Eindecker EIII
02-20-2013, 03:43 PM
#251
RE: Eindecker EIII
Paul
I enjoyed the visit to your shop and especially all the kibitzing
that I got in while you were getting your Eindecker ready for it's maiden flight.
Rhonda snapped a few pictures of the trip out to the field, the set up and some flight shots........heck, there's even some video.(can't get the video uploaded)
I realize that our presence (Larry and me) probably sped up your time table considerably and I also know the weather wasn't ideal. But (there's that dredded but again) but the show did indeed go on!
The temps were in the 50s, but with the wind in the teens and gusting well into the 25 mph range and overcast (no solar warmth) it felt much cooler. We were all bundled up except for Paul - his anticipation level was high and with his adrenalin flowing he didn't need "no stinkin' coat!"
Here are some pictures........
I enjoyed the visit to your shop and especially all the kibitzing
that I got in while you were getting your Eindecker ready for it's maiden flight.Rhonda snapped a few pictures of the trip out to the field, the set up and some flight shots........heck, there's even some video.(can't get the video uploaded)
I realize that our presence (Larry and me) probably sped up your time table considerably and I also know the weather wasn't ideal. But (there's that dredded but again) but the show did indeed go on!
The temps were in the 50s, but with the wind in the teens and gusting well into the 25 mph range and overcast (no solar warmth) it felt much cooler. We were all bundled up except for Paul - his anticipation level was high and with his adrenalin flowing he didn't need "no stinkin' coat!"
Here are some pictures........
02-20-2013, 06:47 PM
#253
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RE: Eindecker EIII
Rich,
This is the original prototype that I was framing up that Paul bought instead of a cut kit.
The wing is plenty strong but there is not much resistance to twisting due to it's size so flying wires will be required.[
]
The wing span is 135" with a 23 1/2" wing cord.
I believe he covered it with Coverall.
It was windy with some strong gusts.
I am coming up with a system for the flying wires so they are easy to connect and disconnect. Plus it's not an Eindecker without flying wires.
Larry
This is the original prototype that I was framing up that Paul bought instead of a cut kit.
The wing is plenty strong but there is not much resistance to twisting due to it's size so flying wires will be required.[
]The wing span is 135" with a 23 1/2" wing cord.
I believe he covered it with Coverall.
It was windy with some strong gusts.
I am coming up with a system for the flying wires so they are easy to connect and disconnect. Plus it's not an Eindecker without flying wires.
Larry
02-20-2013, 07:02 PM
#254
RE: Eindecker EIII
Hey Paul
Awesome Dude! You Guys sure build fast! I wish I could, I build like a turtle.......... SLOW. Anyway looks great. I do have one question, The dummy engine???? Who's, and where can I get one for my third scale GTM Fokker D-6. Is it a Ziroli?? Looks really nice.
Thanks
TK
Awesome Dude! You Guys sure build fast! I wish I could, I build like a turtle.......... SLOW. Anyway looks great. I do have one question, The dummy engine???? Who's, and where can I get one for my third scale GTM Fokker D-6. Is it a Ziroli?? Looks really nice.
Thanks
TK
02-20-2013, 09:05 PM
#255
RE: Eindecker EIII
You are all true modeling pioneers, building and flying very much in the spirit of the the early bird flyers. Well done and congratulations for getting the first one into the air...for for getting it back down.
02-21-2013, 04:33 AM
#256
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RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: TKFOKKER
Hey Paul
Awesome Dude! You Guys sure build fast! I wish I could, I build like a turtle.......... SLOW. Anyway looks great. I do have one question, The dummy engine???? Who's, and where can I get one for my third scale GTM Fokker D-6. Is it a Ziroli?? Looks really nice.
Thanks
TK
Hey Paul
Awesome Dude! You Guys sure build fast! I wish I could, I build like a turtle.......... SLOW. Anyway looks great. I do have one question, The dummy engine???? Who's, and where can I get one for my third scale GTM Fokker D-6. Is it a Ziroli?? Looks really nice.
Thanks
TK
The engine is a Ziroli,the new light weight version. It it much easier to "carve out" weight as needed than the previous ones
Mike Gross brought it down to Virginia as a super sweet door prize.............Thanks Mike!
HPA
02-21-2013, 03:11 PM
#258
RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: Horsepoweraviation
What plates?...................plates? ......................dinner plates?.....
HPA
Will post small update about the side cheeks Barry and I are attemping to.hammer,smash,bend,tweek,heat,twist,roll....hamm er some more...and Voilia! Beautiful side cheeks!
ORIGINAL: R/C Art
Thank you, you are too kind.
ORIGINAL: Teus
Still a joy to watch Art [8D]
Your plates leave with tomorrows mail.
Still a joy to watch Art [8D]
Your plates leave with tomorrows mail.
Thank you, you are too kind.
HPA
Will post small update about the side cheeks Barry and I are attemping to.hammer,smash,bend,tweek,heat,twist,roll....hamm er some more...and Voilia! Beautiful side cheeks!
Very nice quality Teus, thank you.
02-21-2013, 04:09 PM
#259
RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: Lucky Dog
Glad the flight was a success!
So, how'd it fly?
Glad the flight was a success!
So, how'd it fly?
I keep waiting for the pilot or the designer to chime in here.........but in their absence I will expand on the flight just a little bit.
First of all, we learned a great deal about the airplane and the design. At 3172 suare inches of wing area and 39.4 pounds ready to fly less fuel, it was very light on its wing.........so weight isn't a problem.
Secondly we learned (as previously stated by Larry) flying wires are going to be required for normal flying. I am a little dissappointed about this because I wanted a very quick to get ready for flight "plug & fly" type of model. But since everyone else was planning to add the flying wires, no one else was bummed out about that......soooooo, I will fit functional flying wires to my model. It won't add too much tothe assembly time and will add immensely to the appearance of the model! Wires are a very prominent feature of the Fokker Eindecker series.
And lastly, we discovered that the stab was
02-21-2013, 04:50 PM
#260
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RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: R/C Art
I keep waiting for the pilot or the designer to chime in here.........but in their absence I will expand on the flight just a little bit.
First of all, we learned a great deal about the airplane and the design. At 3172 suare inches of wing area and 39.4 pounds ready to fly less fuel, it was very light on its wing.........so weight isn't a problem.
Secondly we learned (as previously stated by Larry) flying wires are going to be required for normal flying. I am a little dissappointed about this because I wanted a very quick to get ready for flight ''plug & fly'' type of model. But since everyone else was planning to add the flying wires, no one else was bummed out about that......soooooo, I will fit functional flying wires to my model. It won't add too much tothe assembly time and will add immensely to the appearance of the model! Wires are a very prominent feature of the Fokker Eindecker series.
And lastly, we discovered that the stab was
ORIGINAL: Lucky Dog
Glad the flight was a success!
So, how'd it fly?
Glad the flight was a success!
So, how'd it fly?
I keep waiting for the pilot or the designer to chime in here.........but in their absence I will expand on the flight just a little bit.
First of all, we learned a great deal about the airplane and the design. At 3172 suare inches of wing area and 39.4 pounds ready to fly less fuel, it was very light on its wing.........so weight isn't a problem.
Secondly we learned (as previously stated by Larry) flying wires are going to be required for normal flying. I am a little dissappointed about this because I wanted a very quick to get ready for flight ''plug & fly'' type of model. But since everyone else was planning to add the flying wires, no one else was bummed out about that......soooooo, I will fit functional flying wires to my model. It won't add too much tothe assembly time and will add immensely to the appearance of the model! Wires are a very prominent feature of the Fokker Eindecker series.
And lastly, we discovered that the stab was
Don't keep us in suspence!
Chris923
02-21-2013, 05:15 PM
#261
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RE: Eindecker EIII
As Art was about to discuss the stab.
I designed the stab with 3/8" material for the spars with no sheeting top or bottom. Under flight loads the elevator was not very responsive and in checking it out on the ground with full up elevator
the stab was twisting which seemed to be negating the elevator response. The stab has a 39" span and there are no brace wires.
Remember the full scale had a flying tail so it would not be subject to this twisting effect.
On my new build I have sheeted the top and bottom of the stab and elevators and the stab is now rock solid. I have added 1/8"x1/4" cap strips where the ribs are to maintain
the scale look of the stab and elevators.
The rudder was very effective and will not need any changes.
On another note I fly my 1/3 scale Super Cub, which has the same airfoil, with differential on the ailerons. Lots of up aileron and very little down aileron.
The rudder is also mixed with the ailerons at 20% which helps the tail to track through turns much better.
With these adjustments and some further flight testing, on calmer days, it can be trimmed out to be a gentle flyer but also a responsive flyer that will be fun to fly.
Larry
I designed the stab with 3/8" material for the spars with no sheeting top or bottom. Under flight loads the elevator was not very responsive and in checking it out on the ground with full up elevator
the stab was twisting which seemed to be negating the elevator response. The stab has a 39" span and there are no brace wires.
Remember the full scale had a flying tail so it would not be subject to this twisting effect.
On my new build I have sheeted the top and bottom of the stab and elevators and the stab is now rock solid. I have added 1/8"x1/4" cap strips where the ribs are to maintain
the scale look of the stab and elevators.
The rudder was very effective and will not need any changes.
On another note I fly my 1/3 scale Super Cub, which has the same airfoil, with differential on the ailerons. Lots of up aileron and very little down aileron.
The rudder is also mixed with the ailerons at 20% which helps the tail to track through turns much better.
With these adjustments and some further flight testing, on calmer days, it can be trimmed out to be a gentle flyer but also a responsive flyer that will be fun to fly.
Larry
02-21-2013, 05:39 PM
#262
RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: R/C Art
I keep waiting for the pilot or the designer to chime in here.........but in their absence I will expand on the flight just a little bit.
First of all, we learned a great deal about the airplane and the design. At 3172 suare inches of wing area and 39.4 pounds ready to fly less fuel, it was very light on its wing.........so weight isn't a problem.
Secondly we learned (as previously stated by Larry) flying wires are going to be required for normal flying. I am a little dissappointed about this because I wanted a very quick to get ready for flight ''plug & fly'' type of model. But since everyone else was planning to add the flying wires, no one else was bummed out about that......soooooo, I will fit functional flying wires to my model. It won't add too much tothe assembly time and will add immensely to the appearance of the model! Wires are a very prominent feature of the Fokker Eindecker series.
And lastly, we discovered that the stab was
ORIGINAL: Lucky Dog
Glad the flight was a success!
So, how'd it fly?
Glad the flight was a success!
So, how'd it fly?
I keep waiting for the pilot or the designer to chime in here.........but in their absence I will expand on the flight just a little bit.
First of all, we learned a great deal about the airplane and the design. At 3172 suare inches of wing area and 39.4 pounds ready to fly less fuel, it was very light on its wing.........so weight isn't a problem.
Secondly we learned (as previously stated by Larry) flying wires are going to be required for normal flying. I am a little dissappointed about this because I wanted a very quick to get ready for flight ''plug & fly'' type of model. But since everyone else was planning to add the flying wires, no one else was bummed out about that......soooooo, I will fit functional flying wires to my model. It won't add too much tothe assembly time and will add immensely to the appearance of the model! Wires are a very prominent feature of the Fokker Eindecker series.
And lastly, we discovered that the stab was
Sorry about the delay, but I got a call I had to take.......
And we discovered that the stab was strong enough but not stiff enough.......as the elevator was pulled to the up position I gently pushed it back toward the neutral popsition and noticed that the front of the stab was twisting up.......we also discovered (the call was from Paul) that the stab incidence was at a positive 3 degrees. What we deduced was happening was this condition was causing a lot of drag and turbulance but not imparting much of a pitching action to the airframe - thus it was slow to gain altitude. Also Paul checked balance again back at the shop after the flight and the result was that it was tending toward a tail heavy condition.
The fix here is relocate the stab to a zero incidence reading and brace the stab to prohibit twisting.
The next test flight will indicate if these fixes were correct.
02-21-2013, 05:47 PM
#263
RE: Eindecker EIII
I will modify my airframe slightly to allow functional wing wires to be attached.
I will also modify my stab to Larry's recommendations or build a new one with these design perameters included reducing the overall weight of the current stab.
This is the fun part of designing/building and then test flying and then "tweaking" to get the best overall flight out of the model.
I am looking forward to getting mine airborn!
I will also modify my stab to Larry's recommendations or build a new one with these design perameters included reducing the overall weight of the current stab.
This is the fun part of designing/building and then test flying and then "tweaking" to get the best overall flight out of the model.
I am looking forward to getting mine airborn!
02-22-2013, 01:40 AM
#268
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RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: TKFOKKER
Where can we get the fokker id.plates???? For the cowls. 1/2 scale triplane?
Where can we get the fokker id.plates???? For the cowls. 1/2 scale triplane?
[link=http://www.flightlinegraphics.com/]HERE[/link] Tom,
Ask Nigel per Email about your needs. He can do rubdown as shown by Art, but he can aslo do real etching for 1/3rd and 1/2 scale plates. And you can choose your personal serial numbers fit to your choosen model
02-22-2013, 02:09 AM
#269
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RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: Tmoth4
You guys better watch Paul. He's liable to put a DA 150 in his!![X(]
You guys better watch Paul. He's liable to put a DA 150 in his!![X(]
Hey Jim ......
Lets get alittle more accurate on your above statement...........change the word from "liable" to "going".....[:-][:-][:-][:-]
HPA
02-22-2013, 05:28 AM
#270
RE: Eindecker EIII
Are you going to bring the stab to zero as related to the thrust line or as to the wing? Be better if you zero it to the wing, grab yer favorite inkadink meter and put a loooong bar on it. Get em at the Depot 1/8 X 1" alum bar makes great inkadink meter extender. Maybe building the stab using the core method would make it stiffer enough. Only half as much additional wood (in the back!) as sheeting both sides.
Something else to watch out for is when you put flying and landing wires on it is the foreward flying wire (front lower). If you make the gear with suspension and make a hard landing (God forbid!) and the wheel flexes upward and the flying wires maybe droop a bit, make sure the wires DO NOT get close enough to the wire for the tire to touch or grab the wire, it gets ugly fast from there.
Doc
Something else to watch out for is when you put flying and landing wires on it is the foreward flying wire (front lower). If you make the gear with suspension and make a hard landing (God forbid!) and the wheel flexes upward and the flying wires maybe droop a bit, make sure the wires DO NOT get close enough to the wire for the tire to touch or grab the wire, it gets ugly fast from there.
Doc
02-22-2013, 09:10 AM
#271
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RE: Eindecker EIII
One other flying wire comment.
My dad and I added functional flying wires to his BUSA Eindecker, G23 powered, a bitty litle thing compared to this but we learned something ill pass along. On the bench the planes wings were perfectly aligned in incidence to each other, checked using calibrated to each other Robart meters. On test flying day the plane flew MUCH differently, required a lot of aileron trim from the test flying we did without the wires. Turned out that the wires, under load were allowing a differential twist on the wings. We tighten the wires carefully again at home under simulated flight loads and that fixed the issue. I have not had this issue with other planes with flying wires but this was our first monoplane with wires.
Apologies if this is teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but ya never know.
Whit
02-22-2013, 09:21 AM
#272
RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: wphilb
Turned out that the wires, under load were allowing a differential twist on the wings. We tighten the wires carefully again at home under simulated flight loads and that fixed the issue.
Turned out that the wires, under load were allowing a differential twist on the wings. We tighten the wires carefully again at home under simulated flight loads and that fixed the issue.
02-22-2013, 11:03 AM
#273
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RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: Horsepoweraviation
Hey Jim ......
Lets get alittle more accurate on your above statement...........change the word from ''liable'' to ''going''.....[:-][:-][:-][:-]
HPA
ORIGINAL: Tmoth4
You guys better watch Paul. He's liable to put a DA 150 in his!![X(]
You guys better watch Paul. He's liable to put a DA 150 in his!![X(]
Hey Jim ......
Lets get alittle more accurate on your above statement...........change the word from ''liable'' to ''going''.....[:-][:-][:-][:-]
HPA
Well, that should get that stab a'shakin' !! [X(]
02-22-2013, 11:27 AM
#274
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RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: R/C Art
These plates, Paul !
Very nice quality Teus, thank you.
ORIGINAL: Horsepoweraviation
What plates?...................plates? ......................dinner plates?.....
HPA
Will post small update about the side cheeks Barry and I are attemping to.hammer,smash,bend,tweek,heat,twist,roll....hamm er some more...and Voilia! Beautiful side cheeks!
ORIGINAL: R/C Art
Thank you, you are too kind.
ORIGINAL: Teus
Still a joy to watch Art [8D]
Your plates leave with tomorrows mail.
Still a joy to watch Art [8D]
Your plates leave with tomorrows mail.
Thank you, you are too kind.
HPA
Will post small update about the side cheeks Barry and I are attemping to.hammer,smash,bend,tweek,heat,twist,roll....hamm er some more...and Voilia! Beautiful side cheeks!
Very nice quality Teus, thank you.
AAAAAAAAAAAAUUUUUUGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You lucky![:@][:@]
02-22-2013, 11:49 AM
#275
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RE: Eindecker EIII
ORIGINAL: Teus
Still a joy to watch Art [8D]
Your plates leave with tomorrows mail.
Still a joy to watch Art [8D]
Your plates leave with tomorrows mail.
I'm sorry Teus...I can't let this go....[&:][&:]
"joy to watch Art"............Can I get a WTH!?
I'm trying to figure out your other hobbies.....Going to the zoo and watching sloths, maybe the fishing channel, "box turtle" racing......
As Art once said.............you are truely too kind............
HPA