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  1. #1

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    1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout
    – 1/4 Scale Build Thread –

    Here we go! - I've decided to jump into the 1/4 scale venue, a brave new world for me!
    I'm going to need lots of help and advice along the way from all you much more experienced builders out there so please feel free to chime in at any time. This mount is a bit of a rare bird so perhaps a little history on it first and then I'll start by finding a suitable kitchen mixing pot for the cowl...

    The Moraine-Saulnier Type N was an early French monoplane scout (fighter) aircraft of the First World War. It appeared in limited production numbers with just 49 total aircraft produced and delivered and was quickly replaced by more advanced platforms of the time. The aircraft was in itself a great aerodynamic triumph of pre-war racing heritage – a design utilizing a circular faired fuselage, a conspicuously large air-deflecting nose spinner, and wing-warping instead of moving surface ailerons more common in other aircraft of the Great War.

    Wings were held well-forward in the design and mounted high up, even with the cockpit. External rib battens were used to hold the fabric to the wing ribs as opposed to rib-stitching. Landing gear was made up of two bicycle type wheels, also well forward. The pilot sat directly aft of the engine placement in an open-air cockpit with a clean look over the nose and under the wings, and nothing but a small windshield to deflect the oncoming airstream. Two metal pylons, one forward over the nose, the other behind the cockpit, protruding well beneath the fuselage allowed for the wire cable wing bracing and wing warping control cables. The distinct propeller spinner was the most notable part of the Type N's design as it lent the aircraft a streamlined design look well ahead of its time. A plane of very advanced design, in practice the aircraft was extremely fast and consequently proved to be a handful to fly and quite difficult to land. As such, it sacrificed tame handling qualities for speed. The wing-warping approach no doubt added to the operational dangers and it took a well-trained pilot to fly the machine for any length of time. A high landing speed resulting in frequent crashes added yet another element of danger for the pilot. Thus for 1915, the Moraine-Saulnier Type N’s flying characteristics apparently left much to be desired as they were said to be too difficult to fly for all but the most advanced pilots, in other words, they had a race horse in their hands so early on in the aerial war – although I suppose something similar could have be said of the nimble little Sopwith Camel of later war vintage!

    Raymond Saulnier and the brothers, Robert Morane and Leon Morane, began producing aircraft in France in 1913. The Type N originated as a pre-war racer following the well regarded Types G and H. The first prototype of the Type N had its public debut at the flying meeting held at Aspern, Vienna from June 21-28, 1914, where it was flown with moderate success by the famous French pilot Roland Garros. This type was an attempt to achieve the same performance like the contemporary Deperdussin monocoques, at that time the most advanced aircraft in the world, but with a much simpler construction. The design bore a family resemblance to the earlier Types G and H.

    The prototype was powered by an 80hp Gnome rotary engine and showed a rather peculiar distinctive feature in form of an enormous spinner leading to its future moniker – the Morane Bullet. Like many other aircraft of its time this type had no ailerons, lateral control was by wing warping. In 1914 the company began producing its Morane-Saulnier Type N. Guns and deflector plates were installed on Type N machines, and it was rated quite high as a fighter plane or β€˜scout’ by experienced pilots that could master its agile handling qualities. Overall the French used very few of these machines, reserving them for their best pilots in the various escadrilles (squadrons) as most others considered them somewhat of a handful to fly.
    In April 1915 a single Type N appeared at the front flown by Eugène Gilbert, this was either the same or a second prototype. Its armament consisted of a fixed forward-firing 8mm Hotchkiss gun, which fired unsynchronized through the propeller arc. To prevent damage, the air-screw was instead protected by two triangular steel deflector plates - a device pioneered by Roland Garros. Soon afterwards a small production series was ordered for the French Aviation Militaire under the designation Type Nm. In official papers this type was designated as MoS.6.C1, but all Morane-Saulnier types of this series were popularly known as "Monocoques", albeit they were not of monocoque construction.
    Perhaps the largest user of this type was the British Royal Flying Corps, which received 27 machines of this type in 1916. Here the machines were known as Morane "Bullets", their armament consisted of a single unsynchronized 7.7mm Lewis gun. The British equipped several squadrons with the Type N. RFC Type Ns were armed with stripped down Lewis guns and deflector plates. At a time when the synchronized guns of the early Fokkers were ruling the air over the Western Front, the forward firing Type N was tolerated, but never liked by its pilots. As the Fokkers were replaced with superior biplanes like the Halberstadt and Albatros, the RFC Type Ns were quickly withdrawn back to "Blighty" and used as training machines and squadron hacks well into the war.
    The Russians also received a number of Type N's in 1916 (another source quotes only one example) and one machine is known to have been under construction at the Dux works in Moscow in the same year, but was not completed. Total production of the Type N is believed to have been 49 machines. In 1916 there appeared a version with an 110hp Le Rhone engine under the designation Type I. It seems that this type was used operationally by the French only in one or two examples, but the British received at least four examples.
    The Russians used Morane Saulniers Type I, receiving them in some numbers (on April 1, 1917 there are reported eighteen machines of this type being in service with the only Russian user, the XIX Fighter Detachment - commanded by A.Kazakov - at Lutsk). Type Is which, while appearing similar to Type Ns, were powered by a 110 hp Le Rhone and had a synchronized Vickers gun. They also lacked the external rib battens used to hold the fabric to the wing ribs on the Type N. The Type I machines used conventional rib stitching and tape for this purpose and also had a wire, scalloped trailing edge on the wing. They were the last operational aircraft of this type and some of them even survived the October Revolution. Most common armament was one synchronized Lewis or Vickers gun with Alkan or Vickers-Challenger synchronizing gear.
    The last variant of the basic design was the Type V. This model also appeared in 1916 and had a much larger fuel capacity, which caused major redesign. It is doubtful whether any of those aircraft were used by the French or Russians, but the British ordered twelve machines. At first it was planned to equip them with a Cadroy-Cordonnier mechanical bullet deflector instead of a synchronizing gear, but in fact most aircraft were delivered with a synchronized Vickers gun.
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  2. #2

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Morane Saulnier Type N specifications and a few photos...
    - second photo after the specs chart shows a MS Type I with scalloped wire trailing edge on wing, but the roundels look great!
    Does anyone recognise the manufacturers label on the propellor?
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  3. #3

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    I would love to see one of these built. I dont know much about the history but love the unique designs of the Morane Saulnier airplanes. I am in the middle of finishing my 1/6 scale type AI.
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    Ultra Sport Brotherhood #114
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  4. #4

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Dasquirrelisme - nice job on your AI! Looks like you are scratch building it too, plans/kit or your own design? The high wing AIs have a nice appeal and I believe they were the mainstay of the early French escadrilles were they not? What colour scheme are you going to use, it appears light bluish-silver?
    Cheers,
    Brian

  5. #5
    geezeraviation's Avatar
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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Interesting subject, it will be fun watching you approach the challenges that are presented by it. Subscribed
    Happy landings, Doc Hou Tx
    The second rule of modeling is there is no such thing as an insignificant savings in weight

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Thanks Brian.. It is being scratch built from old Ziroli plans. My first scratch build that I have been working on for 3 years on and off but its getting closer to being done. I painted the blue covering olive drab and will be a simple color scheme.

    Are you building from plans? I have not seen very many type N's built but have seen a plan or 2 around but forget where. Looking foward to seeing one .
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  7. #7

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    almost looks like you could bash a Bristol M1 into one.
    Walt

    PS consider a gyro on the rudder. My M1 is a bear one the ground.
    WT in Illinois

  8. #8

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Have a look at this thread. It might give you some ideas.

    http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...080376&page=11

    Good luck with this - it's one of my favourites but I always got scared off by the wing warping.

    Martin

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Good to hear from you Doc, thanks!

    Dasquirrelisme - very nice, looking forward to seeing the finished product. You should check out: Les Casques de Cuir (The Leather Helmets) website from France, they have a flying MS-AI!
    I am designing plans as I go... working them up from 3-views and 3D Cad images. My own design and build - hope it works out for me[]

    Walt - The Brits acquired several MS-Ns early on in 1916, I wonder if one of their Bristol designers sort of 'borrowed' from the design and added ailerons to alleviate the wing warping issues...lol... did they bash a MS-N into A Bristol?
    Incidently, both were nicknamed 'Bullets' for their shape. As for tail draggers - I love them and am quite used to their ground handling. Will just have to see how it goes. I have never used gyros before.

  10. #10

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    I would really like to make an aluminum cowl for the MS-N so first I need to find a suitable aluminum-steel-alloy pot or mixing bowl at the local grocery store. Hopefully I’ll find one bang on for ΒΌ scale or at least very close to scale.

    Scale drawings indicate the cowl has a radius of 500mm so then a diameter of 1meter or 39.37 inches. At ΒΌ scale then I need a pot with a diameter of 25 cm or 9.8 inches. I found a mixing bowl with the right curvature to match the side profile of the cowl/plane and that is more important than having one at exactly quarter scale. When cut it has a diameter of 23.5 cm so that means the actual scale of my model will be 1:4.26

    For references I have a couple of decent 3-views, several photos, and have lucked out in that Les Casques de Cuir (The Leather Helmets) http://www.lescasquesdecuir.com/n-projet.php in France is recreating/rebuilding a full size Morane Saulnier Type N. They have partnered with Memorial Flight and also receive help from Dassault Systemes. The goal of their project is to reconstruct a fully operational Morans Saulnier Type N plane, currently non existant anywhere in the world. There remains only a few photos and some plans that have managed to survive through time. Their basis for this reconstruction consists of the original plans of the Morane-Saulnier N and other similar Morane-Saulnier aircraft of the same period. UInfortunately the few original plans in their possession were not held β€˜fair’ or totally accurate, and many of the parts were missing or incomplete in the extant plans. Their solution is to create a digital model of the aircraft in order to validate the feasibility of the project and finally to produce a full size operational aircraft. I will rely on their expertise and the many 3D CAD views they exhibit on their website.

    Photos: 1-the side profile of the Morane Saulnier Type N from cad drawings by the Casques de Cuir (Leather Helmets) site in France.
    2-3-mixing bowl lid on the drill press being cut with a dremel metal cut off wheel
    4-5 Finished cowl front and rear with mounting plate
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  11. #11

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Well, history does go both ways. My current project is a Morane Saulnier MS 502. It's a MS built Fieseler Storch with a Salmson 9 cylinder round motor. Ought to cause some talk amidst all the long nosed ARFs
    Walt
    WT in Illinois

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Nice Walt - a Fieseler Storch with a radial up front! I too like to show up with something a little different at the flying field.

    Thanks Martin - I've trolled through this thread by Sperry. He did an excellent job of it! This is Peter Rake's design for the MS-N and comes in at about 64"wingspan, I was seriously considering this particular model as you can get a good quality lazer cut short kit from Manzano Lazer in the States. It deviates somewhat from scale and uses a flat bottomed airfoil that is also too thick so this was a major drawback for me.

    For my build it's: Go big and go all the way or go home - so I will stay true to scale outline, and especially want an undercambered airfoil at or very close to scale thickness. I have to agree that the wing warping mehtod has 'scared me off' for some time too. I was considering a Fokker Eindecker for this project as well but there are tons of them and many with ailerons instead of wing warping. Once I saw the streamlined Morane Saulnier Type N though there was no going back, I was hooked. Seeing Sperry prove Peter Rake's design has inspired me to give it a go.

    Still deciding on a finish for it (British or French) but I think I will go with French colours and probably that of Jean Navare - the 1st official Frech Ace of the war.

  13. #13
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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
    For my build it's: Go big and go all the way or go home...
    Just one wing???!!! The "cowl" looks great though!

  14. #14

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    ORIGINAL: abufletcher Just one wing???!!!

    - How did I know you were going to open with that!
    I think you know the Flying Fox oh too well! But notice my friend an Eindecker it is not! Do you think it is okay to post my build here as a legitimate world war one subject?...

    Glad you've joined in.

  15. #15

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    The integrity of this model hinges on being able to design wings that: are structurally sound so as to handle the aerodynamic loads and stresses of flight, flexible enough to allow a suitable amount of wing warping for lateral control, and as scale like as possible to preserve the thin undercambered airfoil. First step is then to design a structurally strong, flexible wing, build it and test it to make sure it warps without exerting too much torque on the servos. (Note to Don - one wing with a thin airfoil, carbon fiber, etc is quite enough for my limited design & building skills. If it works then maybe we'll see about a joint 1/4 scale LVG project with two thin wings!)

    I scaled up a basic thin undercambered rib profile from the 3 views and side profiles. I’ll mainly rely on the Casques de Cuir side profile. There are less than 10 ribs for each wing so I will use basswood for rib strength. Ribs were cut out of 1/8” basswood on the bandsaw, drilled to accept a bolt and then stacked, bolted together, and sanded on my belt and oscillating sanders. I used two MDF rib templates to sandwich the basswood ribs. Trailing edge strips were cut to shape from poplar on my tablesaw, marked for rib locations, and a slot/groove cut half way through at each position to lock in the thin trailing end of the rib. A leading edge radius was sanded into the front of each rib to accept the 1/8” hollow carbon fiber leading edge. The main spar is a 5/16” diameter hollow carbon fiber rod while the rear spar is a hollow rectangular carbon fiber rod. Holes were drilled into each rib to accept the carbon fiber spars. This is my first time working with carbon fiber rods, I am using them to provide both strength and flexibility for the wing warping of the thin airfoil shaped wings – I hope it works.

    The wing was laid up over the plans, aligned, pinned in place, and glued up with thick and thin CA and wood glue. With the leading edge pinned down, the trailing edge of the outermost rib was raised 3cm giving a 2.5o washout to the wing panel. There is no diehedral to these wings and they have a very thin leading edge which I understand can lead to a sudden stall at slow speed (unlike a wing with a thicj leading edge which apparently stalls more gradually) so I thought it wise to build in a little washout to help with stability and reduce tip stalling at slow landing speeds. I also hope the washout will alleviate adverse yaw in turns when using the wingwarping system.

    Balsa box spars were built up over the front carbon fiber spar to strengthen it and make it look more scale like. Thin black string was used to simulate the internal bracing wires.

    Next, cap strips to be added, wing tip installed and then the big test to see if the wing is structurally sound yet flexible enough for wing warping without to much torque on the servos…

    Photos 1-2-3 Ribs: profile, stacked and rough cut, sanded to profile
    Photos 4-5-6 Wings: rib & spar layup, washout built in , carbon fiber box spar detail, Wing bracing wires

    More to come soon,
    Cheers,
    Brian
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  16. #16
    geezeraviation's Avatar
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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    I may be wrong but on a warping wing I think washout is a rather moot point. You should be able to rig it in. Your flying and landing wires are what is going to provide structural integrity, the wing needs to have an inherent flexibility to warp. All your mounting points both at the wing and the rigging poles are what need to be very functional and secure. I think you're doing just fine with it and it should make a fine flying machine. The choice of bass for the ribs seems like a good one.
    Doc
    Happy landings, Doc Hou Tx
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  17. #17

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    it should make a fine flying machine
    - thanks Doc, I sure hope so.
    From what littlel I've read and less that I know about aerodynamics I'm worried about a nasy tip stall and spin at slow speeds - landing, with an airfoil that has a very thin leading edge. Washout is designed to alleviate at least some of this. You are right in that washout can be rigged in with the wires but I want as little static stress on them as possible so they can handle all the dynamic loads they will encounter in flight. As you say, the mounting hard points are critical and I am playing around with some ideas which I will address later. First though I will check out the structural integrity and wing warping shortly - results will be posted later today...standby.
    Cheers,
    Brian

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Wing Warping test results are in...[sm=72_72.gif]
    It works! - I almost think I know what I am doing[&:]

    Rib Caps of 1/16 x 1/4” basswood were CA’d to the tops and undersides of each rib. A wider cap strip was added over the two innermost ribs at the wing root for strength. Tip spar extension was made from a ¼”dowel plug and faired balsa that plugs into the carbon fiber main spar. Wing tip was formed in three sections, laminated basswood for the tight curve at the leading edge, and two sections of 1/8” dowel, warped to match the rib profile. Once the scale wing tip was in place, rib #10 was glued in place and capped. A few little details left to add to the wing and then final sanding but for now it’s time for the big test – Does the wing have structural integrity and yet enough flexibility for wing warping?

    The wing root was secured to the bench by a simple jig and some string was tied off to the rear spar in scale position for the warping mechanism. Other end of string was attached to a hand held scale which was held in the proper location where the fuselage pylons would be located to measure how much force it takes to warp the wing. I’m assuming I’ll need no more than one inch of deflection in the wing tips. Warping the wing to a maximum deflection up or down of 1Β½ inches the scale reads 1.25 lbs or 250grams. It is really quite easy to warp the wing from its neutral position, especially if only deflected by Β½ - 1 inch so I think a regular servo or certainly a high torque servo should be able to handle this.

    I hoping some of you reading this can help me out to determine just what servo/servo torque I’ll need with this wingwarp setup – any suggestions?

    The wing is actually very structurally sound and does not bend or warp on its own when held by the spars at the root, of course it will be a different story when the covering is applied but then again the bracing wired will be functional so it should be okay. Using basswood for the ribs and cap strips has helped and the carbon fiber spars in this thin airfoil wing have certainly proven themselves here for both strength and flexibility.

    This design experiment has proven to be a success – the wing has solid structural integrity and yet is flexible enough to permit the required amount of wing warping. I am amazed at how light weight the wing panel is for its size, it has an all up weight of just 8.2 oz., so both wings together will be just slightly over a pound in weight.

    Now that I know this wing design works I can go ahead and proceed with the build!

    Photos 1-2 Wing rib cap strips root & tip
    Photos 3-4-5 Wing rib and tip spar, wing tip oblique view, wing tip top view
    Photos 6-7 Wing warping test setup, Handheld weigh scale showing 650g or 1.25 lbs. at max deflection/warping of wings

    Cheers,
    Brian
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  19. #19

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    I'd go with a large 1/4 scale servo with 120+oz torque. It will only be about 1 oz. more than a smaller servo and you won't have to worry.

    The next thing is to cover it and see how that will twist. My guess is that you will need quite a bit more than with it uncovered. I'd also try to get as much warp as you can.

    Watching eagerly,

    Martin

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Looking good!!!
    Ultra Sport Brotherhood #114
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    geezeraviation's Avatar
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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    There are a lot od standard size servos that have VERY high torque. Be sure to use one with metal gears. I use a HiTech HS 985 MG for the rudder on a 1/3 scale model, it produces 172 oz of torque at 6v. There are more powerful than that as well.
    Doc
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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Thanks guys for the high torque servo help. Looks like I will need something with 120+ oz/inch torque, metal gears. I will build the second wing, cover both and retest the 'warpability' of the covered wings, then make a final decision on servo.

    The wings with their sixteen bracing & warping cables must be easily assembled/disassembled at the field. Easily is the operative word here so I've devised a simple method for the wing warping wires and their brackets to mount to the spars. A 4-40 or 2-56 bolt will secure the bracket to the spar. This way the cable mount is scale in appearance and I will not have to re-rig the cable tension every time I want to fly. See attached diagram.

    Cheers,
    Brian
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    geezeraviation's Avatar
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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    I wouldnt make any holes in the spars. Carbon tubes are incredibly strong till you violate the structure then they split and fray and become useless crap. My 2 cents but I really feel you need to find a way that doesnt require holes in the spars. Call the people at ACP and talk to them and get an expert opinion but dont drill holes in your spars till you check it out real well.
    Doc
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    The second rule of modeling is there is no such thing as an insignificant savings in weight

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    I have to agree with Doc. A wooden spar can be pierced this way as you can splice plywood on the front and rear faces to regain the local strength, but carbon is going to be more complicated. Perhaps you can add "half tubes" to the front and rear faces, and bind them to the spar, but I'd be nervous without considerable testing/experience.

    Martin

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    RE: 1/4 scale Morane Saulnier Type N French Scout

    Martin & Doc - thanks for that info on carbon fiber tubes, darn, figured it couldn't be easy.
    I'd though a little about this beforehand and though of inserting a dowel plug into the carbon rod. The dowel plug would extend past the ribs on either side and thin CA would wick in to glue it securely inside the carbon rod. The outside of the carbon rod could also be bound with cord either side of the drill hole to prevent fraying

    - thoughts gentlemen...
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