Receiver antenna up the mast ?
09-03-2008, 12:02 PM
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Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Hi, anyone ever run the receiver antenna wire up a metal mast? Does the greater height improve rannge/reception? or does the metal tubing interfere and block the reception?
Please advise
THX,
ZRYDE
Please advise
THX,
ZRYDE
09-03-2008, 12:39 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Hi ZRYDE,
You can do better than that, you can use the mast as antenna, just make a stable connection under the deck, cut the antenna wire so you have aproximately the original length and you're in business.
Just make sure there's no (intermittant) metal to metal contact, which will cause jittering of the servo's.
Or:
I can't quite see it in your pics, but is the mast held in a tube under the deck?
If you don't have access to the (bare) aluminum you can wrap a sheet of brass (preferably the paperthin selfadhesive kind) around the mast tube and connect your antenna to the brass, will work well too, even with a carbon fiber rod as mast.
Or:
If you want to sail out far from the transmitter, use stainless steel wire for an aft stay and connect the antenna wire to it, you'll have range as far as you can see the boat....
The picture shows the back stay of my Thunder Tiger Voyager, the blue wire runs to the receiver, the range with my Graupner MC-12 is incredible, useless, as I cannot see what I'm doing at that distance, but incredible nevertheless.
Regards, Jan.
You can do better than that, you can use the mast as antenna, just make a stable connection under the deck, cut the antenna wire so you have aproximately the original length and you're in business.
Just make sure there's no (intermittant) metal to metal contact, which will cause jittering of the servo's.
Or:
I can't quite see it in your pics, but is the mast held in a tube under the deck?
If you don't have access to the (bare) aluminum you can wrap a sheet of brass (preferably the paperthin selfadhesive kind) around the mast tube and connect your antenna to the brass, will work well too, even with a carbon fiber rod as mast.
Or:
If you want to sail out far from the transmitter, use stainless steel wire for an aft stay and connect the antenna wire to it, you'll have range as far as you can see the boat....
The picture shows the back stay of my Thunder Tiger Voyager, the blue wire runs to the receiver, the range with my Graupner MC-12 is incredible, useless, as I cannot see what I'm doing at that distance, but incredible nevertheless.
Regards, Jan.
09-03-2008, 01:17 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Hmmm.... very interesting.
My mast does not go thru the deck. I put a 1" diameter tube vertically inside to provide support under the deck, and put some epoxy putty under the deck as well. Also I embedded the stock antennae tube inside the epoxy (it is bent like an elbow) and it penetrates the deck to allow me to feed the wire up inside the mast.
I really like your ideas though. I might have to change my plans.
THanks,
Z
My mast does not go thru the deck. I put a 1" diameter tube vertically inside to provide support under the deck, and put some epoxy putty under the deck as well. Also I embedded the stock antennae tube inside the epoxy (it is bent like an elbow) and it penetrates the deck to allow me to feed the wire up inside the mast.
I really like your ideas though. I might have to change my plans.
THanks,
Z
09-03-2008, 02:44 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
If your antenna wire is inside the mast, without electrical contact to it, the mast will act as a shield, leaving you with a very poor reception.
I'd do a range check on land, before making a maiden trip.
Got a link to your boat?
Regards, Jan.
I'd do a range check on land, before making a maiden trip.
Got a link to your boat?
Regards, Jan.
09-03-2008, 02:48 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
As Jan said, yes, it works. Longer range? Compared to the antenna being inside the boat, yes. How much 'extra' range? Beats me, too many variables in that to make a valid guess. I think it's worth the effort.
- 'Doc
(That 'stable' connection between antenna and mast is important. Exactly how you go about it isn't very critical at all, as long as it's a good electrical connection.)
- 'Doc
(That 'stable' connection between antenna and mast is important. Exactly how you go about it isn't very critical at all, as long as it's a good electrical connection.)
09-03-2008, 03:21 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
FWIW
as long as the mast is NOT grounded e.g. goes into the water, it will act as an antenna - it doesn't matter if the antenna wire is inside the mast, connected to the mast or taped to the outside of the mast, it will work equally well
as Pompebled states "do a range check on land before making a maiden trip."
as long as the mast is NOT grounded e.g. goes into the water, it will act as an antenna - it doesn't matter if the antenna wire is inside the mast, connected to the mast or taped to the outside of the mast, it will work equally well
as Pompebled states "do a range check on land before making a maiden trip."
09-03-2008, 03:31 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
You're right Glynn,
As long as the mast isn't grounded it should work.
Judging by the size of the boat the side stays won't be metal wire (like pike wire), but, on my boat, if it heels, the stays get wet, connecting the mast to the water, shielding a wire inside the mast, if there would be one, fortunately I use the backstay as antenna.
Regards, Jan.
As long as the mast isn't grounded it should work.
Judging by the size of the boat the side stays won't be metal wire (like pike wire), but, on my boat, if it heels, the stays get wet, connecting the mast to the water, shielding a wire inside the mast, if there would be one, fortunately I use the backstay as antenna.
Regards, Jan.
09-03-2008, 09:23 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
interesting points folks
I wonder if a "larger antenae" would put larger strain on the receiver battery.
maybe I should have taken an electrical engineering course......
I wonder if a "larger antenae" would put larger strain on the receiver battery.
maybe I should have taken an electrical engineering course......
09-04-2008, 03:05 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
I run my antenna in a small tube glued to the under side of the deck. This keeps the antenna above the water line, one less hole in the deck to seal, and helps minimize the set up at the pond. I sail a T-37 which requires me to take the sails off to transport.
]
As for the range, I've dry tested mine to about 2 football fields. I loose sight distance (ability to see what the boat is doing) long before I loose radio range.
]
As for the range, I've dry tested mine to about 2 football fields. I loose sight distance (ability to see what the boat is doing) long before I loose radio range.
09-26-2008, 08:45 AM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Here is how Pylon Racers shorten their antenna's. It works for sailboats too. I've been using this method for years with no range problems. Sailboats don't need anywhere near the range of pylon racers.
http://www.darrolcady.com/Racing_Inf...ch/Antenna.htm
http://www.darrolcady.com/Racing_Inf...ch/Antenna.htm
09-27-2008, 07:25 AM
#13
RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
You can try this:
http://www.wsdeans.com/products/antenna/index.html
They're removeable for storage and they work just fine.
http://www.wsdeans.com/products/antenna/index.html
They're removeable for storage and they work just fine.
09-28-2008, 05:40 AM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Just a 'FWIW' thingy.
Shortening any antenna is going to reduce usable range. So will not getting it as high as possible. There are limits, if those limits fall in to a usable range for you then do it! You can shorten an antenna by cutting it off, or by cutting it off and adding an inductance (coil) to electrically make up for that shortening). The coil thingy is very important for the transmitter, much less important for the receiver. Has to do with transmitting antennas being part of a 'tuned' circuit, typical receivers don't do things that way.
Optimizing none-movable antennas is pretty easy. For antennas that move, it gets very difficult, just too many possible positions and -practical- lengths to allow for. R/C antennas (both transmitting and receiving) are of the movable variety. Another aspect with R/C antennas is that for all except one band of use, the typical R/C antenna has been extremely shortened to start with, no where near a "resonant" length. A none-resonant antenna works fine if you do the measuring in feet/yards. Resonant antennas usually deal with measurements in miles. So, while resonance is nice, it's sort of ridiculous for R/C'ing. The biggy for R/C antennas is what's -practical- for each particular model! Electrical thingys (antennas) are sort of like water, not very practical to try to scale them down, sort of. Some, sure. Just not a lot.
- 'Doc
Shortening any antenna is going to reduce usable range. So will not getting it as high as possible. There are limits, if those limits fall in to a usable range for you then do it! You can shorten an antenna by cutting it off, or by cutting it off and adding an inductance (coil) to electrically make up for that shortening). The coil thingy is very important for the transmitter, much less important for the receiver. Has to do with transmitting antennas being part of a 'tuned' circuit, typical receivers don't do things that way.
Optimizing none-movable antennas is pretty easy. For antennas that move, it gets very difficult, just too many possible positions and -practical- lengths to allow for. R/C antennas (both transmitting and receiving) are of the movable variety. Another aspect with R/C antennas is that for all except one band of use, the typical R/C antenna has been extremely shortened to start with, no where near a "resonant" length. A none-resonant antenna works fine if you do the measuring in feet/yards. Resonant antennas usually deal with measurements in miles. So, while resonance is nice, it's sort of ridiculous for R/C'ing. The biggy for R/C antennas is what's -practical- for each particular model! Electrical thingys (antennas) are sort of like water, not very practical to try to scale them down, sort of. Some, sure. Just not a lot.
- 'Doc
09-28-2008, 07:32 AM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
ORIGINAL: LtDoc
Just a 'FWIW' thingy.
Shortening any antenna is going to reduce usable range. So will not getting it as high as possible. There are limits, if those limits fall in to a usable range for you then do it! You can shorten an antenna by cutting it off, or by cutting it off and adding an inductance (coil) to electrically make up for that shortening). The coil thingy is very important for the transmitter, much less important for the receiver. Has to do with transmitting antennas being part of a 'tuned' circuit, typical receivers don't do things that way.
Optimizing none-movable antennas is pretty easy. For antennas that move, it gets very difficult, just too many possible positions and -practical- lengths to allow for. R/C antennas (both transmitting and receiving) are of the movable variety. Another aspect with R/C antennas is that for all except one band of use, the typical R/C antenna has been extremely shortened to start with, no where near a "resonant" length. A none-resonant antenna works fine if you do the measuring in feet/yards. Resonant antennas usually deal with measurements in miles. So, while resonance is nice, it's sort of ridiculous for R/C'ing. The biggy for R/C antennas is what's -practical- for each particular model! Electrical thingys (antennas) are sort of like water, not very practical to try to scale them down, sort of. Some, sure. Just not a lot.
- 'Doc
Just a 'FWIW' thingy.
Shortening any antenna is going to reduce usable range. So will not getting it as high as possible. There are limits, if those limits fall in to a usable range for you then do it! You can shorten an antenna by cutting it off, or by cutting it off and adding an inductance (coil) to electrically make up for that shortening). The coil thingy is very important for the transmitter, much less important for the receiver. Has to do with transmitting antennas being part of a 'tuned' circuit, typical receivers don't do things that way.
Optimizing none-movable antennas is pretty easy. For antennas that move, it gets very difficult, just too many possible positions and -practical- lengths to allow for. R/C antennas (both transmitting and receiving) are of the movable variety. Another aspect with R/C antennas is that for all except one band of use, the typical R/C antenna has been extremely shortened to start with, no where near a "resonant" length. A none-resonant antenna works fine if you do the measuring in feet/yards. Resonant antennas usually deal with measurements in miles. So, while resonance is nice, it's sort of ridiculous for R/C'ing. The biggy for R/C antennas is what's -practical- for each particular model! Electrical thingys (antennas) are sort of like water, not very practical to try to scale them down, sort of. Some, sure. Just not a lot.
- 'Doc
WHAT????
09-30-2008, 07:21 AM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Which part needs explaining?
- 'Doc
- 'Doc
Resonant antennas usually deal with measurements in miles. ????
09-30-2008, 01:17 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
glynn19,
Your slide rule is about right!
1/4 wave lengths
-
27 Mhz = 104"
40 Mhz = 70"
70 Mhz = 39"
2.4 Ghz = 1.17"
These figures are all approximate, not exact. They do not take the diameter of the antenna conductor into account, nor are they for any particular frequency in a band. For receiving, they are about as 'average' as is practical (worth worrying about). The higher you go in frequency the less of a 'fudge factor' there is, BUT, that is usually only important for transmitting antennas, not recieving antennas. 'Odd' multiples of those lengths tend to have the same electrical characteristics as the 1/4 wave length antennas, sort of. 'Even' multiples of those lengths have characteristics that are not even close. Not necessarily 'bad', just not the same. A good example of that is with the 2.4 Ghz systems, the 'odd' multiple thingy.
There are a bunch of other things that affect antennas, such as their 'shapes'. Unless you are just super interested in that sort of stuff, staying in the 'ball-park' usually works just fine, and isn't as boring for those that are not that interested. None of this is 'magic', it's all physics/electronics, and there's a huge knowledge base about it. After a page or two of the math envolved, you'll wonder why the @#$$ you ever wondered!
- 'Doc
Your slide rule is about right!
1/4 wave lengths
-
27 Mhz = 104"
40 Mhz = 70"
70 Mhz = 39"
2.4 Ghz = 1.17"
These figures are all approximate, not exact. They do not take the diameter of the antenna conductor into account, nor are they for any particular frequency in a band. For receiving, they are about as 'average' as is practical (worth worrying about). The higher you go in frequency the less of a 'fudge factor' there is, BUT, that is usually only important for transmitting antennas, not recieving antennas. 'Odd' multiples of those lengths tend to have the same electrical characteristics as the 1/4 wave length antennas, sort of. 'Even' multiples of those lengths have characteristics that are not even close. Not necessarily 'bad', just not the same. A good example of that is with the 2.4 Ghz systems, the 'odd' multiple thingy.
There are a bunch of other things that affect antennas, such as their 'shapes'. Unless you are just super interested in that sort of stuff, staying in the 'ball-park' usually works just fine, and isn't as boring for those that are not that interested. None of this is 'magic', it's all physics/electronics, and there's a huge knowledge base about it. After a page or two of the math envolved, you'll wonder why the @#$$ you ever wondered!
- 'Doc
11-02-2008, 01:34 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
I say going up the backstay is the best idea, it gets it up and out of the boat with out 2 much drilling. I did it my soiling 1 meter and just drilled a 1/16 hole right below the backstay. fed a peice of string through the hole, fished it out and tied it 2 the antenna wire. Then pulled the string back out with the antenna wire, just spireld it up the mast and held it there with masking tape
11-02-2008, 03:07 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
The backstay is my favourite. Personally I would not put the aerial wire up the inside of a conducting tube. That is how a coaxial aerial lead is made, and they are designed with the intention of minimising radio reception. Up the outside or on a sidestay, no problem.
01-14-2009, 10:51 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Hello all!
I just wish to advise that I too utilise my backstay as my aerial on my own boat, a Victoria.
The backstay was created using insulated rigging wire secured at each end by being looped and crimped in aluminium tube. Instead of cutting the tail from the transom connection, I drilled a VERY small hole next to the backstay plate and fed the rigging wire through the hole. I then simply removed the insulation from the tail of the rigging wire and soldered it direct to the end of the receiver aerial. The transom hole was sealed with CA.
It has performed faultlessly to date.
Cheers,
Andrew
I just wish to advise that I too utilise my backstay as my aerial on my own boat, a Victoria.
The backstay was created using insulated rigging wire secured at each end by being looped and crimped in aluminium tube. Instead of cutting the tail from the transom connection, I drilled a VERY small hole next to the backstay plate and fed the rigging wire through the hole. I then simply removed the insulation from the tail of the rigging wire and soldered it direct to the end of the receiver aerial. The transom hole was sealed with CA.
It has performed faultlessly to date.
Cheers,
Andrew
01-17-2009, 05:18 AM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Hi Andrew,
Welcome to this forum!
You're new, so you don't know it's not allowed to talk about things you alter on your boat, without showing us some pictures of it...
Just kiddin' ofcourse, but pictures are always appreciated!
Regards, Jan.
Welcome to this forum!
You're new, so you don't know it's not allowed to talk about things you alter on your boat, without showing us some pictures of it...
Just kiddin' ofcourse, but pictures are always appreciated!
Regards, Jan.
01-18-2009, 09:39 PM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
Hi Jan!
Thanks for the "heads up".
Unfortunately, the boat is in drydock being repainted at the moment and is not much to look at.
If the results warrant photography, I shall show photos when done.
Cheers,
Andrew
Thanks for the "heads up".
Unfortunately, the boat is in drydock being repainted at the moment and is not much to look at.
If the results warrant photography, I shall show photos when done.
Cheers,
Andrew
01-20-2009, 03:11 AM
#24
RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
For what it's worth I have my antenna in straws glued under the foredeck as mentioned. I did this because it's set and forget. I don't have to worry about extra holes leaking or having to disconnect and reconnect the antenna everytime I remove the mast. Also I have sailed my boat away from me to the point I could not tell what way it was going (it was a loooong way away) and it worked perfectly. Something to consider.
01-20-2009, 06:08 AM
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RE: Receiver antenna up the mast ?
ORIGINAL: GRANT ED
For what it's worth I have my antenna in straws glued under the foredeck as mentioned. I did this because it's set and forget. I don't have to worry about extra holes leaking or having to disconnect and reconnect the antenna everytime I remove the mast. Also I have sailed my boat away from me to the point I could not tell what way it was going (it was a loooong way away) and it worked perfectly. Something to consider.
For what it's worth I have my antenna in straws glued under the foredeck as mentioned. I did this because it's set and forget. I don't have to worry about extra holes leaking or having to disconnect and reconnect the antenna everytime I remove the mast. Also I have sailed my boat away from me to the point I could not tell what way it was going (it was a loooong way away) and it worked perfectly. Something to consider.