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Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

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Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Old 02-02-2005, 10:40 PM
  #51  
BobH
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

The book has drawings of several Pfalz aircraft. The Fuse drawings have some cross sections showing the shape. The wings are drawn showing the rib stations but I don't see a rib profile showing the exact shape. Lots of B&W pictures with some color drawings in the back of the book. Lots of Info in the book.. You'll enjoy it..
Old 02-05-2005, 12:07 PM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Don, here are the missing 3 pics/ beats me why email doesn't work.
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Old 02-05-2005, 03:53 PM
  #53  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Trev, thanks for posting these. After looking carefully at the various drawings and photos, two aerodynamic features caught my attention:

1. The tailplane appears to have an inveted airfoil shape, i.e. flat on the top and slightly curved on the bottom.

2. The lower wings TE in many photos appears to curve. But upon closer examination (and a little informal photogeometry, this is caused by the fact that the lower wing have a small about of washout built in such that the outboard TE tip of the lower wing is slightly higher than the inboard TE. Combined with the rounded tips of the DIIIa, this creates the effect of a curved lower wing.

BTW, on some photos I could swear I see something like that famous Halberstadt droop!


PS. Is there an established way to build in wing-tip washout?
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Old 02-05-2005, 04:20 PM
  #54  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Abu. from my experience , as thin as the WWI wings are all you need to do is adjust the landing wires to obtain wash out.
Old 02-05-2005, 10:02 PM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Bob, I agree that adjustments to the rigging could be used to set the overall torsion of the wings, but I'm not sure this would produce the featured (up) wingtip look typical of the Pfalz and many other WWI aircraft. For example the alierons on the German 2-seater designes actually appear to have something like a 5 degree torsion built in such that the outboard edge is several inches higher than the inboard edge. No wires could effect this area. I think this torsion would have to be built it.
Old 02-13-2005, 11:31 AM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

It's not much of a start but here are a couple of not quite done prototypes for some handmade WWI-style wheels. Both are in the right 5" size for a 1/6 scale Pfalz. I like the idea of using the spoked wheels but it'd be a bit of a waste on the Pfalz. Maybe I'll continue to refine them for some eventual 2-seater.
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Old 02-14-2005, 09:11 AM
  #57  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

abufletcher,

Your homemade wheels look great. I'm probably going to have to start making them now that Wms. Bros. is out of it. What are you using for the tires?

Jim
Old 02-14-2005, 11:24 AM
  #58  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Jim, thanks. Unfortunately neither style looks exactly like the photos of the wheels on the Pfalz in the Datafile -- which I would describe as flatter with more of a peak near the hub. The pattern of the spokes through the covering also look a bit different. Also there is the obvious inspection hole (with spokes visible) that needs to be replicated. But then that's the advantage of making your own, you don't have to accept the stock look of someone elses wheels. Also the workmanship of this prototype pair is less than ideal. I need to get the wood really really smooth so that it look like metal. Also the cross-section of the rim isn't quite right.

Anyway, now that I have the idea (thanks to all you other kind folks) I can make the next set much more accurate looking.

I tried two types of 1/2" hose for the tires. On the ply wheel I used a kind of hollow rubberized foam. This was much to soft on its own so I slipped a piece of 1/8" hard rubber tubing into it. This is nice and light but I would worry about the longevity of it. It cuts and tears quite easily. The other is serious fabric reinformed heater hose (I think) That looks and feels very much like a a real tire. But it's a bit heavy and has absolutely no give to it. I'll continue to look around for some other alternatives. Plus this 1/2" material is just slightly on the small size. OK but 5/8" might look better.

BTW, I'm impressed with the painting on the CL-III. I'll definitely use the stencil approach if i ever get around to that LVG VI!
Old 02-14-2005, 10:03 PM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Does anyone have any ideas about how the original fuse would have been formed up? I mean the skeletal frame prior to being wrapped with ply strips is just a set of formers and a few longerons. How would all this have been held in place to avoid twisting?
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Old 03-04-2005, 06:35 PM
  #60  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Great thread guys!
I love the Pfalz DIII too. I have a set of 1/6 scale plans for the DIIIa designed by Alan Spievack. They do look good with lots of scale details. I don't know how accurate they are though. I wanted to use them to scale up to 1/4 scale.

I am working on a Halberstad DII and am making the wings with airfoil, built in washout and trailing edge droop. Building washout and reflex is easy with thin wings too. Your ribs should have the reflex built into the airfoil shape. Start by glueing the leading edge on. To set the washout block up the assembly to get the correct washout. Then glue each rib to the spars. I used spruce for my spars. Last, you will have to put a bend in the TE that follows the reflex and glue it on when it's dry. If your washout has flattened after the glue is dry, use your heat gun and twist the wing to get the correct washout again.

The wing tip reflex is easy to make. I started with a sheet of balsa and cut the outline of the wingtip bow from the last rib to the tip, less the amount of laminated wing tip bow. Then I bent the airfoil out line and reflex with my heat gun after I soaked the balsa sheet. after it is dry I glued this below the top outline of the last rib between the LE and TE, like the ribs. If your tip bow is, say 1/4"sq and your balsa sheet tip is 1/8", then the sheet should be 1/16" below the upper surface of the last rib. When you follow the trailing edge lines it will aline itself. Cut and shape the TE and LE of the tips. Last glue on the soaked laminated tip bows right on to the wing tip sheet and onto each other. You can cut the sheet balsa out if you don't want it there. Use strong wood laminates for the bows if you do remove the sheet. Sand all to shape and you get a very nice strong thin washout out, reflexed wing. I build my wing cut out the ribs and add my alierons after the wind is framed to make sure the reflex and washout are correct.

When you cover it start with the bottom. You should make a cradle that will retain the washout when the wing is placed upside down in it. The covering will help retain the the washout with out extra strain. Use the flying wires to set it up and maintain the rigging.

ZZ
Old 03-04-2005, 07:25 PM
  #61  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

ZZ, I'm going to have to read that post a couple of times! I'm unfamiliar with the term "reflex" -- what's this? I have been wondering about how to build in washout and had just about decided it was going to be necessary to construct a specially shaped building surface. With some of the larger 2-seaters it looks like all you'd really need to do is to build a twist into your alierons.

I'd be REALLY interested to know how the Spievack plans for the DIII compare with the Polapink plans I've ordered. Any chance you could post a scan of a representative section -- and I'd do the same (in about a month when I'm back from some travel). I don't intend to build off the Polapink plans but just to use them as a sort of reference for construction problems. I'd like to keep the construction as scale as possible.

I remember the discussion of TE droop on the Halberstad DII. To bad there aren't any factory photos showing wing construction. I'd love to get some insight into how the actual builder jigged up the wing for construction. When making these WWI models I think it's really important to be able to get into the mind of the original builders.
Old 03-04-2005, 07:57 PM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Abufletcher, Reflex is a term used for the upward sweep of the trailing edge of an airfoil. Normal WWI airfoils are undercamvered and curve downward at the trailing edge. Reflexed airfoils curve upward. You can see this in the ailerons in side views. Flying wings use reflexed airfoils too.

I'd like to have been there building these crates,lol. I put a bit of thought into the best method they might have used to build these wings. One was that they just twisted the wing with flying wires. This will work for a consant airfoil wing. Our subjects also have reflex in the outer aileron ribs so twisting will not get the reflex result. The other though came from the Halb DII, is that they curved the rear spar to acheive the trailing edge droop and reflex. This sounds like to much work. I don't think they did it that way. The last and most likely is that the rib shape changed to acheive the various washouts and reflexes.

When I designed my wing panels I kept the airfoil the same and changed the ribs to curve after the rear spar, up or down the amount needed to get the correct washout and reflex in the ailerons. From the under side of the LE and TE of the root rib set at the correct incedence, set the tip to the correct final washout/Reflex. I stared a lot at the pics I had to find the place to put the details. It's about the best thing without factory deawings.

I attached pis of my Pflaz DIIIa. They aren't great but hope you can see. They are vintage plans, I think from the '60's. They don't have much info on them but the initials D.J.M. on the lower left corners.

Take a look at the thread where I showed a drawing of how I did my Halb wings.

ZZ
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Old 03-04-2005, 08:23 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

ZZ, thanks for posting these. Are those plans still available or is this something you scanned in from a magazine years ago? I wouldn't mind getting my hands on a copy. Since I haven't seen the Polapink plans yet, I can make any comparisons. However, there do appear to be a number of "sport scale" modifications in the plans you post. Most notably in the wing airfoils. Reminds me a bit of the Funaero DIII. Also it looks to me like the shape of the LE of the stab is a bit too curved. It's really hard to compare these things until you have them side by side. I remember thinking when I first opened the box for the BUSA EIII that the fuse profile looked pretty reasonable on the plans until I compared it side by side with the Joseph Nieto drawings and then it was obvious that the BUSA fuse shape was almost a complete fantasy. It was at that point that I pretty much just tossed the plans, blew up the Nieto drawings to the same scale and started building from those.

I don't have a lot of respect for most "model plans" I've seen -- but then I haven't seen that many. And I haven't seen any of the proctor plans, or Holman plans, or...

My idea of a good set of "plans" are the sorts of drawings available at Replicraft! Still being a newbie to RC construction, I have a lot to learn about the practical aspects of construction and in this respect a good set of model plans can be of great assistance.
Old 03-05-2005, 01:09 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Abufletcher, PM me about the plans.

I just wrote a big long splerge and go an error posting it an lost it all [:@]
It's late to rewrite it all, but I agree the stab LE has to much curve and the rest of what you said.

I would rather scatch from good drawings and photos.

ZZ
Old 03-06-2005, 08:53 AM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

I THINK I found those Pfalz plans-they're from Flying Models magazine!

Dear Abufletcher and Zoomzoooie:

The PIPE Here yet AGAIN...and a little searching at the Flying Models magazine website at http://www.flying-models.com/ , in their OBTUSELY hard-to-navigate plans listings, FOUND the Pfalz D III plans the two of you are referring to!

These plans are listed as cat.no. CF223, by Alan Spievack, for .60 power, from the June 1971 issue of Flying Models, and are $29.00 for the set.

A reprint of the construction article can be ordered from Flying Models magazine for $3.00 extra (a MUST for such a VINTAGE set of plans!)...so NOW the two of you have got the SOURCE for those Pfalz D III plans you've been talking about!

Of COURSE, a copy of either Windsock Datafile No.21 on the Pfalz D IIIa, or a BRAND NEW Datafile No.107 on the "just earlier" Pfalz D III, would be a MUST HAVE as well to use along with Alan Spievack's planset...I'd get BOTH of them, priced at $17.25 for the No.21, and $19.70 for the NEW one on the D III, for reference on making certain the "less than scale" parts OF that model construction plan are identified, AND "corrected", with help from the Datafiles. Hannan's Runway, where I get just about ALL my Datafiles from, has their Windsock Datafile listings at http://www.hrunway.com/shop/?target=dept_3.html ...they are a GREAT place to get THOSE invaluable volumes from...and they'll even SAVE a hard-to-get copy for you if needed!

Just "one last item" to mention...I've actually MET Dr. Alan Spievack (a Cambridge, MA resident) myself, very many years ago, at a scale contest at my old RC club's field in Bridgewater, MA in the very late 1970s...he had an "oddball scale sized", somewhat between 1/6th and 1/5th scale, Sopwith 1½ Strutter with him that day, which existed LONG before the current Proctor kit of that same subject. I THINK he was really a DENTIST...and from my latest DOWNTURN in my finances from a hurting wisdom tooth that got pulled less than a month ago, I am NOT too happy about how much DENTAL WORK costs these days...but that's another matter entirely... !!!!

Hope this info helps out "at least a small bit"...

Yours Sincerely,

The PIPE!
Old 03-06-2005, 05:14 PM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

The Pipe, Thanks for doing some digging but, I already have a set of Alan's plans and article for the PDIII and Abufletcher has a set by Polapink coming. I'm glad they are still available though.

Your right about getting all the source material you can to work out the scale details not covered in these or other plans.
Thanks for Hannan's for a Winsock Data files source.

Talking about off scale, Ziroli's models all seem to a off scale to some degree. Always some where in between. Why is that? It makes adding scale accessories difficult. Doesn't that effect scale competition as well?

I really miss out on all the good stuff, living in Canada. I grew up in the Yukon, way too isolated to meet anyone, mind you I was only a teenager in 1970's, lol. I think it's good when I hear of you guys meeting the celebrities of RC, and some of you here are celebrities

ZZ
Old 03-06-2005, 07:36 PM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Dear Zoomzoooie:

The PIPE Here yet again...and you're "right on" about those ODDBALL scales!!!

SOME of them. between 1/6th and 1/4th scale, do FORTUNATELY work out to close to 2.4 inches equalling 1 foot, or 1/5th scale...some of those Giant Scale aerobatic ships, though, especially those that are LARGER than 1/4th size, are REALLY oddly sized, and seem to defy easy-availability of scale accessories to make them "more" real...even though they are MOSTLY scaled that way, I suppose, to suit a particular power plant make and size. Also, a few of the "oddly scaled" WW II subjects I've seen available as plan sets are scaled that way to use a particular WHEEL size that's available on the market, and not only a particular engine size...hard to believe, but I've seen it mentioned before.

The Bristol Scout C biplane I'm choosing to model, starting very late this year, as my VERY first WW I Giant Scale project, is going to be "right on" the 25 cm=1m or 3 inch to one foot QUARTER scale size format. I'm mostly using plans I'm drawing up myself on DesignCAD 3000, here at home, for that project, and starting out with the STRUCTURAL drawing of the Scouts C and D that are in Windsock Datafile No. 44, scanned into my PC and on the DesignCAD drawing screen to trace over...as well as a small copy of the FACTORY drawing of the smaller Scout C flying rudder's framing that Hank Iltzsch sent me not very long ago, and a scan of another factory drawing of the "behind-the-pilot's-shoulders" REAR mounted oil tank system that No.1611 (Lanoe Hawker's machine he got the Victoria Cross with on July 25, 1915) had, from the pages of WW I AERO, I've got some GREAT documentation to "run with" with my PC and DesignCAD, to get THAT critical work done.

By the way, I DID meet my AMA District I's NEW Vice President...ANDY ARGENIO...at the WRAMS Show on the last weekend of February this year, and who I worked hard for last autumn, to get him elected...HE will be a great help to aeromodelers in my New England area of the USA...the photo I've attached is of myself meeting Andy that recent weekend!!!

Hope both you and Abufletcher get yourselves BOTH copies of Windsock Datafiles 21 AND 107 for your needs...I've got a basement to clean up "right now" to start to get a REAL modeler's workshop going again, something I haven't had for OVER fifteen years now!

Yorus Sincerely,

The PIPE!
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Old 03-14-2005, 02:28 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Here's a low quality photo of 3 or the 5 pages of the Polapink plans (from AZM) just for comparison purposes. Like all plans, they're a combination of plusses and minuses. On the plus side the outlines all look pretty scale (haven't given them a thorough evaluation yet) and it seems like a practical design. On the minus side, the construction is not has scale internally as I had hoped.

Two things I will want to check carefully are the number of ribs (top and bottom) and length of the "half ribs.' Also I'd like to be able to confirm (or disconfirm) that the DIIIa had a solid skinned center section on the top wing. It looks like that on a number of photos and drawngs and Tom's plans show center sheeting.

Ultimately I don't think I could ever really be satisfied with any "model" plans. I think I prefer to work off of the "real deal" or as close to it as I can get. In the case of the Pfalz DIII I think that's the Flugsport drawings.

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Old 03-15-2005, 01:59 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Don,

Those plans don't look too bad if you ignore the fuse-innards.
I also thought those 'riblets' looked quite exaggerated with a more than half-chord depth/ but comparing them to the wylam drawings featured in 'scale aircraft drawings seems that's really how they were!
I suppose it all depends on how scale you want to go. For museum scale you'd probably need something on a par with replicraft plans. but the wylam drawings, perhaps in combination with winsock/Flugsport or what Pipe suggests seem like a really good place to start, esp. for a 1/6 th model.

right sorry for just barging in like this, first time in weeks I've had a look into RCU.

cheers,

Trev

Ps. zoomzooie, how's the halberstadt prototype coming along? I'm a bit incapacitated right now so I can't start mine, would be very interested in any progress you might've made!
Old 03-15-2005, 03:54 PM
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Hi Trev,
It's on hold for the time being. I'm building 2 at the same time. I have the lower wing panels framed. They look gorgeous with all the curves and started the upper wing. Having trouble locating the position for the dihedral. In photos is appears to be in the center of the wing. On drawings it is outboard a bit and the center section is flat. I think I will go with the photos, they done lie as much lol. I have redo the fuselage, was just not quite right.

I have been working on my website trying to get everthing working and looking good.
I've been trying to make a logo, can't quit get it to work.
Here's my website site if you are interested: http://home.cablerocket.com/~scaleribstitch/

Once I get a little time I will get back at it.

ZZ
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Old 03-15-2005, 05:16 PM
  #71  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

I just got the Pfalz DIII datafile (#107) and it's full of interesting extras like scans of original historical documents. One thing I was surprised to read though was the notes of fuse construction. It says the fuse was constructed with the "wickelrumpf" method of wrapping strips of ply -- which I knew -- but that this was done over a mold and then the two halves were nailed onto the fuse formers (then covered). I had assumed the ply strips were applied directly to the frame. It states that 2 layers of 1mm thick three-ply veneer was used. Combined with fabric glue and dope that's probably no more than about 4mm which is pretty amazing! The owner of Pfalz claimed that this couldn't be dented with a hammer!

Guess I'll need to start carving out a half-fuse mold! What do you guys suggest? Blue foam covered with glass? I can use negative templates of the fuse formers to get the shape right.

Actually I'm almost tempted to do the DIII rather than the DIIIa --- but the DIIIa's external MG's are just so much cooler!

Oh, by the way, the mysterious "other hole" on the wheels opposite the inspection hole looks like it might be the Pfalz company transfer according to the cover artwork on the new datafile.

Trev, yeah, I was a little surprised by the longer half-ribs as well. The apparently extend all the way back to the second spar. Also I notice that the new datafile mentions that the wing center section was covered with ply.

PS. Zoomzooie, your rib stitching tape looks like an interesting product. I've been dreading having to do this the traditional way!
Old 03-15-2005, 06:46 PM
  #72  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Instead of trying to carve out a block of something why not use the scale formers and make your form from them. That way you keep the outlines scale. Lay sheeting as you would normally do on a second set of formers and glass it. Then just cut it in half and there is your accurate forms to wrap your vineer on. This form will make it easy to clamp or pin the ends of the veneers to.

I see a possible problem though, laying the first vineer layer down and keeping it in place. I don't see that glue would be used at that stage. Do you know the degree to set the vineers at? Also you will need a way to press the vineers down while the glue dries. You could make up female mold to go over it.

One thing to note though is that you will have to reduce the outlines of the formers to reduce the difference of the glassed sheeting so your vineer outline is in the correct place.
My plans call for 3/32" sheeting so for example, if I were to use 2 laminatations of 1/32" ply sheeting I would reduce the former outline about 3/32" for the 1/16" ply lay up and about 1/32" of glassing to bring the outline to the correct place. I wonder if two laminations of 1/64" ply would be strong enough? Definitly lighter.

I can see possible added weight glueing up the ply laminations. Maybe it might be better to use balsa sheeting for the vineers and light glassing or just a coat of resin without the glass. All that glue will add weight. This method might be better reserved for larger scales.

What type of glue would you use to lay up the laminations?

ZZ
Old 03-15-2005, 07:13 PM
  #73  
abufletcher
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

I haven't really thought this through at all yet. Weight is definitely a concern. No point making it scale if it's going to weigh a ton! This is where the fact that we're building FLYING models and not just static mock-ups keeps up honest! If i do decide to do the fuse with authentic construction style I'd want to be constructing a VERY light shell. Possibly two layers of 1/64th ply then cover with something like Sig Koverall and dope. I might do some strength tests first.

I imagine I'd be using just plain cartenters glue as CA doesn't bond ply well.

BTW, another problem with the Polapink plans is that the curve of the center cutout seems a little "flat" compared with the lines in the Datafile drawings.

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Old 03-15-2005, 10:47 PM
  #74  
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

Carpenters glue really should be clamped tight to get into the grain to be effective. I was thinking a really thinned out epoxy would work well with immediate adhesion, dry fast enough and give added strength with 1/64" ply. I haven't tried polyurethane glue yet (Gorilla glue), but it looks like it would be a good one to try and I think it would be light and extremely strong.

One method I use to build light is to add stringers like a Guillows kit and thinner sheeting over it. The stringers support the sheeting and the sheeting adds strength. I also use the stringer method in wing construction to keep scale rib count, run stringers down the length of the wings. Only every other few ribs will be full ribs and the others are square stock strings across the top of the stringers imitating ribs. Works well for false ribs too. Sometimes I use sheeting on the leading edge, but under the false ribs. No one will know but you and it will look very scale from the outside.

You could also sheet it with slightly thinner balsa and glue one layer of 1/64" ply on it.

All in all I think you will have to stick with conventional balsa sheeting to keep it light but in the cockpit area to you could have 1/64" ply where it would be visible.

I was thinking the same about the upper wing cut out on the Polapink plan

ZZ
Old 03-16-2005, 09:44 AM
  #75  
abufletcher
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Default RE: Pfalz DIII resources -- Photos, Drawings, Plans, etc.

I'm very curious about the weight and strength of thin ply vs. thicker balsa. I can't imagine that 1/32 balsa sheeting would be very strong but two layers of 1/64 ply seems like it might be quite solid.

Actually if I were to keep with the spirit instead of the practice of the original builders I should probably just do the whole fuse in fibreglass cause that's sure what they were have done!

I may just decide to build the fuse so that the cockpit areas look authentic and go with traditional building methods on the rest. At least with a fabric covered aircraft you see the "insides" against the sun but planes like the Pfalz and the Albatros could be carved out of foam or molded in glass for all the difference it would make. This is actually what has kept me away from these aircraft for so long -- they're somehow a bit too much like WWII birds! All surface and no interior.

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