Register

If this is your first visit, please click the Sign Up now button to begin the process of creating your account so you can begin posting on our forums! The Sign Up process will only take up about a minute of two of your time.

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 84

  1. #1
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    I'm wondering whether anyone has any nice "tricks" for painting those curvy pattee crosses...perhaps something similar to the trick for hand-painting roundels. If at all possible, I'd like to avoid using masks...at least until I've tried my hand at hand-painting.

    I've printed out some practice sheets:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Fd91379.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	34.0 KB 
ID:	1820206  

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    littleton, CO
    Posts
    197
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    1) First hand paint the white boxes on the wings.
    2) Trace out cross on paper and cut out with xacto knife
    3) Place paper cross template on wing centered in white box and trace outline with pencil.
    4) Get the most expensive black electrical tape and mask around outline. The tape will stretch and form making good curves. Hand paint the black crosses then lift tape and hand paint white or black with fine brush to fix bleed thru arreas. Comes out good with none of that messy spray painting.
    5) I use latex.


  3. #3
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    I'll keep the electrical tape tip in mind, but I guess I should have said "free-hand painting" the crosses. The technique for free-handing roundels was to paint with a natural curving sweep of the hand. And this turns out to be fairly easy because we're painting the inside of a "convex" curve. But on the patee cross, we're stuck with painting the inside of a concave curve...or to think of it another way, painting along the "outside" of a concave line. And that's tougher.

    Some initial practice indicates that one set of the curved lines are easier to paint starting from the middle and curving out to the tip. The other set of lines is easier starting at the tip and curving into the middle. The diagram below shows what's easier for me as a left-hander. So I could do the edges with a thin brush, and then fill in the rest with a wider brush. The tips will take some care.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Db84995.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	38.9 KB 
ID:	1820213  

  4. #4
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: valleyk
    4)...then lift tape and hand paint white or black with fine brush to fix bleed thru arreas.
    A nice trick for avoiding (or limiting) paint bleeding under the edge is to very lightly seal the edge of the tape or mask with a clear paint (clearcoat or PolyC). Just the very lightest amount with a small brush to fill any imperceptible gaps. Then paint the marking.

    5) I use latex.
    I'll give our local Japanese variety of latex (house paint) a try. It's best if it "flows" nicely.

  5. #5
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    As with the roundels, the line along the inside border of the cross is best done in a single pass with the brush fairly heavy with paint. On a test piece I used a 1/8" flat-tipped brush for this. Maybe even a narrower brush would work. Most of this line will be painted over when filling in the cross at which point you don't have to worry much about going over the outline. The corners were done with a fine-tipped brush and the cross filled in with a 1/2" brush.

    For the time being, ignore the brush strokes (paint was too thick) and the warping (since this test was done on ordinary paper). Using the stroke directions shown above, even on this first attempt, the outline came out very sharp (with just one or two very small goof-ups). For the wings and rudder this shouldn't be too hard to do. It might be more difficult to free-hand the crosses on the fuselage. That's where a mask might come in handy.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jh15225.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	232.0 KB 
ID:	1820224  

  6. #6
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    BTW, here's the aircraft I'm modeling (more or less with some artistic license). This is the only photo I've seen of this aircraft so all I can do is assume that the crosses on the wings and the rudder were the same (similar) to the one of the side. Patee crosses were far from stardard, but there seems to have been three basic variations. The earliest version (think, early EIIIs) was very narrow in the center and very wide at the end, then what seems to be a second version (maybe ca. 1915?) as seen in this photo. And then there was a later (last?) version with with the narrower arms (and a wider center) as seen on some DrIs. I also get the feeling this shape was associated with some naval aircraft. The datafile CI drawings show this style.

    But the variety of patee crosses seen in period photos is truly astounding.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Jh15739.jpg 
Views:	13 
Size:	105.2 KB 
ID:	1820228  

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Memphis, TN
    Posts
    3,825
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Your free hand look good. You can handle it. If you end up masking, i like Scotch tape cut to shape; has a good edge.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Kingston, ON, CANADA
    Posts
    521
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Looks great, Don. The larger the scale, the easier this sort of thing becomes. Small errors when building 1/12 scale are much more significant than at 1/3. I was pleasantly surprised at how well my hand painted markings turned out on my Aviatik. However, I would have been a little disappointed with the brush marks at a smaller scale.

    Martin

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Taylorsville, KY
    Posts
    2,223
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    FWIW Our paint doesn't 'scale' properly and the strokes will be too prominent. When you look at photos of the fellas doing the painting their brushes don't look to be very wide and they use stencils in some cases. Field repairs seem to have been done 'on the fly'. Spray them in place then go over them with a brush using a flat clear or somesuch. Any errors won't be as prominent. I like to use the blue pinstriping vinyl tape from auto paint shops but don't know if they're available in Japan.

  10. #10
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: ARUP
    FWIW Our paint doesn't 'scale' properly and the strokes will be too prominent.
    I know what you mean. But what I'm hoping is that if the paint is the right consistency it will flow such that there are no brush marks.

  11. #11
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    From what I've seen (for example in historical photos and from replica builders), the black crosses (and roundels) weren't always painted ON TOP of underlying paint. Rather the background color was left "empty" in these areas and then the marking was "filled in." That might be a little hard at smaller scales, but might be worth attempting on a wing where the markings are clearly visible through the bottom fabric, as on the CI.

  12. #12

    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Wylie, TX
    Posts
    443
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    It's not cheap but the best tape for clean paint lines comes from your local auto color supply such as English Color or find one that supplies the auto paint and body shops with their paints/tints.  They sell auto masking which I use a lot in my industry and it is of a quality that I haven't found.  It will form to most curves and leaves a very clean line even with air brushing.   You can also find some very nice brushes for pin stripping or touch p from them also. 
    Intelligence is similar to a dress code. Dont attend a black tie affair wearing cutoffs and a tank top. Know your facts

  13. #13

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Chesapeake , VA
    Posts
    674
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Abu, either you got it or you don't.
    Ok how about this based on post 3 picture.
    Make two frisket paper masks that
    -1 does the blue strokes to the corner and then 90 degrees all the way to the end.
    -2 make a red mask along that edge and 90 degree to end of cross.
    Now with your pencil marks of the entire cross, lay down the blue edge and paint most of the cross section.
    Do this 3 more times working your way around the cross.
    Now take the red edge mask. Line it up and finish the cross. Do same 3 more times and you are done.
    Hope makes sense as im on a cell and unable to power point it.
    R, mike
    R, Mike P.
    Flying 1/3 BUSA Pup, 1/4 Proctor N-28, scratch 1/4 D-VII
    Building 1/3 Sopwith Tripehound for the Mid Atlantic Dawn (MAD) Patrol: Oct 1-5
    http://www.flytrc.com
    Spitfire Brotherhood #8
    Balsa USA Brotherhood #44

  14. #14

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Chesapeake , VA
    Posts
    674
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Being right handed i would also make all my paint strokes in a left to right sweeping motion as it feels easier. So sometimes the red mask might be first, then the blue.
    R, Mike P.
    Flying 1/3 BUSA Pup, 1/4 Proctor N-28, scratch 1/4 D-VII
    Building 1/3 Sopwith Tripehound for the Mid Atlantic Dawn (MAD) Patrol: Oct 1-5
    http://www.flytrc.com
    Spitfire Brotherhood #8
    Balsa USA Brotherhood #44

  15. #15
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    ORIGINAL: FireBee

    Being right handed i would also make all my paint strokes in a left to right sweeping motion as it feels easier. So sometimes the red mask might be first, then the blue.
    My point was that with these sweeping motions no masks are needed at all! It can all be done entirely free-hand (no tape, no nothing) with very clean, sharp results...and I don't have a particularly steady hand. It's technique rather than skill.

    I suppose it all boils down to preference. I definitely prefer the "work" of using a free-hand technique over the "work" of using masks (of either tape or frisket). Both have their pros and cons.

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Taylorsville, KY
    Posts
    2,223
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?


    ORIGINAL: abufletcher

    ORIGINAL: ARUP
    FWIW Our paint doesn't 'scale' properly and the strokes will be too prominent.
    I know what you mean. But what I'm hoping is that if the paint is the right consistency it will flow such that there are no brush marks.
    Right! Brush strokes won't show, much. That's why it would be easier to mask and spray! I understand what you are doing, though! (I think) Your CD Albi is looking good, BTW!

  17. #17
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Does anyone use "windshield wiper fluid" to make latex flow better?

  18. #18
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Here's Achim Engels at work. Right or wrong, the result is still impressive.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Rx60311.jpg 
Views:	5 
Size:	79.7 KB 
ID:	1820416   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Xu62633.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	68.3 KB 
ID:	1820417   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Tr50111.jpg 
Views:	8 
Size:	26.2 KB 
ID:	1820414   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Hc92256.jpg 
Views:	9 
Size:	34.9 KB 
ID:	1820415  

  19. #19
    willey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Waterford/Erie, PA
    Posts
    499
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Hello abufletcher, if I were you I would NOT touch a water based paint for this type of application, (although the windsheild washer fluid does help the flow) but if you want to hand brush it freehand, you will want a enamal base paint.

    If you want the best paint for hand lettering it's called "One Shot" lettering enamel, when I letter on a hot day I always add a few drops of kerosene to my paint, this slows the drying time and the paint flows out like its been sprayed, but takes longer to dry though. I suppose you could use this same process with any enamel paint even Testors Model Masters, if you try/test do not use much!!. for an example... if you where to say do this with a whole bottle of testors you would only use a VERY small drop of kerosene. One Shot is a slow drying paint anyways for your application you would probably not need kero, its just so you know.

    really depends on how big your artwork is and how you go about it. Me I would probably make a pattern out of a manila folder (yellowish job folder) since there are more than one, tape it on your surface (all 4 sides) just enough to hold it dont need much - then trace it with a pencil (lightly) use a hard one like an "H" it leaves a very nice clean line, you will be covering it anyways. Then remove and then tape all 4 side with either fine line of even 3m GREEN masking tape it works almost as good as fine line, make sure you squeegee the edge very well where the paint is going to be. NOW... your ready to become a hand lettering sign painter... LOL!!

    Brushes... one way to go is using a "liner brush" it has longer hairs then a standard brush, its used for outlining and scroll work, plus get your self a wider brush for filling in. Longer hairs carries more paint, - longer + wider (Quill) spreads paint out nicely.

    the TUBE offers a ton of hand lettering and pinstripping videos, watch some and you will find out what I am talking about, Steve Kafka is a good place to start, check it out.

    just practice a little and you will find it is not that hard to do. First tip I can give when you are pushing that brush... watch were you are going... not were the brush is at.

    I'm 30yr. sign painter but most of the stuff I do on my models I cut stencils and spray with an airbrush... but I understand where your coming from, they defiantly weren't perfect on the real thing.

    Good luck and have fun, willey

    check out my gallery the A-4, P47 & the 51 are all paint no stickee's
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Wu60867.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	23.4 KB 
ID:	1820423   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Pk29836.jpg 
Views:	7 
Size:	16.0 KB 
ID:	1820424   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Va72948.jpg 
Views:	11 
Size:	19.4 KB 
ID:	1820425   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Xr47124.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	7.9 KB 
ID:	1820426   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Vg53444.jpg 
Views:	12 
Size:	4.0 KB 
ID:	1820427  

    Warbirds & Classics

  20. #20
    willey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Waterford/Erie, PA
    Posts
    499
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Steve Kafka's lettering demo

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0eLk6vOUY


    Here is a good example of how the tape is used for the horizontals and what the brush looks like in action

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkDeN...eature=related
    Warbirds & Classics

  21. #21
    unclecrash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    White Lake, MI
    Posts
    1,519
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Im with willey, Im no painter like him but have used lettering paint to do some graphic's on a small nitro boat also get some decent brushes for the job. You will be able to load the brush up with more paint and run a better line and further without stopping.
    I Ain\'\'\'\'\'\'\'\'t Buildin No TuG Boats

  22. #22
    unclecrash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    White Lake, MI
    Posts
    1,519
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Here is a couple pics of the boat I did. This was my first time doing 24k goldleaf and lettering. Wish I was 20 years younger when I didn't have the shakes. Hope you don't mind me posting the pics. I have an Eindecker that Im going to do with all the crosses but will probably do them with tape and airbrush
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Om33078.jpg 
Views:	4 
Size:	45.6 KB 
ID:	1820433   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	Cx75222.jpg 
Views:	6 
Size:	40.2 KB 
ID:	1820434  
    I Ain\'\'\'\'\'\'\'\'t Buildin No TuG Boats

  23. #23
    willey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Waterford/Erie, PA
    Posts
    499
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Yes having the right tools makes it much easier for doing the job, kinda like comparing flying a three channel Senior-eta and fly an aerobatic routine than fly it with a competition pattern ship.
    Warbirds & Classics

  24. #24
    willey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Waterford/Erie, PA
    Posts
    499
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?


    ORIGINAL: unclecrash

    Here is a couple pics of the boat I did. This was my first time doing 24k goldleaf and lettering. Wish I was 20 years younger when I didn't have the shakes. Hope you don't mind me posting the pics. I have an Eindecker that Im going to do with all the crosses but will probably do them with tape and airbrush
    that looks pretty cool!!
    Warbirds & Classics

  25. #25
    abufletcher's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Zentsuji, JAPAN
    Posts
    14,401
    Gallery
    My Gallery
    Models
    My Models
    Ratings
    My Feedback

    RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?

    Thanks very much for all that "insider" knowledge! I'll give enamel a try...and maybe at some point in the future pick up some that specialty paint. The idea of slowing it down with kerosene is also interesting (if necessary). Who knows, maybe I will in the end end up using a mask, but I really enjoy learning about these other possible techniques...particularly one's used on the original aircraft. Somewhere I have a photo of a woman hand-painting markings on a full-scale WWII warbird and it's absolutely flawless.

    The long-haired brushes highlight an important point: You're actually dragging the end of the brush that lays down the line.


Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
All times are GMT -6. The time now is 03:50 PM.

SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1 ©2011, Crawlability, Inc.