Slope Pilot

Hi, I am about to build my Balsa USA Eindecker 40 and I am wondering how I can do some simple things to make it more scale. I mean things like "full flying" control surfaces, scale tailskid, etc. For the cockpit I will order some things from Proctor Enterprises like instrument cases, I will also have my Dad make me a scale fuel filler cap and other things. That should have MOST of it covered. Thanks for any help!

abufletcher

First, it's important to accept that very little ("almost nothing") about the BUSA eindecker is "scale" in the sense of really being like the Fokker EIII. It is strictly a "fun scale" rendition that's easy to build and fun to fly.

That having been said, there are several things that you might do to develop your WWI building skills and to give the model a bit more of a scale feel. Have a look at the following website for some ideas about basic mods. At the very least, I'd replace the "slab" sides with sides made from longerons and uprights/diagonals and install a pull-pull control system on the rudder and stabilizer.

http://www.angelfire.com/indie/aerostuff/eindeckero.htm

In the photo below you can see my EIII above a BUSA eindecker. I bought the BUSA eindecker kit, built the wing and then scratch-built the rest of the model based on scale drawings.

geezeraviation

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It's too clean Don, dirty it up. lol
Doc

abufletcher

After 10 years of hanging on the ceiling it's plenty dirty! But seriously, at the time I was building this I was aware that many of the original EIII's had all sorts of assorted dirt and oil stains but just didn't have any idea how to simulate that on a model. BTW, I'll be bringing this model back with me to Japan and hope to get it flying again soon. And if that project goes well, I might think about building a set of scale, warping wings, since when I built the original model, I had that in mind and made allowances for it.

Note: In comparing the model with the 1/4 scale Proctor plans, I discovered that the BUSA eindecker isn't really 1/6 scale (which isn't really surprising since it's not really scale anyway). The wingspan is 60" while a 1/6 scale EIII would be 66 inches. So I guess that makes it more like 1/7 "scale" or thereabouts...which explains why the 1/6 scale WB Spandau didn't quite fit where it was supposed to fit.

KitBuilder

You could changet things that are obvious and visible.. the main gear... turn the stab/elevator into a fully flying verions and fix the tailwheel up. That would go a long way. Addiing wing warping... or easier make strip ailerons with the groove facing downard.. hinging at the top. This would better hide the aileraons on the wing giving an illusion of wing twisting. Or better still use film for your hinges. Run the top covering back to the stripi aileron in one piece and apply a second piece underneath.

The eindecker is on my list and I have several ideas on how to bash in some wiing warping along with other mods to take the stock kit to a more scale like appearance and function.

abufletcher

Why bother "bashing" the BUSA kit (which would amount to almost entirely redesigning it)? Instead just start with the much more scale, true 1/6 scale, 66" span Aerodrome EIII kit (with barndoor ailerons on a more scale airfoil). This is designed with electric in mind, but it shouldn't take much work to beef it up a bit for glow power.

http://www.aerodromerc.com/

gabriel voisin

Don,
It doesn't matter, because both models are too far from the original.
No kit on the market offers the original EIII airfoil.

@slope Pilot,
I think the best way is to make it better with a few simple details and not to build a new model.
Make a good finish and with a few small details you'll get a reasonable fun model.

Greeting Matz

Eindecker_pilot

I'd keep it fun scale and be careful about mods that will end up adding too much weight or affecting balance. I'll 2nd the suggestion to build the fuselage sides with longerons and diagonals instead of the slab walls. I wish I'd done that on my Eindecker 90. Covering it with solartex and using scale fittings will dress it up nicely.

Greg

abufletcher

What's "scale" is relative, but there's no doubt whatsoever that the AerodromeRC kit is much, much, MUCH more scale than the BUSA kit. The BUSA kit might even be described as "cartoon-scale" in comparison.

Of course, being more scale could also mean that the AerodromeRC model might be a bit harder to fly, though by all accounts it's a good flier. I'm with Greg (and Matz) though, that since you already have the BUSA kit, you should just go ahead and build it (quickly) with minimal design changes, for example, replacing the slab sides. No matter what you do, there's no real way to turn this sow's ear into a silk purse. So just have fun with it.

abufletcher

But, then, maybe you could shoot for something like this, modeling a full-scale "fun-scale" EIII:

Slope Pilot

Here's one.
www.proctor-enterprises.com/products/museum/eindecker/eindecker.htm
My Dad's friend Jay has most all the Proctor kits, and some Glenn Torrance kits, including the Eindecker. He also has the BUSA .90 size converted to electric, it makes me wonder why he evan bothered with the BUSA kit. The only things I want are: full flying rudder, full flying elevator, scale tailskid, and dummy engine.

abufletcher

The BUSA eindeckers are hugely popular and probably account for 90% of all the "eindeckers" you're ever likely to see at the flying field. And not a one of them is scale...and no one seems to care. The reason? It's fun to fly (about the same as an Ugly Stik) and easy-peasy to build with just one wing. You could probably frame the entire stock kit in two days. For a lot of guys it'll be the only "WWI" model they ever build.

Let's take those one at a time. 1) The rudder: Do you want it to be a scale size and shape? Have you thought about how you will attach a full-flying rudder? 2) The full-flying elevator: Be aware that having a full-flying elevator where the LE goes down when the TE goes up, makes the model "twitchier" on the elevator. Also do you want the elevator to be a scale size? The BUSA stab/elevator is at least 10% if not 20% larger. 3) Scale tailskid (and support): Bear in mind that the bottom of the full-flying rudder is attached to the skid support. You'll probably have to do some custom silver soldering here. 4) The dummy engine: The BUSA cowl is completely out of scale. It's too long and too narrow. So if you're going to use a scale dummy you're going to have to find a more scale cowl. The long, narrow ABS cowl is a big part of what gives the BUSA eindecker its unscale "torpedo" appearance that's so immediately recognizable. And if you do decide to go with a scale-depth cowl, you'll need to built a recess into the firewall to allow proper engine placement. Anyway, look around for aluminum pots you can cut down. Also remember that, as I mentioned above, the BUSA eindecker is really closer to 1/7 scale, so keep that in mind as you're making a dummy.

TomCrump

The BUSA Eindecker, or any BUSA WWI kit, is a good place to startdeveloping scale building skills. I'd say, go ahead and have at it !

As you learn more, you can decide how much accuracy you will want to put into your creations.

If it were me, I'd add details that are easily noticed, and that will set your model apart from others. Use a fabric covering, such as Solartex, not a plastic film.

Go for it, and have some fun !!!

By the way, my brother lives "near" you, in Paradise. He learned to fly, just this year.

gabriel voisin

@slope Pilot, that's nothing to do with scale.
The model has only a few elements like the original EIII, but not the original ribs.
Have you ever seen a Fokker EIII in original?
You talking about full flying rudder, full flying elevatorbut you know these things only from the pictures.
The BUSA Fokker needs a damping Tail.

See what Don has written to you.

greetings

Slope Pilot

Yes, I have seen a real Eindecker airfoil.

Slope Pilot

The rudder: Yes, scale size and shape would be great, I have thought about it a little bit on how to attach it.
The elavator: I don't mind it being more twitchy, I am more used to twitchy fast reacting planes; it should be scale shape and at least look right.
The tailskid: I guess it does not have to be completley scale, but look more scale than the stock.
I guess the "torpedo" like cowl is alright.

KitBuilder

I'm finishing up the BUSA 1/6 N17 with fully flying rudder on pull pull. Not a big deal to build out. I read the bottom of the FF rudder is attached to the skid support. From the pic above I cannot tell if the pivot line is vertical or leaning forwward a bit. Either way it seems one would solder two small brass tubes vertically in two places. The skid touch point and the rear of fuse where it meets. Piano wire attached to rudder (L at top) slips in tubes with wheel collars..one below fuse (out of sight) and other top of skid, recessed effectively hidden. I was looking at the aerodrome versions today- EZ and undercambered wing version.

abufletcher

It's an interesting point that modelers rarely talk about a "full-flying" rudder on the Nieuport or DrI or the Bristol 504...but of course it was. Full-flying just means the rudder wasn't attached to a vertical stabilizer fin. I suppose the reason the full-flying rudder on the EIII seems special is that the fuselage doesn't have a traditional vertical tail post so we can't just use ordinary hinges.

The first photo shows the admittedly crude skid assemble on my EIII. What you can't see is that there's a sort of "loop" formed by the two skid legs and that a music wire passes through that. The music wire then passes through a tube built into the rudder. For the top pivot I used a carved down tail-wheel mounting bracket. The second photos shows another modeler's "cleaner" version.

Lucky Dog

My Feedback: (1)

Hi Slope Pilot,
A few years back I kitbashed a .90 BUSA EIII into an EIV. Stick and logeron fuse, full flying rudder and elevator plus a few other mods. While yes, it's only fun scale, it did add a considerable amout to the "personality" and illusion of being more scale like. It flies just fine (I did add a lot of expo to the elevator). It's still flying today....well, it will be as soon as I repair some damage from a "dumb thumber" last year.

The project was alot of fun, and I learned a lot (which is a big part of it for me).

Here's a link to my build thread if you're interested. http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/fl...okker-eiv.html

If I can help in any way, please let me know.

johnp793

My Feedback: (30)

A wonderful idea- bashing a BUSA kit into something that looks a bit more like the real thing. I did it, and am eager to repair it and get it back into the air- dumb thumbs!!

First thing to do- read up on the Eindecker, so you have some idea what it really looked like, and what some of the details are. There's a signal book out on it, I believe. On the web, there's a full size recreation at the San Diego Air Museum http://www.sandiegoairandspace.org/ that was superbly documented in a DVD put out by Achim Engels. I wasn't able to find a link to that DVD, but would encourage you to look for it on the web.

Modifying the fuselage, or changing the tail feathers are great ideas, but there are some simpler things that can be done that would give it a more authentic look. Change the landing gear to look more like the real one. The larger BUSA Eindecker has suggestions in their manual about how to do that; it just requires carefully bending some wire and doiing some good wrapping and soldering.

Add the wires. Get turnbuckles and a small pulley from Proctor, and, having figured out what the cabanes (?) look like, make something that looks reasonable. You could even omit the turnbuckles- just put on some small pieces of brass tubing to simulate them where you attach them to the wings. The guy who built my plane had installed brass tubes through the wings at the four (on each side) locations that the wires would attach to the wings. That made it easy to make hard points for attachment; if you are starting from scratch, you could simply put wood blocks under the covering at the right places, and use wood screws for the attachments.

Think about putting aluminum tape on the cowl and front of the fuselage to simulate the Eindecker's brushed aluminum. SR Batteries has a good descriptoin of how to do it and sells some of the supplies you'd need.

Good luck, have fun, and don't worry about getting it "right". Jus do it, and then fly it!!

abufletcher

The original EIII did NOT have brushed/machined aluminum...and the description on the SR Batteries site is completely inaccurate. It's just one more example of the "modeler's fantasy eindecker" having almost entirely eclipsed the real EIII.

Don't look too hard at documentation of the original. You might not like what you find.

johnp793

My Feedback: (30)

Some comments in response to your assertion that Eindecker cowls weren't brushed or machined. First, noting the picture you use by your signature, I suspect that your knowledge of Eindeckers may be superior to mine. However, the impression that Eindeckers have brushed cowls is pretty widespread. For instance, http://www.theaerodrome.com/forum/ca...ned-cowls.html which also cites WW I Aero. Second, photos of the original, hanging in the Imperial British War Museum (I believe), as well as the one at San Diego, and others floating around the Internet, certainly appear to have cowls and cheeks prepared that way.

Perhaps more important, the modeler who started this thread clearly isn't attempting to build a competitive scale plane. But he might start in that direction by picking out a prototype, of which he can get a photograph, and then finish his model to represent that prototype. If the best way of representing that prototype is by brushing aluminum, perhaps by following SR Batteries approach, or perhaps by buying pre- brushed aluminum from Walt Moucha, then he has a justifiable approach.

abufletcher

I'm talking about those neat little rows of circles that modelers are so fond of. There is not a single photograph in existence that shows this on any eindecker...no matter what reference source you use. There was, however, some random scrolling. There's still considerable debate as to whether this was done for aesthetic purposes or to relieve stress in the metal or both. This random pattern is clearly visible in many old photos.

BTW, this random squiggle was used on the San Diego replica you mention (which I've seen in person and also have the eBook from Engels). However, the squiggles are a bit large and don't match period photos. Modelers can make the squiggles using an electric eraser, if they have one around, or just a bit of eraser material chocked into the end of a dremel tool.

As far as this being only "sport scale" so it being OK to use the circles, well, I just can't understand that kind of thinking. It's actually a LOT of work to do the "English turning" and it's actually much LESS difficult to do the random squiggles. So why on earth would anyone making even a sport scale model include a feature that is not only NOT SCALE but is actually MORE DIFFICULT than doing things in a scale manner??? The only reasoning would have to be "I like the way it looks." And in that case, all bets are off and the modeler might as well finish the model in day-glo orange (if that's what the modeler thinks looks good).

But if all the EIII modeler cares about is getting whistles from the guys at the field, then by all means do those little circles.

abufletcher

The point is probably moot since SlopePilot has said he's going to use the kit's ABS cowl. He could go to the effort of trying to cover the cowl in FliteMetal / aluminum tape, but that's really difficult with all the curves.

johnp793

My Feedback: (30)

OK- so our disagreement isn't great- it's about the details of the brushing- the shape of the individual elements and the way that they are arranged overall. Do you have a good source for what that looks like? While Slope Pilot may or may not want to do any simulation of those markings, I may, as my own BUSA Eindecker, the larger version, gave me the opportunity to do that when it tried valiantly but was unable to continue flying at the low throttle level I had given it (far away in a very noisy environment). So I have a little rebuilding to do, and had considered putting some brushed aluminum on the cowl and cheeks.