abufletcher

What are the piloting skills that would be particularly valuable for the pilots of WWI scale models? Generally speaking I suppose these models could be described as having light wing loading and serious amounts of drag. Then of course there are those silly undercarriages which are almost always too tall and too far forward.

Many of the original WWI aircraft were prone to terrible tip stalling and near unrecoverable spins. I remember reading one account of a pilot who stalled out in combat and ended up spiraling down to his death from more than 5,000 feet. There was just nothing he could do to pull it out. BTW, I've found that, at least in RealFlight, a sudden tip stall on the Sopwith Camel can be dealt with by immediate full rudder in the opposite direction of the stall combined with a quick burst of power (followed a moment later but a small amount of up elevator). However too much power and the model tip stalls the other direction. I'm taking about low level recoveries here not situations where you can just release the sticks and catch it after a short dive.

I'd love to hear your experiences with (WWI?) biplanes. What tricks have you learned for taking off and landing (in a variety of conditions and with a variety of models)? And what are the keys to scale "mission oriented" flying?

Tmoth4

My Feedback: (1)

On takeoffs with the WW1 planes you need to feed in throttle gradually and be quick with the rudder to keep it straight. In the air I haven't found them to be prone to tip-stalling, but they will do very tight turns if you want to. On landing, I found it best to keep a slight amount of power on and land the model on the main wheels with the tail high (but not too high!) and let it roll until the tail comes down by itself. Especially with the DR-1, once the tail comes down, rudder control is lost. For taxiing, hard rudder and blasts of throttle will turn it, but it's difficult in gusty conditions.

I think the key is being proficient with the rudder, more so than with a WW2 types.

I've flown several types of WW1 planes (SE5a, Nieuport, Pup, DR-1) and have had pretty good luck with them all (except for the occasional landing flip), but I found the G2 Camel and DR-1 almost IMPOSSIBLE to takeoff and land well![:-] If you can handle those on the G2 simulator, you'll have NO PROBLEMS with the models in real life!

Jim

abufletcher

Tim, well I no problems at all (now after much practice) take off with either the Camel or DrI in G2 but landing is a whole different matter. I've only be able to successful land a handful of times out of hundreds of attempts. Any attempt to do a normal stall landing inveariably results in a tip stall and immediate crash with the Camel on the simulator. The only solution seems to be a wheel landing with the immediate throttle cut the moment you touch down. But that's just simulator experience. But as you say if you can handle that...

I've heard you can tame ground-loops somewhat by fixing the wheels to the axle so they have to turn together. I'm thinking of trying this on my Nieuport.

abufletcher

I often hear people say that you need to keep a little power on with biplanes during landings because of the drag. How much power are we talking about? Just a couple of clicks above idle? And is the idea to suddenly chop the power just prior to touch down or do you simply land at higher speeds.

Also what are you experiences flying off of grass vs. dirt vs. asphalt runways. I must admit I look at all those green green fields of all you folks out in the mid-west ("back east" from my California perspective ) with awe and envy. And then there's Donnie's field up in Scotland which definitely qualifies for my list of "most beautiful fields I've seen). My own field here in Japan is best described as dirt with intermittent grass stubble -- probably a fairly realistic description of many WWI airfields. I haven't had an real problems controlling my metal skid taildragger on this field on take off but then it's not a biplane and has a really big rudder.

My field also has an almost constant cross-wind coming in a almost 90 degrees (in across the runway towards the pits).

Tmoth4

My Feedback: (1)

The most problems I have with landing the WW1 types is when I try to 3-point them. When I say keep the power on I mean just a click or so above idle until touchdown. On mine I like to have the axle fixed, and the ends bent slightly to give a little toe-in. That seems to help with ground handling. I fly off grass, a hard surface would be a completely different situation![:-]

Jim

Mustang Man-RCU

Abu,
Keep just enough power on to provide a CONSTANT rate of sink that will put the model where you want it on touchdown(right in front of you). I have tried choping throttle just before the wheels make contact but this has usually resulted in a noseover. I keep throttle on until after the mains are well on the ground and then reduce throttle and let the tail come down on its own. Take-offs can be very entertaining and has been mentioned you need to be proficient with the rudder. Most guys I have seen trying take-offs for the first few times have a tendency to over-correct on the rudder and this usually causes more problems. I put my rudder rates on the least responsive position for take-offs as it is easier to keep the model straight on low rates. Cross winds can give you fits on WW-I models due to their high center of gravity and narrow track. My best advice for takeing off in even moderate crosswinds is don't. I have learned this the hard way. I hope this helps. Good luck.

Steve

Lucky Dog

My Feedback: (1)

Jim,
I agree with everything you said, with exception of the similarity of the G2 and the flying the model for real. At least for me, I had done quite well with the G2 Tripe and Camel (only flipping over on landings half the time), but having little trouble on take-off with either after a little practice. However, when it came time for me to try and fly my AZM Triplane, was I in for a rude awakening! My rudder skills were awful, and take-offs were nearly impossible for me. Practice. practice, practice with the rudder. A number of guys have told me I should mix some rudder with ailerons too. I have purposefully avoided doing that in order to force myself to learn to use that left stick more. That being said, with a couple of years under my belt now with remembering to use !QUOT!all of the control surfaces!QUOT!, my flying has improved and I may consider mixing in a bit of rudder.... and take another crack at the tripe.

Abu,
Flying off grass is infinitely preferable to a hard surface, especially if you have a scale, not steerable tail skid. If there is a strong cross wind, and enough room that you're not going to be un-safe, we have taken off and landed almost cross runway if some situations. But you need to be sure and not do something that would endanger other fliers and planes. David Johnson (who flies a beautiful 1/3 scale Albatross told me this past weekend at a scale meet that he puts a piece of hard rubber tubing over the tail skid if he has to fly off a hard surface and there's a cross wind. It gives a bit of a bite on the runway, and is easily removed for judging.

That's my .02 worth. A wise old flier once told me that !QUOT!Opinions are like arm pits, we all have them, and the other guys probably stinks.!QUOT!

Tmoth4

My Feedback: (1)

One thing I just remembered...I took the battery pack in my DR-1 and moved it down lower in the fuselage to try and get the CG lower, since the DR-1 is kind of top-heavy. It seemed to help reduce nose-overs on landing. At least it doesn't happen so often anymore![]

Jim

abufletcher

Tim, that's a good point when it comes to figuring out radio installation. If at all possible it would be better to keep the heavier items toward the bottom. BTW, would you imagine that adding nose weight on the firewall encourages nose overs? I have been thinking of trying to located the battery under the cowl on the false firewall (on the oppose side of the muffler).

allanflowers

I have two 1/8 scale Fokker E.Vs and finally gave up on a bare tailskid. I added a small wheel. It doesn't steer with the rudder but is a big help keeping the plane relatively straight.
Nonetheless, taking off with a side wind is impossible, landing in a crosswind is almost as bad. On the take off, I have much better luck if I decipline myself NOT to use any rudder because it is so hard not to overcontrol. I use the ailerons to keep the plane level and kind of accept whatever heading it decided to take, as long as it is safe for people standing around.
Still, my track record for successful takeoffs and landings is not very good.
I do not think trying to shift the cg lower is a good idea, given the fact that these planes, with their high wings, are goofy in turns as it is. I do have a lot of rudder mixed in to the ailerons.

Allan

BigglesFliesUndone

Looks like Im too late Don...its all been said Just dont take off crosswind or you will regret it. Power kept on for landing .. it doesnt land faster because the drag keeps it going slow. Its a bad habit to stop the engine on any aircraft to land. Keep enough power to be firm with the model ..flying it right to the ground. If this link works.. there is a 2meg video clip of my GIII landing to give you the idea
[link=http://d.s.wilcox.users.btopenworld.com/Movies/caud3.avi]Caudron GIII link[/link]

abufletcher

Donnie, I've been waiting for you to check in!!! Don't fly in a crosswind? Hmmm....well I guess I'll have to wait until I leave Japan! I don't think I've been to the field here even one day where there wasn't some crosswind. It's usually pretty mild but...

The usable runway width is probably about 15 metes so maybe it I went full throttle right away.

Wow! I'm surprised at how fast the Cauderon is on a landing. You're right you really do just fly it right onto the ground. I'm also amazed at how tight you can turn on the ground!

Do you ever do anything fancy with your radio setup? Mixing? Dual rates?

Looks great BTW!

BigglesFliesUndone

Depending on how light your bipe is and the strength of the oncoming wind.. it will take off in a matter of feet at full throttle. so better across the runway than along it (assuming it is safe) . Perhaps you can clear another 5m of ground at the side of one end of your runway to create a "short" strip for bipes ? If you do take off cross wind , the first thing the model will do when it gets "light on its wheels" is weathercock into wind and will do so as quickly as the GIII turned in the clip Landing in a slight crosswind s not so bad as long as you "fly it in" correcting drift with the rudder.

Nothing fancy on my Xmitter but it has a little rudder mixed with aileron (I prefer manual rudder input for turns / correcting drift) Dual rates are standard for me though normally fly scale on low rates and only use high for non scale manouvers when i get bored Exponential is on all surfaces ..usually as high as 30 - 35%

abufletcher

I'll ask the guys at the field about clearing out another runway into the wind. I shouldn't be too hard. It's probably about 20 meters wide. The scary bit though it that since my field is on an old rice terrace there would be a 5 meter drop at the end of the runway! Kind of like taking off from an aircraft carrier! Actually a lot of people do take off at about 45 degees to the runway. But these are mostly the 3-D types.

I'm surprised that you use that much expo. I'm new to all this. I think I have maybe 15% on my VG6000. I'm not using any mixing at the moment since I've heard it's better to learn the feel of the rudder and ailerons separately at first.

Lucky Dog

My Feedback: (1)

Jim,
That's a darn good point with the battery on the Dr1. The battery on my AZM Tripe is mounted on top part of the firewall. I'll have to investigate if I can find a lower spot for it.

Non- steerable tail skid take-offs and landing in cross winds are do-able (more challenging yes, but do-able). My 80 inch span E-111 is so equipped. Just get the tail up quick, then steer it with the rudder. Roll-outs on landing can be interesting, but do-able. What's hard (I think) is trying to taxi back in (especially on a paved surface). It looks like a ballerina out there!

abufletcher

What are your preferences in terms of propeller size and pitch? Do you generally try to run a large low-pitch prop with your WWI models or do you prefer a smaller higher-pitch prop. I'm assuming most of you use a 4-stroke (or maybe a gasser).

I've always just automatically gone for the largest, most scale length prop and then figured out what pitch I'll need to suit the engine. The scale size of the prop on my Nieuport would be around 15" and so with the FA-56 the best I could do (according to Saito) is 12-6 or 7. I suppose I could stretch that out to 13 with a pitch of 4-5.

Lucky Dog

My Feedback: (1)

Abu,
With my Saito .80 on my 80" Eindecker, I fly an APC 15x4W. I tried a 15x8, but it was too much prop and I got a lot of pre-ignition and not enough power. My Saito 56 powered AZM Triplane flew fairly well with the 12x6 (the limited flying time I've had with it), But I am going to try a smidgen larger like you're considering when I get it flying again. Please let me know what you find out with the bigger prop on your .56. I have heard of guys successfully flying much bigger props than recommended on the .56, but I've also heard that it's hard on the engine.

WW1 stuff loves the 4 strokes and big props. Torque is what you need, not speed.

Mustang Man-RCU

A larger diameter prop with less pitch is definately in order for WW-I types. Less pitch will get you in the air quicker with a reduced take-off roll as well as slow down better for landings. I fly my 80" E-III powered by a Saito 91 with a 14X6 wooden prop that I have rounded the tips to look more scale and my 101" E-III that is powered by a US 41 gasser flys best with a 20X8 Master Airscrew Classic series prop, again for best performance and scale appearence. I have a feeling that a 15" diameter prop for a Saito 56 is going to be a tad much for that engine and too big a prop is without doubt hard on an engine. WW-I types when set up properly with the proper power to weight ratio usually fly scale at about 1/3-1/2 throttle anyway once airborne. Good luck and I hope this is a help to you.

Steve

P.S. Full throttle applied from a dead stop for take-off's almost always results in disaster on WW-I models. Short coupling + high C.G. + narrow track=disater, usually due to over correcting with rudder. An easy way to determine how much experience a pilot has with WW-I stuff is to watch the take-off, those with little or no experience usually don't (take off). LOL.

FastPass

My Feedback: (6)

I've been flying a Great Planes Fokker DR 1 with a OS 91 4 stroke for a while now. I had read the horror stories prior to the maiden flight but I flew early in the morning with no wind. Takeoff was easy and straight forward. The tail comes up rather quickly, but it is stable and tracks well. I used only 1/3 throttle on take off. That's all it needs. Landings are a different matter. Most of my aircraft had been tail draggers over the years, but the triplane's narrow gear makes it tricky on the roll out after touchdown. Actually, a headwind on landing makes the groundspeed lower so you'll tend to make a better landing. It is best to try and land diagonally if possible to reduce the crosswind component. Also, biplanes and WW I aircraft fly better with rudder initiating the turns. I would recommend that when you are set up on final approach, if the aircraft is getting out of shape when its 5 feet from the ground, then add power and go around again. Don't try to force a landing unless it looks good. I've found that flying the DR 1 is a rewarding experience in that I have to work at it to keep it flying in a scale manner. The plane has neutral stability, that is, it goes where you point it even if you release the sticks, it will not recover, you just have to continue to fly it until it's tied down at the hanger.

ZoomZoom-RCU

[8D]This is an insightfull thread. You make a good point Fastpass, that rudder is very important in the"in flight turning" aspect with many WWI designs, and especially the Fokkers. I fly a Fokker DVI and usually fly it exclusively with the rudder, which will actually turn it faster than the ailerons will. I have a feeling the DRI is roughly the same, having close to the same layout, but with an extra wing of course. I had a hard time getting used to the ground handling as all of you mentioned previously....rudder is crucial on takeoff....but just "blips", not overcompensation which is so easy to do. And the landings take some getting used to as well. You just fell crazy bringing this aircraft in under power, in what seems to be too hot an approach, but when you fly it down onto the field,or just over the threshold and right on the deck and cut the power and see the speed evaporate in an instant....you have an AHA!! moment.

One funny thing I thought I'd mention is that I fly from a very short grass field, and the DVI is not overpowered. So, to be sure I can clear the high grass at the end of the field, I hold the tail of the Fokker and rev to full throttle......I then get my right hand ready on the stick and with my left, give the little guy a carrier launch...ie....I shove the plane forward with my left hand to speed it down the strip. As it peels off, I stand and keep her true with rudder blips and then once she's at the end of the field I ease her off with a little up elevator, and she's golden. If I had a longer field I'd go for the slow throttle advance technique, but you's gotta do what you's gotta do.

ZZ

Jim_McIntyre

[sm=lol.gif]

Agreed with almost everything said.

The interesting point with a DR1 is that the entire empenage becomes engulfed in "dirty" air the moment the tail begins to settle, making the rudder and elevator quite ineffective. The only way I've found to regain effective control is by applying a shot of throttle to get some more airflow over these surfaces. I always blip the throttle to make the elevator more effective to avoid the inevitable nose-over as the tail settles. From that description, you can tell that I do "mains' landings as 3 pointers with my DR1 require a skill I don't seem to posess.

Hope this helps.[8D]

Tmoth4

My Feedback: (1)

Interesting thing is...I saw the pilot of a full-scale DR-1 replica try to do a 3-point landing (in a crosswind, if I recall) at an airshow. He started rocking back and forth, hit the wingtip skids, and almost went over on his nose...just like the models do!![sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

Jim

ZoomZoom-RCU

Bet he didn't try that again any time soon. I'd say he got real lucky......... he didn't nose over, or worse, catch a wing tip! With a model you shake your head and walk away....with full size you may need assistance!!

ZZ.

Tmoth4

My Feedback: (1)

I could really see why they put the wingtip skids on! They've also saved my model's wingtips on several occasions.

Jim

Jim_McIntyre

The skids on the replica I used for documentation were axe handles.
Apparently this was done as replacements are readily available. [sm=lol.gif]

I've made several since I've been flying mine... in fact, the picture that made it to the magazines (F4C 2002) sported an axe handle fragment on the port wingtip (in the background) as the picture was taken right after my first round flight.