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  1. #51
    abufletcher's Avatar
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: gabriel voisin


    Don 90% of the german colors and the markings were applied with a 6 cm wide brush.
    You can say it's the German standard .... ''DIN''.
    Never were painted with a brush for an artist, .....that's total nonsense.
    Just because it makes a guy, it must not be right .... only on the outskirts.
    Depending on the company, the markings were covered with a stencil and then painted over.

    greetings

    So all the crosses on the Albatros aircraft were applied with a stencil? How do did the Albatros workers make a stencil as wide as a (full-scale) wing? Or do you mean that they MASKED the borders of the cross with tape?

  2. #52
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Just currious, since these national markings had a formula for being laid out with a large compass, such that you could have a template to trace a pencil line on the white or fabric. Why do you want to free hand the curves?

    I will admit the formula that I have seen is for a very late war cross.

    http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/mhae_cross/index.html
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  3. #53

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    PMerritt, what ratio of Floetrol do you use?

    My last couple of Warbirds I used this mix:
    - 2/3 Beur Latex house paint
    - 1/3 clear winshield washer fluid
    - add about an ounce of Floetrol.
    Stir it all up and I use a automobile detail spray gun at about 80 PSI

    r,
    Mike.
    R, Mike P.
    Flying 1/3 BUSA Pup, 1/4 Proctor N-28, scratch 1/4 D-VII
    Building 1/3 Sopwith Tripehound for the Mid Atlantic Dawn (MAD) Patrol: Oct 1-5
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  4. #54
    abufletcher's Avatar
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: MajorTomski
    Just currious, since these national markings had a formula for being laid out with a large compass, such that you could have a template to trace a pencil line on the white or fabric. Why do you want to free hand the curves?
    I'd be marking the edges with a pencil using a paper template cut out of heavy photo paper. What I'm considering is free-hand PAINTING the crosses instead of masking them off (for either spraying or hand-painting). It was my impression that the German crosses were in fact "free-hand painted" on the originals. But perhaps that's not the case. The shapes for the earlier pattee crosses are all over the place. Have a look though the CI data file and you'll be hard pressed to find any two exactly the same. As I mentioned above there seemed to be three general stages, where the "feet" (which is the etymological origins of the word "pattee") were extremely wide (as one some early EIIIs), then medium wide (as on many CIs), and finally fairly narrow as on the DrI, before being abolished in favor of the straight cross.

    Back to the topic of paint types, at the (well stocked) local hardware shop, I also found small cans of "synthetic resin" paint. What is this and what's it used for?

  5. #55

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    I would bet the synthetic is a Rustolium like product. It has to do with what makes the pigment. The old Earl Shieb $99 paint jobs were done with synthetic enamel. Pay more for an upgrade. Stencils and brushes. Its the tail end of the Industrial Revolution; everything is about production and efficiency. It was probably a 2 man job where an apprentice held the stencil and pushed it down for the edge and then the other guy would do the outline; then once the outline was done both would fill it in.

  6. #56

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?


    ORIGINAL: abufletcher

    ORIGINAL: gabriel voisin


    Don 90% of the german colors and the markings were applied with a 6 cm wide brush.
    You can say it's the German standard .... ''DIN''.
    Never were painted with a brush for an artist, .....that's total nonsense.
    Just because it makes a guy, it must not be right .... only on the outskirts.
    Depending on the company, the markings were covered with a stencil and then painted over.

    greetings

    So all the crosses on the Albatros aircraft were applied with a stencil? How do did the Albatros workers make a stencil as wide as a (full-scale) wing? Or do you mean that they MASKED the borders of the cross with tape?
    Don, it was just a mask. (deutsch = Schablonen)
    This was placed on the components and then painted the edges.
    Please have a look, it's a picture of the Albatros company.
    Step by step.
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  7. #57
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: gabriel voisin



    Don 90% of theΒ*german colorsΒ*and the markings were applied with a 6 cm wide brush.
    You can say it's theΒ*German standard .... ''DIN''.
    Never were painted with a brush for an artist, .....that's total nonsense.
    Just because it makes a guy, it must not be right .... only on the outskirts.
    Depending on the company, the markings were covered with a stencil and then painted over.

    greetings

    I would tend to agree the brushes of nowadays would have to be far superior to way back in the day. But then again back in the day I would imagine that all the brushes were made with some sort of real hair. wether it be horse,squirrel,fox sable. On another note one might have said they could have been artist brushe's, after all the one's doing the painting's might consider themselfs artist'
    I Ain\'\'\'\'\'\'\'\'t Buildin No TuG Boats

  8. #58
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?


    ORIGINAL: abufletcher

    I found some paint labeled as enamel at the hardware store...it says to thin with ''paint thinner'' (not the lacquer thinner) so that resolves that question. It looks promising. Is your 80in eindecker the SR Batteries kit? If so, from what I've heard and seen, the sport scale lines are virtually identical to the BUSA eindecker but it's a very well made kit. Everyone who has built one describes it as a joy to build.

    My first scale model (about 8 years ago) was an Fokker EIII which, while it started life as a BUSA Eindecker 40, ended up almost entirely scratch-built (except for the wing, which I cut in half and mounted on a tube).

    *****

    As you can see I had a little Photoshop fun with the first and third photos
    I wish it were the SR but I just went down to see what I could find. I had did a trade with a friend and and he had said that it was not a B USA and that it should behave better then the B USA On the plans it says its Designed and Drawn by Bob Peru Balsa Prod Eng. 122 Jansen Ave. Iselin NJ I have no Idea of it it was before B USA or if a total different design. I love your builds I have been observing them from the bleachers for quite some time. Mine was all framed up when I got it. One of these days I will get to finishing it off. Im not going to bash it into a more scale plane as I see you do some pretty scale builds. Just going to add a few details to it along the way.
    I Ain\'\'\'\'\'\'\'\'t Buildin No TuG Boats

  9. #59
    abufletcher's Avatar
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Matz, your photo shows the white-outlined cross on the rudder of a DIII...and I believe you that a stencil was used for that. But it is still difficult to imagine a stencil large enough for the large crosses on the wings. How do you make and use a stencil several feet across?

    In terms of the shape of the cross, as I've said, there was a lot of variation over time and between manufacturers. Below are just a few of the many styles found in the datafile photos. Note that in the third photo the two wings have different crosses, which shows that one wing panel had been replaced...and that the shape of the crosses on the wing are different from the ones on the fuselage and rudder.
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  10. #60

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Don, I have the company film about the painting of the crosses.
    I had a couple of scenes copied from it, but I do not think where it is.
    The stencils are made ​​of thin sheet metal.
    They had no time to sketch out great works of art.
    But be careful, it was exactly prescribed how great must have been the cross and the withe edge, ... and so on.

  11. #61
    abufletcher's Avatar
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: gabriel voisin
    The stencils are made ​​of thin sheet metal.
    Interesting!

    But be careful, it was exactly prescribed how great must have been the cross and the withe edge, ... and so on.
    Very strict indeed...at least for the narrow style cross (as show in MajorTomski's post above):

    http://www.wwi-models.org/misc/mhae_cross/index.html

    But I've never seen an similar description of the earlier/wider crosses. And as you can see in the photos I posted there were many different styles of pattee crosses used.



  12. #62
    abufletcher's Avatar
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Matz, your post reminded me of the Albatros factory video you posted earlier! And right around the 3:20 mark you can see EXACTLY how the crosses were done on the wings. First, you see the guy in a white jacket lifting a cross shaped pattern onto the wing. Then, (at around 3:40) you see the bottom of the wing with the outline of the cross. This proves pretty conclusively that the process went like this: 1) a positive pattern in the shape of the cross was positioned on the wing, 2) the outline was drawn around the outside of the pattern, 3) the edges were painted (as in the second video frame grab below), and 4) the cross was filled in by hand, though I suppose it could have been masked and painted.

    There may be a bit of a translation problem involved. I see that the German word "Schablone" can mean either "pattern" or "stencil." However, in English, a "pattern" is usually a "positive" shape that is traced on the outside. In contrast, with a "stencil" the part to be painted has been cut out, e.g. it is a "negative" shape. So in the video, the worker is clearly lifting a "pattern" for the cross and not a "stencil." However, in German you could definitely call it a "Schablone."

    In German, Schablone = pattern and Schablone = stencil. But in English, pattern β‰* stencil

    http://www.criticalpast.com/video/65...ing-assemblies

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  13. #63
    abufletcher's Avatar
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    BTW, I'm willing to believe that the Albatros factory workers were skilled enough that they could have outlined the pattern WITH A PAINT BRUSH resulting in the outline seen in the second video still. But they were certainly using a fine brush to make this outline.

  14. #64

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    I agree with Abu
    A fine outline was made and then filled in with larger brushes. Most certainly not rocket science. Here is a few pic's of Achim's triplane bottom wing cross. Also notice there was no white field beneath the bottom crosses, but natural unbleached linen. He seems to try and do things by the book. Besides a brush line will look more scale than a tape line. Unless ofcourse you shake like hell doing it!
    TK
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  15. #65

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    I don't know the problem.
    I told you that it was painted with a stencil.

  16. #66
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    On the website that Matz showed us, Still 210 shows the pattern for the cross very clearly. By the way, it looks like the tips have been clipped off the pattern, which makes sense.

    http://www.criticalpast.com/products...5675051130/210

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Gabreil
    Am I to understand that they placed a stencil on the aircraft and then outlined the cross, lifted the stencil and then painted inside using the same size brush for the entire process? Well yes this seems to be logical of course. All I mentioned was they hand painted the outline and then filled in. And I would agree that it seems the process you discibe would be the easiest and quickest way.
    Thanks
    TK

  18. #68
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    TK, as I just explained to Matz (in German) in a PM, I think this is all a German-English translation problem. As I explained in my post above, the German word "Schablone" may be translated as either "pattern" or "stencil." But in English, a "pattern" is a "positive" shape that's traced on the outside. On a "stencil" the "negative" areas to be painted are cut out.

    So NO, the crosses on the wings were quite obviously not made with a stencil, but rather a pattern (going by the English usages of these terms). However, the white-outlined crosses on some Albatros aircraft may have involved both a pattern and a stencil (or two stencils, first a white one and then a smaller black one).

    Confusing? Language is like that.
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  19. #69
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    I used Coverite 21st Century Cream Flat Finish film the tower number is COVQ0230
    Takeoffs are optional but landings are manditory!!

  20. #70
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    So after all the discussion, here's the result on my "test wing" with the "bamboo" habotai silk applied over Koverall with PolyC to mimic German clear doped (and varnished) linen. For the cross, I first cut out a pattern from photo paper and taped that lightly in place on the wing. Then, using a black sharpie-type permanent marker, I drew the outlines. Next, using the free-hand techniques discussed above, I went around the inside of one arm with an 1/8" inch flat-end brush, which flattens out to about 1/4" inch. After doing the three sides of one arm, I filled in the middle with a 1/2" flat brush (overlapping the paint from the 1/8" brush). Next, I use a small pointed brush to fill in the tips of the arm. I worked on one arm at a time so that the paint in each arm would be drying at the same rate.

    The key as pointed out, is definitely in getting the enamel paint thinned to the right consistency. I added enough paint thinner to to allow the paint to run "quickly" down the side of a paper cup. This allows it to flow smoothly off the brush, which results in a much smoother, straighter line and fewer visible brush strokes. All in all, a pretty impressive result, with no need for masking...and authentic to boot.

    Next, I'm going to try filling in the empty areas with white enamel. If that doesn't work, I'll go back to the plan of spraying on a background square of latex and painting the enamel cross on top of that.
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  21. #71
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Nice work, well done!
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  22. #72

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Hello Don,
    that's not quite right.
    In German there are no differences for pattern and stencil, that's all "Schablonen".
    The crosses were a little bit differently painted as you describe it.
    In the movie you can see only a fraction.
    In the next time, I will upload some of the pictures and documents that I have about the painting of the crosses and the other signs.
    TKFokker has quite right, I will suerch the documents and show you.

    Matz

  23. #73
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: gabriel voisin
    In German there are no differences for pattern and stencil, that's all ''Schablonen''.
    That's what I said. But in English there IS a difference.

    The crosses were a little bit differently painted as you describe it.
    In the movie you can see only a fraction.
    In the next time, I will upload some of the pictures and documents that I have about the painting of the crosses and the other signs.
    TKFokker has quite right, I will suerch the documents and show you.
    TK agrees with ME. You agree with TK. Therefore, you must agree with me! But, seriously, I would love to see whatever additional documents or pictures you have about painting markings. You've been very helpful.

  24. #74

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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Now I have found the things but I had to look at all of my 1800 photos
    I show you some of it, but then you can believe it or not.
    The photos are very unique and rare therefore I've marked.
    Then you can believe what I said to you, or also not.
    I will show you the photos of the Albatros workshop but I will not publish the original documents and the description.

    By the way,
    The signs were never paintedhow on the photos of the Fokker Team......sorry is it so.


    1. With thepattern will the outlines of the cross marked with chalk.
    2. the cross will painted black, ( only about)
    3. Now comes the big template on it and the frame will painted white.
    4. ready

    Matz

  25. #75
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    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Matz, thank you for taking the time to look through all your photos! I really appreciate it!


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