cocobear

My Feedback: (2)

My friend Thayer Syme made some rims and hubs on his sherline CNC rig as the wheels we purchased for our 36" Albatros B1s proved unsatifactory. I finaly found time at my inlaws on Saturday to lace them. Made some tires for both of us on a mandrel and here is the results.

DJ

Laird SS

They look great. You do good work!!

abufletcher

Those rims (and the hubs) are perfect! Perfect enough for me to fantasize about buying my own Sherline mill. But after reading the following on the Sherline website, I guess I'm just going to stick with hand tools.

"What a Sherline CNC system won't do

Beginners often ask, "Can I scan a sketch of a part and the machine will make it for me?" Unfortunately, the answer is "No." There is a lot more to CNC machining than that, regardless of which brand of system you decide to use. Considerations such as tools to be used, spindle speeds, how the part will be held, where the "home" position will be located and the order in which the cuts will be made are decisions that must be made by the operator before a part can be made. An axis driven by a stepper motor must receive instructions in a language it understands, so if you use a CAD program, the vector information of the CAD drawing format must be translated into a text format that the machine understands. This language tells the stepper motor how fast to turn, in which direction and how many "steps" to take for each move. The language your Sherline machine understands is called "G-code," and you can get your ideas from design to G-code in one of three ways: 1) You can use trig to calculate key points and write the code yourself, 2)You can use the ability of drawing programs like AutoCad® to locate key points on your CAD drawings making it easier for you write the g-code yourself, or 3) You can use a "translator" program to translate your .dxf, or .stl format CAD drawings directly into g-code. Full-featured CAD/CAM programs are also capable of outputting G-code from the CAM portion of the program after you create the drawing in the CAD portion. If you are working with a Windows CAD program, it can be run on a Windows machine, the translated G-code saved as a text file on a CD, DVD or flash drive and transferred to the Linux computer. The G-code is then opened in your EMC or EMC2 program and run. The Linux desktop looks and works almost the same as the Windows® desktop you are probably familiar with, so learning to operate within Linux should not be a major obstacle. You do not need to "learn Linux" any more than you need to "learn Windows" in order to use it to run a program.

We stress that potential customers need to be realistic about the difficulty of making good parts using a CNC machine. It can be quite challenging even for someone who already knows a lot about machining. If you are new to both machining and to CNC you have two big learning curves ahead of you. We have done all we can to make it easy to get started by designing a plug-and-play component system, but like learning a foreign language, there are no shortcuts to getting your faithful robot to make parts for you. You will have to do some learning and some logical thinking. It will do EXACTLY what you tell it to, right or wrong. If it receives a bad instruction it may do nothing at all, and it will be up to you to analyze the code to figure out what you did wrong. Fortunately, there is a "backplot" program included in the EMC that allows you to pre-run the part and visually see the tool path on your monitor screen to make sure there are no errors before cutting the actual part. The size and power of the machine limits how much damage can be done during the learning process. We also provide written instructions that make learning G-code both interesting and fun. If you follow them to the letter, you be able to conquer CNC machining. If you are already familiar with CNC you will find this a very straightforward system to operate. If you are new to CNC, you will find this a great system to help you learn."

Thayer

Abu,

Yeah, that section from Sherline is a little offputting, but if it is any consolation, there is actually very little CNC work in these parts. I turned the rims and hubs on my manual Sherline lathe. I then used a simple peck-drilling sequence on my A2Z CNC Monster Mill to create the spoke holes using CNC. Yes, the holes were located on the hub using CNC on my mill, but would have been just as easy to locate the old fashion way using the manual dials. In fact, I have no question that I could have made those first parts faster manually than using CNC. CNC will definitely make repetitive parts faster overall though. The Monster Mill was developed by A2Z CNC owner, Tim Goldstein, himself a Sherline dealer. It is essentially a Sherline mill on steroids and fully compatible with nearly all Sherline accessories.

I also used a peck-drilling sequence for the holes in the rim but I indexed them using a manually driven rotary table. It would be relatively easy to make these wheel parts with nothing more than a manual Sherline lathe with some simple tooling and a little creativity. The milling column and sensitive drilling accessories would be nice additions, but not necessary. The rotary table is a luxury for a project like this. You could easily index the rim or hub using a graduated paper tape wrapped around the chuck. I am a big fan of my Sherline tools and find it hard to think about making such parts without some sort of similar capability.

Thayer

abufletcher

Thanks for those insights. For over a year now I've been trying to get a handle on what a lathe and/or mill could do for my modeling, but it always just looks like getting into an entirely new hobby instead of just "learning a new tool." It's good to hear that you could have done without the CNC...as that always seems like more of an industrial process more suited to commercial production than something for the modeler who needs "one off" parts. I think what appeals to be most about lathes and mills as tools is the ability to make micro-millimeter precise cuts and holes. Maybe what I really need is just a precision 2-axis table vice to put under my drill press.

abufletcher

By the way, I don't want to distract from the amazing beauty of these scale wheels. Maybe it would be better to move this discussion of mills and lathes to another thread (or continue a similar discussion I think I started some time ago).

Great work on these wheels, guys! How were the tires made?

cocobear

My Feedback: (2)

Tires are laser cut 6mm foam rubber that is then mounted on a special maandrel and ground to shape. BTW, for my hobby stuff, I vastly prefer a manual mill and lathe as is much easier making onsy,twosy parts on one. I have made a number of complete multi cylinder 4 strokes on my WW2 surplus lathe and $600 Chinese mill. Abu, getting a mill and lathe opens doors you never new existed. you can literally make anything with a little thought.

DJ

Thayer

Thanks for the kind words on the wheels. I used to make similar ones that were much simpler and smaller for Free Flight models and have long wanted to "up the ante" for my smaller RC models.

FWIW, Dave's engines are incredible to see and I am very tempted to consider doing something similar myself. I agree with him, manual machines usually make more sense for ones and twos. Don't get a two axis table for your drill press thinking you will be able to mill with it. Drill presses are not designed for side loading and will soon develop slop in the spindle. Great for locating holes, but not much else that I can see.

Thayer

abufletcher

I need something like an online or DVD course demonstrating what is possible with a lathe and a mill in a step by step way. I've watched a number of YouTube videos but most are more geared towards industrial processes, rather than showing what these machines can do for models. For example, it would be useful to see (or read) a step-by-step description of how to create rims and hubs and turnbuckles and so on. And it's really more of the "non-cylindrical" so ons that I'd be more interested in. At this point, I just don't have any clear idea of what sorts of task could better be done on a lathe vs. a mill vs. some other method.

Let's take an example. Suppose I wanted to create a Lewis gun out of aluminum parts. And let's just limit it to the ammo drum and the gun body. Which parts of the project would be suitably done on a lathe and which would be suitably done on a mill and which steps really can't be done on either?

abufletcher

I can imagine bringing one of these back with me to Japan sometimes. What could I do with it?

http://www.harborfreight.com/7-inch-...the-93212.html

Somehow a mill appeals to me more than a lathe though...but I think that's probably because I'm thinking more in terms of producing non-cylindrical / non-symmetrical metal parts.

abufletcher

Here's a nice little video (with some info at the beginning on where to get more info):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dlBjI...eature=related

http://www.mini-lathe.com/

Thayer

Well, the Lewis Gun ammo drum would be pretty easy to make look great.
I am using the following link for reference.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...t_Thomas_1.JPG

First I would turn an appropriate sized cylinder with the lathe, then move the chuck to the mill and use a small ball end mill to create the 25 grooves along the top and down the sides. The rest of the top detail could be created pretty quickly with a conventional end mill. Depending on how much you wanted to put into it, you could even spot drill the rivet locations and press in small rivets turned on the lathe. The gun body itself can be as detailed as you want, especially given that the original Lewis guns were machined with essentially the same equipment.

We have a HF store that just opened about a mile away and a few days I went in and turn the handles a bit on that same lathe to get a feel for it. After using a Sherline for over 10 years I can only say that I was rather underwhelmed. No question you will need to spend a fair bit of time tuning the stock machine to bring it up to snuff. Given that you are looking for a tool and not a new hobby, I would recommend laying hands on both machines if at all possible before making your decision.

Thayer

abufletcher

Thanks, Thayer. Slowly I'm starting to form an image of work might progress...and that really you can't just have a a lathe OR a mill...you really have to have both. I have "laid hands upon" the HF mini-lathe. And, yes, it has the "made in China" feel to it. I just don't know if I could reasonable spend more than about $500 for a lathe...and at least that much for a mill...and then that much again for necessary tools. I'm already feeling a bit unreasonable with what I already spend on my hobby. [X(]

But I must admit that the Sherline 4500 lathe looks very nice for about $230 more, but at less than half the weight. That's a big issue for me since I'd be hauling it back to Japan as airline baggage. It looks, thought, someone less "robust" than the HF mini-lathe. Is the power comparable? Maybe the HF lathe is just crudely built.

http://www.sherline.com/4500pg.htm

MerlinV

As a qualified Tool Maker (no longer in the trade though), I would buy a Lathe in a flash if I could afford it.
You can do heaps with a Lathe Abu... it's where out training started (actually, it started on a bench, with a block of cast iron, a vice and a course file, but that's another story).

The tools you need with a Mill to make it worth while are probably as much capital expenditure as the Mill itself (Rotary table, universal dividing head, slotting attachment, etc). Really, you can do pretty much everything with clever marking out and careful filing with a drill press and a vice that you can do with a Mill. The Mill just makes it much easier and quicker.

So far, my shed only sports a scroll saw and a drill press... My next big investment will probably be the Lathe.

Love those wheels!

Hugh

LesUyeda

Abu. If there is an "adult" shop class in machine tools, you might try that. I know that all my kids started there, just so they had some knowledge of what was what, not for an avocation.

Les

Thayer

If you go the Sherline route spring the extra few dollars for the 4400 lathe with the extended bed. You will be glad you did more often than you can imagine. I have the 4400 and would never give up the extra working room.

Thayer

abufletcher

As I mentioned above, one HUGE plus of the Sherline over the HF mini-lathe is that it's a third the weight (30lb vs. close to 90lbs). One questions though, I've read that American made lathes like this can't do metric threads. Is that true? Also what else is needed to at least get started on basic projects?

*****

You know, this is starting to remind me of back when I was seriously into photography (and didn't even think about RC or scale building) and I decided to upgrade (from my six Nikon bodies and two medium format cameras) to a 4x5" field camera...and several large format lenses...and then a large Gitzo tripod to hold that large camera...and then a full darkroom with negative washers, a Zone VI "cold light" 4x5" enlarger, selenium toning bath...

...ah, the insanity of "hobbies."

In an alternate timeline, this could be you (as it once was me):

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...d.php?p=484368

eddieC

My Feedback: (2)

Machine tools can be a whole other hobby. Abu, any chance you could hire out your machining needs, possibly find another hobbyist or small job shop? I agree a good lathe is invaluable, whereas you'll regret the cheap one every time you use it.

gabriel voisin

Sorry Abu,

but the Sherline is a toy and not worth the money.

I have a small Proxxon and a larger Güde lathe, also the Güde mill.

Both manufacturers are from Germany.

greetings Matz

MerlinV

You can cut metric threads with any lathe, so long as you have the right change gears.

But then, thread cutting is a whole art in itself.

I am fortunate that a builder mate of mine from our club has a fully stocked workshop with every metal working and wood working machin tool that money can buy. He is very generous with letting others use his facilities (in fact there is a regular meet at his shed every Wednesday night for people to do so).

Hugh

eddieC

My Feedback: (2)

Girl: "Who you gonna please with that tiny thing?"
Guy: "Me!"

The Proxxon is quite spendy, near $1,100 USD as I recall. Precision costs. Do they hold up?

Hydro Junkie

I would tend to disagree. For hobby use, the Sherline is just as viable as the lathes you named. They are infinately better than what 's available from HF and Grizzly, most of which needs to be reworked to bring them into the realm of precision needed for most machining tasks. If the Sherline mills and lathes are used within their capabilities, they are capable of very fine work. That being said, operator skill in using the equipment will be as much a factor as having high quality accurate equipment. BTW, how big of lathe do you need? The Sherline 4400 is a 3.5X17 machine that can be made to handle larger sized projects with available risers giving up to a 6" capability

If you need a lathe 17" between centers, here's what Sherline has in their website:
4400A LATHE PACKAGE (Metric 4410A)

INCLUDES:

• Model 4400 (4100) 3.5" x 17" lathe (with adjustable "zero" handwheels and rocker toolpost)

• P/N 1040 3.1" 3-jaw self-centering chuck
• P/N 1069 3/8" tailstock drill chuck w/ key, #0 Morse arbor, #1 Morse arbor with drawbolt
$800.00

(Save $55.00)

For 4400A Package with digital readout installed, specify P/N 4400A-DRO (inch) or 4410A-DRO (metric) $1095.00
For 4400A Package that is CNC-Ready with two stepper motor mounts installed, specify P/N 4400A-CNC (inch) or 4410A-CNC (metric) $980.00

If 8" is large enough, here you go:
4000A LATHE PACKAGE (Metric 4100A)

INCLUDES:

Model 4000 (4100) 3.5" x 8" lathe and standard accessories PLUS:

• 1041 2.5" 3-jaw self-centering chuck
• 1072 1/4" tailstock drill chuck w/ key, #0 Morse arbor, #1 Morse arbor with drawbolt
$675.00

(Save $45.00)

For 4000A Package with digital readout installed, specify P/N 4000A-DRO (inch) or 4100A-DRO (metric) $1000.00
For 4000A Package that is CNC-Ready with two stepper motor mounts installed, specify P/N 4000A-CNC (inch) or 4100A-CNC (metric) $855.00

Either way, these come standard:
All Sherline machines include the following items. Additional items included in the packages are listed in the table that follows.

LATHES: DC motor with electronic speed control, instruction manual, faceplate, drive dog, tool post, 1/4" high speed steel pre-sharpened right-hand cutting tool, #1 Morse and #0 Morse dead centers, 4 hex adjustment keys, spindle bar

Something else to consider is that if you can't afford the 4400, you can buy the 4000 and later purchase the longer bed with cross slide to make a 4400 and effectively have both

gabriel voisin

@ Hydro Junkie,
No, it doesn't depends what you want to build, but how exactly you will work.

@Eddie:
http://www.proxxon.com/eng/

Hydro Junkie

Okay, you lost me on that one.

Thayer

Abu,

The first threads I cut with my Sherline 4400 (inch) lathe were two sets of metric threads for a camera-telescope adapter. Sure, I wish I had larger, heavier equipment, but in the meantime I have made a lot of fun stuff with my Sherline and A2Z tools.

Thayer