spillinmyRUM

have there ever been a r/c sailboat with overlapping headsails? if so why dont they make more of them?

andy1499

I'm definately not an engineer, but I know that most of the popular RC sailboats utilize both mainsail and jib sail booms, and the jib boom would make it difficult to have an overlap. There's probably a better, more scientific explanation out there though.

Andy

ED MORALES

class rules does not permit it, if you are racing. but i believe it is possible.
ed

3dbob37n

Well, tacking would be a problem although merely an engineering problem. You would have to get the genoa (an overlapping sail) to come across the mast and set on the other side without snagging on the mast or other protuberances. In light airs it might not even come across. You would also have to carry more ballast since the extra sail area would cause more of a heel moment.
There would be a possible advantage in that there is a venturi effect operating between a genoa and the main.
The advantage would be offset by the difficulty in setting trim on both sails at just the right amount to obtain the venturi effect.
Ultimately, a jib is better, less trouble and more efficient.

3dbob

biteme

Whoa! While this may be against R/C sailboat race rules, it is definately used for real sailboats. The configuration is simply called a cutter(I've sailed on one). Yes, getting the genoa accross can be a problem, but using roller furling( like a window shade rollup for the genoa) will help the genny avoid the cutter(sail) . You wold need a lot of servo throw to be able to roll up the genoa and back out again. While this may seem ungainly, it is a very good config for 'pointing' or sailing more directly into the wind. The added sail is literally an extra wing. Remember - all sails are wings; a cutter is simply a biplane( more 'lift' on the front of the boat is what allows it to point better). Sean

Pecos45

I thought this was what a genoa was all about......an overlapping sail?

biteme

The Genoa, aka genny, jib, forsail, etc is the front sail. Usually the Genny is decribed in a %; that % is the % disatance from the bow to the mast. a 100% genoa reaches from the bow stay to the mast when in a close reach. Some boats ( like hobie cats and small craft) have a smaller jib, say 70%, (or even no jib) they dont reach as far as the mast. The family had a 26' sailboat, rigged for racing, that had a genny of 170% ( it reached all the way from the bow to the winch on the side of the cockpit - overlapping the mainsail). The second forsail is the cutter, and if I remember correctly, it can be a boom sail

J.Moya

There are several RC boats that use Genoa sails. Microsalies make an excellent kit with a working Genoa. (http://www.microsail.com/index.html)
The Robbe Atlantis kit that uses a Genoa, I have built two and the sail tacks on a clever track. (http://www.rchobby.co.uk/atlantis_se...odel_of_a.html).

It's not only possible, It work very well.

wismerhell

Didnt know MicroSail was making Genoas...spinnakers yes, well kind of...

Try this link:[link=http://www.ludwigrcyachts.com/MAINPAGE.htm]Ludwig Yachts[/link]

J.Moya

Hay Wismerhel,
Is Ludwig in business yet? Grate looking boat, but seams they are not ready for business?

wismerhell

oh Larry is!!!
His boats are sailing!!
Great boats, great man.

3dbob37n

I don't know how they would work on a model but in full scale, a roller furling genoa or even a jib, is never used for racing because they are cut different than racing sails and sag too much. Because of the roller furling the genoa sags and cannot point as close as a racing sail.
In a model race, one must tack extremely quick in order to stay ahead of with the fleet and I doubt any mechanism could be developed to roll the geona in and let it back out fast enough to keep the other boats at bay, at least not at a reasonable cost. The cost benefit question still comes up since a large main and a regular sized jib can be the most efficient combination.
With a genoa, one would have to use a shorter mast because of the increase in sail area, or install more ballast and possibly lose overall speed. Genoas are at their best when off the wind on a reach. No, a jib is not a genoa.

3dbob

tsparks

If I remember the construction manual correctly from when I did my Robbe Atlantis several years ago, the Genoa option was basicly a "auto-furler". But I decided to pass on that and the "drop-down from in the hull" aux. motor option. If you're looking for overlapping sails, check out Robbe's Valdivia schooner. There's overlapping foresails/ jibs and a fairly complex sail plan. If you want a up-close look other then the official website advertisment, then check out my build diary of the Valdivia. Lots of pictures!

Taylor
http://www.sparksstudios.com/boatyard/index.htm

SloopJohnB

I have some files regarding overlapping jibs and genoas that I have collected in the resceach for the 1:24 Baltimore Clipper (Pride of Baltimore) that I will be building sometime. After the house renovations of course!!!!!

I cann't recall who send them to me, so I hope its is ok with them.

wismerhell

if its Bluenose...then it was John Dowd

canesugarrules

I have a Vortex 60 that has an genoa, mabey 130%? It is a fairly easy setup, but the servo is complicated. It is simply a continous jib sheet that goes to a free spinning, geared motor. Here is a link to a video clip and some pictures. The pink string is the continous jib sheet.



[link]http://www.clemson.edu/~elevert/images/reach.mov[/link]
[link]http://www.clemson.edu/~elevert/images/tack.mov[/link]

Frank M

Realising its over 12 months since this forum was last updated, its still the only place I've found anything on controlling and adjusting multiple headsails (jibs).

I'm building a scaled up version (1/20) of the Artesania Latina "Clara May" (1891 ketch) that has 4 jibs. While I've come up with a few ideas to tack and adjust the sails, none of them do the task as well as I'd like.

If anyone has a system for controlling and adjusting multiple jibs, I would be more than grateful for the advice.

Frank M.

Guiri

There's a thread on a similar topic at http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Forum.htm

patmat

Frank M:
Have you tried your rigs on the water, or only on the bench?
I also have a Robbe Valdivia with overlapping jib and flying jib. It uses a continuous loop on deck to which the p & s jib sheets (4 in all) are attached. On the bench, executing a tack is scary, as the clews snag going over the stays. But on the water, the wind helps lift them over, and the tack is effortless.
Simulate the wind with a well aimed fan, also useful for establishing the initial trim of the multiple sheets.

Pat Matthews
p.s. My build article on Valdivia is a currently-running series in Ships in Scale magazine.

LtDoc

spillinmyRUM,
Yes, there are models with over-lapping sails. They aren't quite as simple to build, and I would imagine that's why there aren't more of them. There are 'who-knows-how-many' builders who reconfigure their boats to use them too. While it's just a guess, I would think that the "cost/skill" thingy is the reason for so few.
- 'Doc

PS - After just a quick glance, I think 'VMP' is tooling up for one like that.

SloopJohnB

Frank M

Look at my post #14 it shows both genoas and multiple overlapping jib sheeting systems.

michaele69

Where can one find more info on that Vortex 60? It looks mighty pretty!

ME.

Frank M

To Guiri, Patmat & SloopJohnB.

Thanks for your feedback. I now have a better idea of what I'm doing and having set up a dummy rig using one of the setups from the dutch site referenced from http://www.modelboatmayhem.co.uk/Forum.htm, I am confident it will work well on the water - as suggested by Pat. Thats still at least a couple of months away.

Does anyone have a good idea for attaching the sheets to the clews to minimise the possibility of the clews snagging on the stays as the boat tacks.

Frank

LarryLudwig

Unfortunately the Vortex 60 went down with the company in the early 80's. There were only about 50 made that I know of.... there could be more. Fortunately through the efforts of one of the members here I was able to obtain his boat with the intention to produce the boat again. It will be WELL into the future because while it is a lovely sailing boat, and commands a lot of attention, the demand is not great when compared to the IOM and EC-12. (I have to go with what pays the bills. )

At the rate things are going I don't see it happening... hardly even in 2007 with the agressive schedule we have on other classes. The J Class and AC Class will follow up the IOM's once they are completed and ready which hopefully will be by next Spring. But, the good news is that we have a pristine example, and all the paperwork needed to get it right. On the other hand, I have been developing the winch on a much larger and more powerful and faster scale. This WILL be availalble sooner as it will be incorporated on the J and AC class boats. So the idea of overlapping headsails will be promoted sooner. I started working with them 20+ years ago when we put the SC-4 on the Half-Meter with spectacular results. The trick is improving all those factors needed in racing which is speed, power, speed, reliability, and speed. (did I mention speed?) The 2nd problem is when sailing downwind, with no whiskerpole, the Genoa is not as efficient as the self-tacking jib using a jib boom but I am testing the latest on that problem this coming weekend and the bench tests have been GOOD, so maybe we have solved this one. I hope so.

hoghappy

My schooner utilizes a set over lapping jibs. Unfortunately they can not be controlled separately. They all run off the same wench drum along with the main driver and fore gaff sails. One servo adjusts all five sails at once. If you have questions let me know. Oh the ships name is Prince de Neufchatel and is in another thread here....or go to www.princedeneufchatel.com for more info including a look inside the hull.

Robert