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  1. #1

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    33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    You may know that this 33rd america's cup will be on multihulls and what multis !!! over 27m long, with huge sail area for Alinghi and a massively tall (68m) wing-mast for BMW Oracle's Tri.

    So here we're back again on the eternal dual of Cata vs Tri. From my experience of RC multi the Catamarans though with more potential being lighter they are much more extreme to helm as they capsize quickly but if you sail to conservatively you go too slow. At a contrast the Trimarans are a bit more stable, potentially more powerfull and typically heavier but one of their biggest advantage is their tacking ability as they can swing on the main hull without slowing down too much vs catamaran which have to be back on their 2 hulls to tack making it next to impossible to tack without speed.

    Today was no exception with BMW Oracle winning the first race. (( though I love tri I would love for the cup to stay in europe but now I am afraid it might be a one horse show as Alinghi finished a massive 10 minutes behind. They need to pull something magical out of their hat to close that gap. I saw over 2 knots in speed difference in favour of BMW so we'll see if Alinghi can pull it again. I hope so...

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    The biggest difference upwind was the pointing ability of the BMW oracle given by their wing mast. After giving a penalty to Alinghi they got stuck and alinghi sailed back to cross the line and take a big 600m lead but then once BMW Oracle powered up they managed to close that lead with marginally faster speed but with the biggest gain being their pointing ability produced by that wing mast vs "traditional sails".

    I know a few have tried wing mast on RC multi but I didn't the same results as the wing mast being a bit heavier and maybe the reduce scale is not producing the same benefits as for full size wing mast ??? I know I have a wide mast (25mm wide) on my 1.7m Jet Service catamaran which is also rotating but it is aluminum and only 1.8m tall so I'm not sure of it's benefits on speed vs a traditional mast apart from the look. I would love to try a 2.5m carbon mast on her to see the difference.


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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    While the boats are things of wonder, this actual AC, if repeated, could see the end of it being televised. It will no doubt carry on to provide rich brat's bragging rights, but they will wind up doing it in private. The last one, where enough teams could afford to start and compete, and a course that was small enough to manage, was a real spectacle. This one, with a long course and boats that have a very small window of opportunity to sail, has seen a basic non-event, certainly nothing to attract wide attention for any good reason. The most significant part of the series so far was probably Oracle winning the toss for start approach, and that wasn't televised. The exciting bit was the forcing of the penalty, after that, Oracle just ran away. With, in retrospect, Oracle's vast handling superiority, stability and a brilliant skipper, it is now going to be a one horse race. Not the sort of thing to attract media attention.

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    I agree with you - whilst these superb and rather extreme boats are a spectacle to see they have no place for the america's cup which should be a repeat of 2007 which attracted huge crowds and kept the interest throughout the LVC and then the AC with Alinghi. This 2 horse race which spent more time in court then on the water is too much like the AC of the US vs AUS where Denis Connor ran off with the cup with his cata vs the giant monohull of the ausies... It was a time to forget and this is a repeat....

    It is a pitty for the america's cup and LVC. To be honest I can't see many othersyndicatespooring the kind of money them two did (the rumour is c€150-€200m each)... makes you wonder... Anyway I think everyone is waiting for this little game to be over in order to get the AC back on its track with similar monohull (actually they don't have to create new ones - just use the one they have already built). It is so much more interesting.

    The problem nonetheless is the winner will take the cup home and right now I fear it will fly over the pond to the US... without taking anything away from spithill ability and skills I think BMW Oracle was just simply the better boat/sail vs Alinghi. The design and technology seems to play a bigger part of the end result then the men sailing them. At the end of the day in a match like this with quite radically different boats it is most likely that one of them will work better then the other making the hole race much less interesting then. I wouldn't rule out Alinghi yet thought they need something very special to win race 2. Tomorrow will tell ...

  5. #5
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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???


    ORIGINAL: GLX

    I agree with you - whilst these superb and rather extreme boats are a spectacle to see they have no place for the america's cup which should be a repeat of 2007 which attracted huge crowds and kept the interest throughout the LVC and then the AC with Alinghi. This 2 horse race Β*which spent more time in court then on the water is too much like the AC of the US vs AUS where Denis Connor ran off with the cup with his cata vs the giant monohull of the ausies... It was a time to forget and this is a repeat....Β*

    It is a pitty for the america's cup and LVC. To be honest I can't see many otherΒ*syndicatesΒ*pooring the kind of money them two did (the rumour is c€150-€200m each)... makes you wonder... Anyway I think everyone is waiting for this little game to be over in order to get the AC back on its track with similar monohull (actually they don't have to create new ones - just use the one they have already built). It is so much more interesting.

    The problem nonetheless is the winner will take the cup home and right now I fear it will fly over the pond to the US... without taking anything away from spithill ability and skills I think BMW Oracle was just simply the better boat/sail vs Alinghi. The design and technology seems to play a bigger part of the end result then the men sailing them. At the end of the day in a match like this with quite radically different boats it is most likely that one of them will work better then the other making the hole race much less interesting then. I wouldn't rule out Alinghi yet thought they need something very special to win race 2. Tomorrow will tell ...Β*
    to GLX:
    umm, just to point out a true fact. Australia won the ac in 83, got defeated in 87, then Peter Blake (from NZ) challenged for the cup with the 90ft LWL mono against Connor, NOT Australia or Aussies (please get your spelling correct!). the thing is this is the real america's cup, this is racing under the original format of the original races (just like Peter Blake's challenge) . the old ac boats suck. they need to use smaller faster boats if they want a decent competition. the fact that the crew was able to sail the boat on one hull and fully powered up for most of the race shows how much better they are as a team, i think (without the head to wind at the start) that even if the boats were closer in design BMWO would win, team work is so much better, spitihill is one of the best (if not the best) match racing helmsman at the moment. i find the multi's to be much more interesting than the mono's to watch (or they could just use 60ft skiffs!) than the lead bellies that they used in the last edition.

    to mfr02
    BMW Oracle has sailed in more breeze than any of the AC boats of the last edition are even designed for (they stop racing when the wind hits somewhere between 19-22 knots). its only been since 83 that the even has been televised around some of the world (thanks primarily to australia's out side of the box boat, A2). before that im pretty sure there was none or at most very little.

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    My point was that if a rich guy wants to set speed records using otherwise useless machinery, let him. It makes for an interesting half hours documentary covering several years work, and will probably attract a small minority of viewers on an obscure discovery channel.
    The technology for TV broadcasting worldwide simply did not exist before the '83 event, previous "coverage" consisted of a few seconds of newsreel. As I recall, the previous edition was the first to attract the full mass media treatment, and was a success, raising the profile of the event. This one could well kill that interest off for any future event.
    To provide a competition that attracts worldwide interest, there needs to something for locals around the world to be interested in. This implies making entrance more widely affordable. It should also be a competition of man and yacht on the water, not lawyer and computer against wallet.
    Take their batteries away. I accept that they are both wonderful creations, but there is much talk of Oracle having 200+ sensors looking after the wing, and the crew being wired for sound with the helmsman having HUD shades. Like I say, take the batteries away from all but emergency radios, and get back to actual sailing rather than serving a computer enclosure that happens to travel across water.

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    BMW Oracle 2-0.
    He's crazy Lew, he builds toy airplanes!"
    Frank Towns - Flight of the Phoenix (1965)

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    why would you want to do that. the ac is all about design and technology.. its never going to be an affordable event, its the america's cup, it never has been affordable, why do you think there hasn't been any decent challengers since OneAustralia, even back when it was "cheap" (would the 12m's be called cheap) they weren't cheap at all for how slow they went.. now we get to see what larry has in mind. at least it will be a much better creation than what ernie had in mind before with his P.O.S. 90 fters.

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    Take their batteries away and let them race yachts, not a glorified Wii. If the technology will not work without power, it has no place in a competitive ATHLETIC event.

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    are you scared of techonology or something? if you had control we would still be sailing rafts with square sails and no upwind ability

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???


    ORIGINAL: yachtie2k4

    are you scared of techonology or something? if you had control we would still be sailing rafts with square sails and no upwind ability
    As regards technological advance, fore and aft rigs have been around a long time (I do believe the ancient Egyptians had the arrangement running up and down the Nile).
    If the boat will not work without a squad of computers on board, it has stopped being a sport where people are properly involved. Like I said, a glorified Wii. If the technology assistance gets out of hand, you cease to have a sport where human skill and effort is needed. You just dial in the instructions and watch it do its thing. You could probably dispense with the crew. Taking that one step further, you dont bother with the boat either, just let it all happen on a Sim program and watch it on screen.
    As a showcase for a freaky boat going fast, this was a success.
    As a sporting event to capture the interest and imagination of the viewing public, it was a disaster. There was a grand total of about ten minutes in the entire week, involving the penalty manoeuvre, and up to the point where Oracle overtook.
    Media coverage does not come cheap, and the cost differential between setting up and running for a month and a half is probably not that much more than doing the same for a week. The media companies want a big return for their outlay, and they see this in viewing figures. Lose viewing figures, lose revenue, lose the show.

  12. #12
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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    i think you will still find the boat was controlled by people.. also most of the technology they were going to use, they didn't end up using on the boat, for instance the wind detection wasn't even on the boat according to the reports which i have read as it was too heavy as with the frictional reduction lubricants they were going to use (this would have given them a 3+ knot VMG advantage, so like 5 knots in speed over alinghi). i also think that you are wrong in it not working without a computer. the boat is still going to be able to sail, theres less loads on the wing than there are in a sail.. also you can leave the wing up on a mooring so long as it can swivel enough, there is no chance you will be able to do that with a sail. sailing will never be a good spectator sport to watch on tv. in real life it is when boats are going fast, but the only good boats to watch on tv are skiffs. it would be awesome to see the ac in skiffs, but it will never happen. i think it will be extremely interesting to watch the next ac as the boats will not be the same pos lead bellies that they have had in the past.

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    According to the commentators, there were 200+ sensors on the wing. This lot was there for a purpose, it was providing information. Pull the battery out, and you have an unsailable boat. Computer reads information, digests and translates it to instructions for the crew. Without the electronics in full working order, either the boat or its performance will suffer. The result of trying to sail without the electronics would rapidly be a raft or a wreck. This includes a wire falling off. Fully manual boats (and this is supposed to be a sport involving athletic ability, and the use of human senses in an environment supplied by nature) don't have this problem. They have to be designed to survive a slower reaction time. The main attraction of skiffs was their propensity to ground loop, probably not a good idea in a 90 foot boat.
    In the case of Oracle, the sail had to be left erected, and an overnight crew installed in case it decided to wander off. Not the best arrangement for real life use, and any improvements that racing is supposed to give should be translatable in some way to the real world.
    Evolution is a great tool for advancement, but it has to be recognised that it also runs up a lot of blind alleys.
    In 2007 we had about 11 teams in the challenge series to follow and cheer on or groan over as appropriate for over a month. This time round, two teams, two processions. It dragged out to a week because the boats, although only suitable for a long course, were incapable of dealing with the changes of conditions inherent in a long course that couldn't be changed. The first two were cancelled, the last one nearly didn't happen when the SNG race committee threw their collective rattle out of their pram and tried to prevent the second race happening.
    The courses set in 2007 were compact enough to allow for rearrangement at short notice because the boats were manoeuvrable when racing. The compactness of the course allowed for spectators on shore, which was much appreciated by Valencia for the months worth of publicity and the tourist trade. This time round, a week of very little. Other venues might well take note that all they will get out of it is at best a couple of weeks hassle.

  14. #14
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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    omg you are so full of ****. the yanks have had the boat out in conditions worse than what the 2nd start was cancelled for (waves that were only 4-6ft tall) the first start was cancelled because of no wind. in 07 we had mutual consent to what boats to use. in this edition we had Alinghi try and use a fake club to be the challenger of record which was illegal and it was only BMWO who called bull**** on it. if alinghi had been able to get away with it i can garuantee there wouldn't have been anywhere near as many challengers as they wanted to use 90ft lead bellies.
    wings are used by a few classes now, most notably the C class cats, there have been a couple in use on some A class cats too. even on the old ac boats there are a ****load of sensors to tell the crew what is happening. just because they had all those sensors didn't stop them to sailing it beyond what the sensors warnings were, in both races they had all the warnings from the sensors going off and still the boat held together.
    the designers of the wing have said that with the right rigging you could quite easily leave a wing up in any wind.
    i think you need to read some more up on this cause it is pretty obvious that you haven't followed everything.
    you are obviously not wanting technology to evolve, without computers we wouldn't be anywhere near where we are now. it is quite funny how you will accept that its ok to use computers to design and build (yes build, they use cnc machines for lots of parts these days) but not to use whilst sailing. they are just another tool for us to use to get the most out of the boats.
    what the hell do you mean by "ground loop" btw?

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    Ground loop is a description of what happens when the planes wheels, being in contact with the ground, stop while the plane is moving, and the plane doesn't. In boat terms, quite spectacular when a fast moving Marblehead finds some unexpected weed with its fin, or when a skiff digs in and trips up". Loop the loop, but at ground, or water surface, level.
    The fact remains that the previous edition attracted a large audience, and in the area where it was held, was a commercial success. The sponsor of the qualifying series took one look at the proposed rules, and pulled out. I just can't see any venue sanctioning the amount of disruption that this kind of racing entails without a good return. Or at least, not more than once.
    I recall the previous sensors. They were a guy pulled up the mast to get a good view of the water ahead, and telltales that the winchman watched, then shouted at his winders to adjust. Lots of hi-tech in the design and construction, low tech sailing with a lot of expertise. Because the boats were built to a formula, there was actual racing, not a procession.
    Question is, is there going to be a 34th? If there is, is there going to be enough media interest to send a team, or a photographer? Or just ask if a local has put a clip on YouTube?

  16. #16
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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    i think you need to read up some more and learn some more about sailing. what you call ground loop is called a cartwheel in sailing. also the acc boats of last also had a ****load of sensors onboard, i know cause i worked with a guy who has being involved in the construction & maintenance of a fair few of them.
    the reason for the debacle in the latest ac was because ernie b is a lying cheating asswipe and wanted the cup for himself, bmwo was the only challenger who had the money and balls to stand up to him and call him on his bs.
    the next edition looks to be set in San Francisco in hopefully 60ft multi's. it will be better than any other ac that has been televised in the last 10 years. and also because if it is set in SF they will be able to set it near the shore so lots of opportunity for decent spectator view points.

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    RE: 33rd America's cup - Multi dual cat or tri ???

    the reason for the debacle in the latest ac was because ernie b is a lying cheating asswipe and wanted the cup for himself,
    No arguments there.
    Its just rather unfortunate that he who holds the cup gets to stack the deck, so it winds up, with a very few exceptions, just being a spoilt brat's p*ss*ng match.


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