Flying Fox

Stepehen,
Thanks for the compliment on my colours. I will try to show a realistic overlap in the lozenge pattern by making each lozenge shape on the stencil slightly larger.

Do a search for Allan Flowers - Siemens Schukert aircraft, again you will see he is quite a craftsman.

Cheers

Flying Fox

I’m starting with the dummy engine because a good part of it is hidden behind the side cowls, only the cylinders protrude - I am just getting back into RC modelling after an 18+ year building hiatus. My second flying model and first ever scale model was my DH-2 shown in my posting under “Best Scale Photo�.

You see by starting with the dummy engine I can hide all my mistakes under the cowl panels! [&:] This is also why I’m starting with the exhaust side of the engine, it will be less visible as only the intake side cowl will be removeable.

To the engine block I’ve added some spackling filler to blend the top panel into the sloping sides of the cylinder block and to continue the cylindrical shape of the block where the rocker arm rods enter the block. Basswood pieces make up the triangular bracing flanges on the engine block, and so to for the rectangular cooling openings.

The exhaust side of the engine has two intake ports that pass transversely through the engine block and by doing so preheat the air before it enters the carburetors located on the intake side. The forward port is concealed by a metal air scoop and the oil tank so I don’t need to model it. The rear intake port is exposed and is covered by a flange with a debris screen. I’ve modelled it from basswood sanded to shape and flanged with black copper strips bent to shape around the basswood and painted black. A bead of white glue on the lip gives it further dimension. The debris screen and inner working of the engine behind the screen are simply an illusion - I photoshopped these and glued them into place. I think the illusion works if you compare my engine with the real Benz Bz IV engine I’m modelling.

I know it’s a slow start and still a long ways to go on just the engine block itself but I’m pleased so far…

Cheers,
Brian

abufletcher

An extremely impressive start and clearly that 18 year hiatus hasn't affected your skills. Your post also proves what I've always said, namely, that great scale modeling begins with great knowledge.

Madman

Fox

Yes, lozenge is quite the starting point for 'discussion'. I have seen the L*A*B discussion elsewhere (theaerodrome maybe?). Even that has opened a can of worms!

Presently I have a 1/4 scale Fokker D.VII (OAW) I picked up 90% finished from a guy. If interested see the discussion on RCCanada by Big John. He lost interest and made me an offer I couldn't refuse. Of course the last 10% takes 1/2 the time <VBG>. It is covered in the lozenge made by wildmann graphics.

http://www.wildmanngraphics.net/Prod...oductCode=LOZ1

I think his upper surface colours are good but his lower surface has a bright orange in place of the bright yellow. I also have 4 rolls (2 upper 2 lower) of the fabric sold by Balsa USA. It was done by wildmann but in different colours. Apparently he printed using a sign graphics printer onto natural or linen Solartex. He would print each colour in a separate pass. This gave good looking overlaps which were inconsistant along the length of the print run (similar to what I assume one would find in a long bold of original cloth). Since he had to run each peice 5 times there was wastage from errors and setting up is a pain.

From what I can see Arizona prints all colours in one pass. Since I am working from their on-line photos I cannot tell if there is any overlap or the colours but up against each other. If you went this way you could 'estimate' an overlap and adjust your pattern accordingly or just not bother. Based on what I guess from their on line pics it may be printed on white as the colours look very bright and clear. Using natural makes the colous 'dissapear' into the weave, if you understand what I mean.

Both these guys are printing onto Solartex or equivalent using commercial printers for sign graphics. If you have a company who prints the full colour signs for trucks or cars in your area they can do the job but will have to adjust for the material printed on. This may require a try or two first to get the output colours and handling of the material correct. There is a place near where I work (MIssissauga) who does this and from what I recall the price is not bad. Basically what you would pay for wildmann or Arizona's product including the cost of material. The inks used are intended for outdoors use and have a good life. Especially as ours do not live outside 24/7 for years. Also I ASSUME spraying with a protective clear coat like UV stabilized urethane would help. Since any finish will have to be protected from exhaust residue, etc. this has to be done anyways. I fly electric but will be clear coating my planes as the other guys in my club still fly glow and gas.

Yes I have looked into doing this myself but as I am working in 1/4 scale I am leaning towards GTMs printed fabric. Especially as my club will let me dope and store my components in our storage container while finishing, my choice has pretty much been settled. The D.VII I picked up was designed an build for gas and so is very heavy for my needs. I have converted it and will keep the covering as is but intend on building another much lighter one for my electric power system. I will be flying the converted one to get used to the size and handling of this large of a plane and power system.

As to scale props one of the benefits of electrics is I am able to fly on a scale prop. I have a power system in hand for my next plane which is able to spin a 28" prop at 4300 rpms. Getting a large prop with enough pitch is the issue here. I have leads on 27 to 28" props with more pitch, 16" to 18" would be ideal but they are rare and/or expensive. Maybe I will have to look at making my own as well. At 1/6 scale you are probably looking at 18" to 20" props which are very do-able in electric and can be gotten in sufficient pitch.

As an aside on colours have you looked at the Albatros D.Va built by The Vintage Aviator Ltd (TVAL) ? I have downloaded and saved all their info from their website on this and revisited the covering page. The colours are very bright compared to yours. If I remember correctly they are similar to the ones on the Smithsonian 'STROPP'. There was also a thread somewhere (theaerodrome.com if I remember correctly) showing a number of their planes after months and years of use and how they are weathering and where the stains, dirt build-up and patterns are forming. One shot shows the bottom of the Albatos after a few months. You can see the underside of the wings and the colours are much more muted than during the build/covering. I assume this is a combination of the dope, varnish and time. However, there is a distinct green lozenge in the bottom which you do not show. I don't recall if there has been a discussion about the colours on the TVAL Albatros. Do you know of one?

As to scale motors, etc. I have been trying to get info on the 185 hp BMW, especially dimensioned scale drawings which can be read. Tom Polapink sent me one from WWI Aero which is good but still a little lacking. Between that and lots of pictures I have found on line I should be OK. Some guys have asked why worry as the differences are truthfully small and frankly there are probably only a couple dozen guys in all of North America who would recognize the differences without relying on documentation. My answer has always been it is as much work to make a good looking Mercedes as a BMW so might as well get it right. Now it looks like the prototype I am considering used the Mercedes anyways. Go figure!

I am on dial up and have to share my internet (and phone) time with the rest of the family so I will have to look at the Flowers build as time and access allows. Thank you for the link and heads up.

Stephen

Flying Fox

Stephen - thanks for the detailed info here. I will reply over the next couple of days when I have a bit of time.
Thanks

Flying Fox

Just a quick update here.
The engine crankcase/block was filled with polyfilla filler where needed, then sanded and sculpted to shape with files, emery board and steel wool. This took a fair bit of work to get it looking just right. Most work was needed on the rounded pushrod fairings to get them to shape. Also to blend the top plate into the sides so as to leave a discernable line. After initial shaping it was primed with white Tremclad primer, sanded lightly and sprayed with black textured Tremclad spraypaint, then sanded, filled, sprayed with textured paint, sanded again, etc. several timers until it began to look good. Finally two coats of silver Tremclad were applied.

The crankcase is looking okay now - I needed to apply the silver just to see how the model compares visually to the photos of the real engine.
There are still a few touchups to do on some of the seams and a couple of little additions to the front end.
When I am satisfied that all is looking really good then I will paint the entire block with a coat of German engine block aluminum paint.
Here are a few photos, what do you think?

Cheers,
Brian

abufletcher

I think it looks damn fine! In fact, if there were anyplace in my C! model to stick such a crankcase, I'd absolutely be planning on following your lead on this. As it is, there's just barely room for the cylinders. I like the cast look of the textured paint.

gabriel voisin

Hi Brian,

please look here, it's the best what you find.

http://thevintageaviator.co.nz/proje...ne-restoration

greetings Gabriel

Madman

FF

No problem. I do tend to go on and on... I was just hoping I hadn't steped on any toes. It kind of went dead for a while.

One thing I read as a kid in a modeling magazine is a great way to be impartial about your workmanship is photograph it in B&W then compare with photos of the full scale details. Try to keep in mind how much detail you really need. But, I found it an excellent way to remove your ego from the 'how does it really look' self critism.

Stephen

Flying Fox

Good to know it can be done by someone here in the GTA and that I can get what I deem to be "my" proper colours. I also like the idea that the cost is reasonable to have the lozenge printed up commercially for the same price I could buy lozenge whose colours I don’t agree with.

I think GTM’s lozenge is a very reasonable interpretation of lozenge colours. I have seen some photos posted on the various forums and they look very good. In my opinion I find the STROPP colours to bright and garish. I do not dispute anyone’s research, I just think the whole lozenge camouflage issue implies more subtle colours. I’m not sure if there has been a discussion about the TVAL Albatros, I will have to look into it sometime.

It sounds like you have a good knowledge/experience with electrics for large models. If I may impose on you for some help I have never used electrics before but I like the ability to fly scale props with electrics. I will need help determining a suitable electric engine, speed controler, battery pack, etc. One thing I need to know before I commit to electric is how long is flight times with electrics. I am used to 15-20 minute flights at my field when it is not busy. With gas engines this is not a problem because i use large gas tanks and do not always fly at full throttle. How long does a typical batter pack last and how long does it take to recharge so you can go up and fly again?

Cheers,
Brian

Flying Fox

Gabriel,

Thanks for the link, the Vintage Aviator website is an excellent source if info for WWI modellers. I look to it quite frequently.
I often think of wanting to have flown in one of these magnificent WWI birds - but on a warm summer day, certainly not under fire, and most definitely not as an observer/gunner "hanging out" in a FE2B![]
But I do enjoy all aspects of WWI aviation!

Cheers
Brian

Madman

I have seen the Stropp in person but the room it is in is so dim I find it difficult to pick up much info. I know it is to help preserve the planes but you are likely to bump in to them first! (not really but it is dark) Most of my experience is from the Smithsonian book. Yes the colours look garish but strong pixelations work as well. Don't remember the colour theory (some industrial design courses and lots of after school/summer arts programs as a teen) but I seem to remember strong colours work better in real light and distances.

I like the GTM colours but wish they were a little bolder as I hope to build my D.V(a) as done by TVAL. I have seen a lot of discussions in the plastic model forums on smaller scale objects needing to be lighter and greyer than scale in order to 'look' correct. If you see a discussion on the TVAL Alb please post the link. I too have wondered why it hasn't come up on theaerodrome.

I have a little knowledge and less experience. This will be my first (of a few I hope) 1/4 scale electrics. I have done some 1/5 and 1/6 but they were old school (Astro brushed systems and NiCads). I have an AXI which can swing a 24x15 and runs on an 8 cell (24V to 30V) pack and a Scorpion which turns a 28" prop on a 12 cell pack. I will be happy to help advise and we can use simulator programs to compare systems. I prefer the A123 cells which seem to have more durability than LiPos but at increased weight and slightly lower voltages. As for duration 10-15 minutes should be no problem, 20 mins is do-able with the following provisions. Like fuel tanks batteries can be purchased or built for greater capacities. But unlike fuel tanks the weight increases for increased capacities is much larger. Charge times are on the order of an hour. If you must fly more frequently then multiple packs swapped out between flights have been the solution for years. I find one flight an hour is fine for larger scale planes as I like the down time. For sport planes I have up to 4 packs per plane. Some charged, others cooling or charging between flights. Just battery management.

Stephen

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

I saw Stroop when it was still in the restoration facility in Md. It was very impressive sitting there on the floor in front of me. I walked over to it and just admired the plane. Il looked like a piece of fine furniture.

The colors for the restored plane are Strong for sure but lets remember how they got that way. During dis-assenbly of the plane it was learned that the ailerons had the same fabric that was used to cover the plane, wrapped around the metal aileron frame work. Through all the life of the plane this material had been sheilded from most effects of weathering, UV etc due to being underlying fabric. It's from those samples that the restorted colors were reproduced.

Thats a difficult bit of historical evidence to overlook

Flying Fox

Alright, before I continue any further with my Benz Bz IV crankcase/engine block I thought I’d better work up a “proof of concept� for the engine cylinders. After all it is the engine cylinders that will really showcase the front end of the LVG CVI. Thought I'd cut my teeth on the engine block where things won't be too visible on the finished model.

I really like Abufletcher’s concept of resin casting the cylinders from a detailed master but that will have to wait for now. I will build mine up from wood, plastic and paper tubing with the goals being lightweight, accurate profile and detail. Nose weight can always be added if necessary into the hollow crankcase in the form of epoxy soaked lead shot.

Lightweight paper tubes from Aluminum foil wrap packages form the basic cylinder shape and provide good structural integrity. It took some searching to find the correct diameter tubes but as all scale modelers know you must be a good scrounger to come up with suitable bits and pieces to make various components.

To simulate the rounded expansion rings in the cylinder I used six pieces of 2mm half round styrene plastic strips cut to length, wrapped around the tubes, and glued up with cyano-acrylate. I lined up each joint so they will simulate the weld that runs vertically down the cylinder. 1/64 thick balsa sheeting was cut to with and wrapped around the tubes on either side of the plastic rings to build up the proper diameter of the cylinder.

I selected a hole saw that would cut out the correct diameter wooden plug to form the cylinder heads. Next, a plank of pine, planned to the correct thickness, was drilled using the hole saw on a drill press to drill out the cylindrical plugs for the cylinder heads. Several extras were made. The hole saw conveniently drills out a ¼� hole dead center on the heads through which a ¼� dowel rod can be inserted. Cylinder heads are sanded to shape and beveled appropriately to match the profile on the engine diagrams.

The pine cylinder head fits tightly onto the dowel rod. The tube with the plastic rings is slipped over the dowel rod and this assembly can then be inserted into engine crankcase by fitting the dowel rod into a hole drilled into the top of the engine block. None of these parts are glued up yet, just dry fitted. Epoxy will be used to glue up the components when ready.

I have left the bottom white part of the cylinders a little long. I have to determine how I will mate the cylinder with its octagonal base flange. I am thinking I will make the octagonal base flanges and hold down dogs and brackets integral to the engine block. That way they will remain level as they should even if I have to adjust each cylinder slightly for vertical alignment.

Comparing my cylinder mock-ups to the plans I think my proof of concept idea as to how to make the cylinders is valid. It is simple and easily duplicated – it works! So far my engine block weighs about 85 grams and the engine cylinder comes in at ~ 8 grams. So six cylinders and the engine block total to ~133 grams - keeping it light weight, just what I want.

I can go ahead now and make up the six cylinders and probably a few extras in case I make mistakes in the detailing of them. Once the components are made the cylinder assemblies can then be glued up, filled and sanded to shape, and all the little details added to each cylinder. This will take some time to do so…

Cheers,
Brian

TFF

I think the Stropp is pretty correct for 5 lozenge. From the book, I dont think anyone could have done a better job trying to find the correct colors. What is funny is a couple of the experts show colors that are almost the exact same but call them different; without being in 1918 too close to call. Also Stropp is restored to "new" condition as if it had never been rolled out of the factory; with the mess they started with that was all they could do. Stick it outside for 6 months and it wont look the same. 5 color was probably the least favorite lozenge most were 4 color which leads to the perception that it should look like the 4. To me the GTM stuff is too dark and too blue jean like. The TVAL Albatros uses the Smithsonian colors for reference and I think they wanted to be different than the Canberra one which is 4 color.

Madman

Brian

Sorry we seem to be totally hijacking this thread. I think if we want to take this further we should start a new thread.

BTW did you get my PMs?

Stephen

Madman

Brian

Cylinders look good. Great idea about the paper towel roll. If I do build a BMW I'll have to look around for a suitable tube as a basis. Any ideas about smoothing/filling the grain on the wood and any gaps? I was just thinking, heat shrink tubing. I have two types. One is very thin and hard after use, the other is thicker and stays more rubbery after shrinking. Only problem with either is the force the shrinking action may impose on the underlying structure. If you don't shrink as much the force is less. Use less heat, hold the heat gun further away, etc. to vary the heat. The rubbery type has a little surface finish which may work better. The harder is very smooth.

As for casting, I wonder how much heavier the cylinders would be. Could you not insert a core to reduce the material in the casting? One option would be make the core out of foam and leave it in or make a harder one with mold release and cast hollow parts. Still a learning curve but what the hey.

Stephen

Flying Fox

Stephen,

I received your PMs and have responded, thanks, I really enjoy the discussions with you, I just don't always have the time to get back to you right away.


Hijacking, no not at all, but Lozenge topics, tell me about it... []

It is my humble opinion that lozenge is in the eye of the beholder - colour theory in general is such a subjective topic, and as far as lozenge colour goes everyone seems to have their personal preference for various reasons, and all are usually quite legitimate, especially when they are backed by direct examination and research into surviving samples. I would never even pretend to criticize these archivists/restoration people who are so lucky as to be able to work with the original material. It seems like there is such a variety of genuine samples of lozenge out there, that have in turn undergone various degrees of weathering, numerous methods of analysis from simple flash photography to high-end photochemical and colour comparisons, and all this reflected in a variety of ways of interpreting/displaying/representing/replicating the findings either in written, photographic, or paint chip form.

I respect all of these researchers and their work. Lozenge colours are such a touchy subject and I do not want my build topic to turn into a lozenge debate or argument. I do enjoy discussing and debating various aspects of lozenge as long as it remains civil – but yes, a separate forum topic would be suitable. I’ve found that Lozenge colour discussions often seem to bring out the worst in some people who get upset with just the mention of lozenge colours. I’ve read posts on other forums that unfortunately end up with some participants bashing each other about. So you really have to be careful to whom you speak about it.

Hijacking or lack of respect – not at all -this has not been the case on my build. Thanks to all those who have posted thus far – I appreciate and respect all the input, ideas and comments.

As modellers we have the wonderful opportunity to basically do as we please – after all it is our own model! As far as lozenge goes, use something you've seen in a museum or publication, or photograph, or colour chips, or use what a particular company prints up for you, or make up your own colours. Use whatever documentation you deem appropriate for your case. As long as you can justify your choice to yourself, then all is good, it really doesn't matter what others think!

As I stated earlier, Lozenge is all in the eye of the beholder. I have narrowed down what I think is appropriate for my model, but the verdict is not in yet... will have to wait and see when I get to that aspect of my build.

Cheers,
Brian

Flying Fox

Stephen,

I like using Pollyfilla spackling compound, slightly watered down - it really fills gaps and imperfections and is easily sanded. When finished it can be primed and painted, or clear coated.

heat shrink tubing what a great idea! I will have to look in to it. I don't think it would compromise the structural integrity of the tube. A cylinder is one of the strongest structures. What I'll have to watch for is that it might increase the diameter of the cylinder too much - but maybe if I leave off the balsa bands...hmmm[>:]

A foam plug in the casts - yes, good to lighten them up or you could hollow/drill them out after they've cured as Abufletcher did for the cylinders of his Albatroc CI build. BTW his resin cast cylinders sure look good. Check out his build on this forum as he has posted the mass of his cylinders and a great 'how to' series of postings. Very little clean up to do on the casted cylinders.

Cheers,
Brian

abufletcher

Your current weight of 8 grams per cylinder is good, but you can expect that to go up to probably over 15g once you're finished them to the same detail and finish (which is still incomplete) as my resin cylinders. Bare in mind that my master was only 21g. And I used ply and liteply disks. Had I used balsa disks, I could have probably gotten down to about 15g.

You wouldn't believe how many "tubes" of various sorts I looked at at "potential cylinders" before decided to make my own! I even found an aluminum "turkey baster brush" that even had the "expansion rings." The main legs of my EIII were made from parts of a table lamp! But more recently in my scale building, I've come to that point where I realize that as often as not, it's faster to make the whole thing from scratch that it is to spend the time to modify some existing object.

If you're serious about going electric, you're going to have to count every gram, but the plus side is that you don't have to worry so much about vibration.

Madman

Sorry Abu but it is no longer necessary to watch every gram. Today's power systems can match or exceed many glow and gas motors, however, grossly overweight airframes are to be avoided just like fuel powered ones. As an example I am converting a 1/4 D.VII originally built for 50cc to 62 cc gas motors. Motor, speed control and battery pack (suitable for 15 + mins) weigh 105 oz. A Zenoah 62 weighs 85 oz. I don't know how much a typical fuel load, tank etc. would be but I assume 20 oz would not be unreasonable. The airframe was built for gas and could easily loose 2 lbs in the form of a heavy firewall and other overbuilding in the nose of the plane plus extra weight in the landing gear etc. brought on by the higher total weight. My power system swings a 24x15 at 4000 rpms. A static thrust of 20 lbs and a pitch speed of 60 mph. I don't know comparable figures for a G62 but this should be just fine for a 1/4 scale D.VII. I know a lot of guys have to add enough weight in BUSA 1/4 D.VIIs and similar so that just using a G62 gives them the right weight in the nose and allows them to swing the bigger props.

Stephen

abufletcher

My ignorance about electric is all-encompassing...and I intend to keep it that way! I say that if god had intended man to fly with electric, he wouldn't have given us internal combustion engines!

BTW, another nice use for heat-shrink tubing on a dummy engine is to simulate the treated leather "wraps" that were used back then to connect the hot plumbing.

Madman

Abu

My ignorance of Gas is the same, although I try not to be too near sighted. You never know where this hobby will take you in the years to come.

I have always been interested in electrics but back when I got into RC the second time (early '90s) knowledgeable people were few and far between. I didn't find a great group of guys, the Electric Model Flyers of Southern Ontario (EMFSO), until a couple of years later. I have never gotten completely out of glow and did contemplate gas for a while but for me electrics are most suitable. Of course I always liked doing things a little different and that has helped. Now days electrics are getting too popular so who knows what next!

Do you have a pic or two of the leather 'wraps' you are talking about? I know there are a lot of hose sections between pipe lengths and the asbestos wrap on the exhaust manifolds.

Stephen

abufletcher

I'll look around my harddrive, but I'm not sure. What I think we're talk about is precisely those "hose sections" you mention. Since the materials for synthetic hoses didn't exist at that time (or perhaps not until later in the war), these "hoses" were often made of chemically treated leather, which was then wrapped around the connections and held in place with circular clamps.

Flying Fox

Don & Stephen,

Might these photos show the leather hose wraps?
I'm not sure if they are original leather wraps or replacement hoses. The clamps look pretty neat. One of the hose wraps is broken.

Brian