley from 23 teeth, to 24 teeth. Straight away upon testing, it was soo much more tame around the corners!! No more power-oversteer, at least not as much as it was! Now all I have to do is test it again, get new wheels because these 35s are about finished and have started chunking on the edges. Otherwise, 37s in the rear should still do me fine if all I had to do was change the front overdrive to 0% (i think the 23t made it overdrive 1.6% or something like that)
What I don't understand is why smaller front wheels didnt make it behave the same way as running no overdrive. Fronts were 2mm smaller than rears, but still I had too much oversteer happening! Ahh well, a good days work eventually paid off.
Now all I have to do is fine tune it and replace that servo!

proanti1

My Feedback: (2)

Damn... the only thing I didn't even think of. The smaller pulley is to compensate for the smaller front wheels.

D.DJ

Yeah, I knew that too, but I still couldn't stop the rear from sliding out out of the corners, no matter how small I got the front wheels. Maybe if the front was basically running on its rims, maybe it would have changed things But Im happy, at least from what I saw, that it sticks better now. All I have to do is get my servo replaced (should come tomorrow or the next day) and then its good to go another round! It probably got damaged after a bit of a smash it had (slammed into my friends car going around 70-80 kmh, luckily we had no damage apart from one of my front body posts getting torn)
Now comes the fine-tuning!

D.DJ

Another update.

After having a chat with Steven Jovanovic (one of the best here in Victoria or Australia) he had a look at my car and pointed something out to me that I recently contemplated adjusting, but forgot all about it.
If anyone know the rear upper inner arm positions, I had it in the original position 1 (innermost and highest hole). He told me to put it into position B which is the lowest and outermost position, which I can see will lower the roll center AND give me more camber change in the wheels. I saw Shimo's car in the latest Worlds was in the same position! Steven just came back from the Worlds in Porter, Texas, but never reached the finals because of mechanical issues bugging the car. He and his brother Peter had one of the fastest cars there (supposedly) so it's a shame they bummed out. Least Peter reached 20th which I see as fantastic, I'd probably come last!
I also upped the diff from 10K to 15K, told it was REALLY loose and would probably "diff out" on me in the corners.
So far by sitting on the workbench, it seems like it has excellent grip, but only a track run will give me the final verdict. I might even be able to get harder rear tires! No more going through 3 sets of rears to 1 set of fronts!

Keep you posted hopefully by Monday, Sunday better not rain!! Going to a different track this time, hopefully I wont have problems like last time (driveline oneway gave out on me, plus my Lola body gave me issues on the straight, it actually flipped upwards at the end at one stage! Quite spectacular but no damage)

D.DJ

Well, it's been a while since I've updated this, but after that race (in previous post) it seemed to be a lot better, at least I think so.
So the car goes as follows:

Ride height: F(5.0mm) R(5.5mm)
Camber: F(1.0 deg) R(3.0 deg)
Caster: Full forward
Toe: F(1 deg out) R(3 deg in)
Wheels: F(40shore) R(37shore) unsure of the split, i think 2.5mm. Switched to F(35) and R(37) because I chunked a tire. better and worse then!
Diffs: F(locked) R(15K plus, added some 150K oil to the 15K to make it a little thicker, didnt really do much)
Width: 200mm all round in the beginning, front may have decreased to 198mm on tire change.

RC's: F(highest possible) R(camber link: pos B, lower arm: second lowest hole)

In general, it seemed much more tame than the last time I was there, but the rear still kicked out once the power increased. Near the end the rear coning started to cone outwards! So I think I increased it, or maybe that was after the finals, not sure, but still it was better than the last time!

Now Im running 30K diff in the rear, still going to try out 40K, with 35shore all round. Make the front wheel diameter 3mm smaller than the rear as well.
I contacted Chris Tosolini as well, asking if he could help with this problem. So far he said to go 200mm all round, stick to 30K rear or more, and change the camber link to lowest and innermost hole. Ill try his tips after I try mine (planning on going through everything I can at the track one day!) Otherwise Ill try to get Peter or Steven Jovanovic to have a go at my car and see if it's just me, or something hidden with the car!

ziggy12345

Hi.

I have had Kyosho since the R and every model since inluding all the FW's so know a bit about setup. My suggestion is to forget everything anybody has told you and try to understand what is happening to the car and why. Take the Toe in/Toe out of the wheels, what is it for and what does it do.

If you have slight toe in at the back and slight toe out at the front the car will have less steering the faster you go. As the car turns to the right the car leans to the left and loads the front and rear wheels. They are both trying to turn the car to the left and therefore it reduces steering in mid corner. With too much toe in the car will react the opposite when coming off power the car will snatch to the right and spin.

In my experiance 2-2.5 deg toe in at the rear is all you need. If you are over steering on power its a combination. As the car turns to the right the car leans to the left. With a stiff chassis the front left wheel loads up and digs in turning the car too much. The solution is to either reduce the oil weight in the front left shock or possibly soften the spring or both. This will allow the left wheel to unload in the corner and stop the rear spinning.

If the car is spinning out under power then the right wheel is pushing the car past the CofG to the left. You need to offload the power on the left side to the right by softening the oil in the diff

This is just one example and then you have to factor in shock springs, oil, holes in piston, number and size, camber, caster, track width, chassis flex, front and rear diff and thats before you get onto the engine, clutch etc...

Not until you fully understand how the car works can you hope to know how to adjust the car.

Cheers

D.DJ

Hmm, having a think about that, I can see where it makes sense.
All I can say is that pretty much in general, the car handles nicely, only coming on-power is where the rear decides to start slipping out.
I might start at 2.0 deg toe-in in the rear and go from there. I did notice going from toe-out in the front to 0 toe, it was much nicer all round.

So the plan is:
-start at 1.5 deg toe-in in the rear, see what happens.
-change the front shock positions around, see what happens.

Maybe that's all I need, thanks for the input ziggy!

ziggy12345

Lower the oil weight in the rear diff. If you dont believe me then try just running grease oin the back diff and see how it handles

Cheers

D.DJ

GOOD NEWS!!!

well sort of...

I was at a racing comp this weekend, placed 5th cos of engine issues and its only the second time ive been to that track, but I ended up using a 35F 42R combination which surprised me by really working!
Before I set the car up, I changed back the front pulley down to the original 23t to see where that would take me. I think I had a2-3mm split, and overall, after some other adjustments, ran really well.
So today after finishing the races, I headed back home and stopped at my local track to see if I can get my engine running properly. To my surprise, the whole car was very stable through everything, but a bit too stick up front, so 37s or 40s would be the way, or just put the shocks up a hole or 2.
The front were larger than the rear im guessing, so it handled strangely, but I was so surprised at how the rear stuck so well!!
The camber was increased compared to what I normally run there, only because the event track had heaps of bite, so almost 5 deg camber stopped the chunking, but it was almost like a magnet! So Ill be leaving my car to sit on the bench, while I save up some more money, replace all the bearings and other parts like the outer parts of the universals, and hopefully get my engine sorted.

olkleaf

Hey i have a RRR evo2 too. I dont really mess with my set up alot i usually get a set up from one of the fast guys at the track and work from there. Usually the only things i will mess with would be the rear toe, ride height and maybe move the rear shocks one hole up or down. camber i always try to set it so i have even wear on the tires (inside of the tire isnt much smaller then the out side) i dunno if you do this but take out the setup sheet that came with the car and take a bunch of copies of the blank side. fill out the set up set and see what actually works best. i just feel like your messing too much with things...



I like to reefer to the nt1 setup guide alot when im messing with things helps me alot
http://www.teamxray.com/teamxray/new...61cf9074f3f144

D.DJ

Well, I have messed with it alot, but im pretty sure my problems were caused to running the front overdrive at 0% instead of whatever it is using the 23t pulley (+16%?) After I came back from that comp, I had larger fronts than rears, just to muck around and try and fix my engine, and the car was planted the whole time, using 35F and 42R. So im 100% positive the pulley drove the rear too much causing it to spin out so easily, like having rear wheel drive almost.
For that local track Im on about, I have the rear at 3.0 camber left, 3.5 camber right to get an even coning, but i might increase both by 0.5 to 1.0 deg if i feel it lacks side grip and if the wheels chunk easily. Ill keep the ride height 0.5-1.0mm higher at the rear than the front, and toe-in at 3.0-3.5 deg depending on how it feels. the diff will stay at 40K for the moment, but ill swap it for 30K and see what difference it makes.
Once I get my new engine, Ill definitely be testing it for sure, 2mm split and 1.5 toe out in the front to start, Ill eventually try and get a whole day in to go through everything 1 by 1 to get the best setup I feel would get me round fastest. The RB M3 will be my weapon of choice next using the non-conical medium header with nova 2601 pipe, should run very well. When I go to a larger track just for kicks, ill change it to conical short header with Nova 2660 pipe, This thing should be a real blast!! Maybe Ill even be able to keep up with the Australian champs there, they're really fast, as I would expect

Once again, thanks for all the help to those that tried, it was heaps of fun. Unfortunately, the funds are tight and got worse last night because of a drugs bus - pulled me over, the preliminary test showed i had Amphetamines in my system, then inside the bus, it showed that I had THC but no Amphetamines, so Im in the process of getting an independant drugs test to prove my innocence. Damn police, cant they get it right the first time??!? So Ill be taking a month or so off, just to get the funds flowing in nice and steady and so Ill be able to race once again!