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1/6th Scale HE-111

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Old 10-31-2012, 07:17 PM
  #51
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

I always check relative lines as well as actual numbers....both can be misleading at times. Look at these side by side comparisons of the 3-view you're using and your latest image. Notice both the height of the wingtips relative to the top of the fuselage and also the level of the wingtips relative to the stabilizer. Something's off here...and by more than 1/2 a degree.
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Old 10-31-2012, 08:17 PM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

thats the old drawing remember back when ppl said ethe fuse was off and I was posted the fuse profile views? I went back through the ref provided and got the matching front view to those side views. everyone was saying the winf dihedral looked too great so I stuck with the one that matched the new loft. thats why

I will post new overlays tomorrow which will show it better

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Old 10-31-2012, 08:22 PM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Heres the drawing notice how much lower the wing is in this 3 view from the other. also in my loft the wing is too low so it has to come up a little too thats why Ineed to reloft it. thats the biggest pain abt 3d cad is the time consuming setup but the nice thing is everyone can easily visualize it and notice flaws so can be adjusted so when the plans are done ppl know its is spot on to the documentation


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Old 10-31-2012, 08:45 PM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

What I was noticing was the relative height of the wingtips to the stabilizer in the 3-view vs. your preliminary lofts.
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Old 10-31-2012, 09:48 PM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

well in today's loft of the stab I have the neg  angle of attack where the first loft it was  at zero.

and it matches exactly the 3 view you posted. the first time i just lofted it to get all the lofting ribs the proper size and to research more if the real plane actually had a neg incidence and it wasnt just the artists drawing

I'm calling it a nite Ill post the stab pic tomorrow


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Old 10-31-2012, 10:28 PM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

You're doing a great job on a difficult model, Joe. Just keep pluggin' away! [8D]

***

Note: The red lines in superimposed on the 3-view (your chosen 3-view) have nothing to do with stab or wing incidence. They show the relative height of the top of the stab relative to the tips of the wings. To me, this suggests that there's something wrong with either the amount of dihedral on your most recent wing drawing...or something else is definitely out of position. The wingtips are very clearly ABOVE the level of the stab by a considerable amount when viewed from the front.
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Old 10-31-2012, 11:47 PM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Undoubtedly, the He-111 had awkward wings but still doable. From the information I have the outer wing section has a dihedral of 7 degrees. However I have have not been succesful as to whether the wing had negative incidence or not. Bear in mind that if the paper was slightly angled when scanned then you would end up with wrong lines. That is a point which I am sure you already have at the back of your mind.
Moreover, I note that you should also have the BLACK CROSS Volume 4 which is entirely on the HE-111 which I did not see in your list. Its a good book. This one:
http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/biblio/s...oss/black4.jpg

Like previous other cad work undertaken this is, again, amazing work.... keep it up!

Reuben
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:32 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Half a degree! I agree with Don that it looked off, but I am amazed that the human eye can detect such a small difference so easily.

I agree with Arup regarding the wing. Is there a negative angle of incidence all the way out? Or is the gulled trailing edge "twisting" the wing root to match the fuselage?

I am enjoying watching your design process.

Martin
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Old 11-01-2012, 04:59 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

martin the wing has a washout of neg at the root and outer nacelle section then goes from neg to zero at the tip

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Old 11-01-2012, 05:59 AM
  #60
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Nieuport nut
Half a degree! I agree with Don that it looked off, but I am amazed that the human eye can detect such a small difference so easily.
The difference I was pointing out, between height at the wingtips and the height of the stabilizer is not a matter of half a degree. To me this seems immediately apparent. I'm not sure where the problem lies. Is the wing too low? Is there not enough dihedral on the outboard section of the wings. Is the stab too high or too low? Is it a combination of small amounts of several or all of these? You don't have to have eagle eyes to see that in the 3-view, the stab is roughly the same level as the wing root and that the wing tips are much above the stab in the 3-view.

And as I said all of this has nothing to do with wing or stab incidences.

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I am enjoying watching your design process.
Ditto.

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:06 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Do you see what I mean? There's at least a couple of degrees difference between the dihedral angle on the 3-view and the dihedral angle on your front view.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:22 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

I think it might be possible that you are both right on the three view in what you are basing what you see. No matter how many docs or possible access to the real aircraft the artist has; the 3 view is drawn to what the artist sees as important. Most of these aircraft dont even exist anymore and if they do they are in a crowded museum. 3 views tend to be drawn as if every inch is perpendicular to the viewer; anyone who has walked around a real airplane know if you change your position even if perpendicular the perspective changes. They are drawn like blueprints, but once the third dimension is removed the line can be distorted. I must build to 3 views well because all my fuselages are bent like a banana.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:27 AM
  #63
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Yes a couple posts back Imentioned one the reasons was the wing was too low and the angle of attack off slightly


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ORIGINAL: abufletcher


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Nieuport nut
Half a degree! I agree with Don that it looked off, but I am amazed that the human eye can detect such a small difference so easily.
The difference I was pointing out, between height at the wingtips and the height of the stabilizer is not a matter of half a degree. To me this seems immediately apparent. I'm not sure where the problem lies. Is the wing too low? Is there not enough dihedral on the outboard section of the wings. Is the stab too high or too low? Is it a combination of small amounts of several or all of these? You don't have to have eagle eyes to see that in the 3-view, the stab is roughly the same level as the wing root and that the wing tips are much above the stab in the 3-view.

And as I said all of this has nothing to do with wing or stab incidences.

Quote:
I am enjoying watching your design process.
Ditto.

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Old 11-01-2012, 06:31 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

I don't see how this could be a matter of interpretation. These are the 3-views that Joe has chosen to use as the basis for his model (and they look like a good choice). In both the side and front views of this 3-view the wingtips are considerably higher than the stabilizer (as shown in my image). That's readily apparent to the unaided eye. But in the view Joe posted today ("yesterday" in the US), the wingtips are at the same level as the stabilizer. This isn't just perspective; it's a fundamental design feature of the H111 and I'm sure Joe wants it to be accurate.

As to whether there could be artist errors in the 3-view, that of course is entirely possible. But I suspect Joe will find this relationship between wingtip and stab is roughly consistent from one 3-view to the next in all of his extensive research materials.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:35 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

morning peeps i got the cad fired up so will be posting a couple shots. Here is the redone tail feathers and Iam now happy to say they match the documentation



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Old 11-01-2012, 06:39 AM
  #66
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Quote:
ORIGINAL: ProfLooney
Yes a couple posts back I mentioned one the reasons was the wing was too low and the angle of attack off slightly
Just raising the wing relative to the fuselage isn't going to do it. If by "angle of attack" you mean the viewing angle of the fuselage (from the front) then I suppose that might explain what I'm seeing. But to me "angle of attack" is just another term for "wing incidence" and that wouldn't explain it.

The following crude diagram shows the effect of simply raising the wing so that the wingtips are at the height shown on the 3-view.
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Old 11-01-2012, 06:44 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Here is the wing profile the red is the lofts root rib the blue is the 3 view outlines. Will do a front view next



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Old 11-01-2012, 07:05 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Here is a couple front views one thing Inoticed is how they dont really match that well with the side and top views for thicknessess of stuff like the wings and tail feathers they are much skinnier in this view than in the top and profile view.

however my wingtips are slightly lower than they should be






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Old 11-01-2012, 08:58 AM
  #69
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Ok I started Relofting the Wing and adjusting the rib locations and the Dihedral which still wasnt correct.

As you can see here I have the root rib properly lined up with my 3 view outlines now











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Old 11-01-2012, 09:31 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

I now have the center of the dihedral drawn up now I need to take the top view and the dihedral and create a 3D guide from it


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Old 11-01-2012, 09:44 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Oh BTW if anyone is interested. My next design project after the HE-111 will be the ME-410 Grasshopper. I have the preliminary plans all drawn up and even framed one up using foam cores and tail feathers so I know everything fits, however now that I am fairly competent with Solidworks I will do it in solidworks to make sure everything is perfect.

and yes it will also be 1/6th scale.
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Old 11-01-2012, 10:57 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

Ok preliminary Loft gives me a kink in the wing. So I know the tip is in proper place and the first 2 ribs are fine it is just the transitional rib out of place. Now everything was located on my original guide so I now know I need to adjust my guide.








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Old 11-01-2012, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

got the wing fixed I next have to work on the trailing edge but you can see my wing and wingtip is now in the proper place and running at a nice smooth flow


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Old 11-01-2012, 11:51 PM
  #74
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

You are getting there!
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Old 11-02-2012, 08:51 AM
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Default RE: 1/6th Scale HE-111

nother day nother headache lol luckily so far its all good.

Well Igot the rear guide in place and ready to loft the wing and see where we are.


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