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Plans Copiers on Ebay

Old 12-18-2002, 05:09 AM
  #51  
F4u5
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:stupid: Sorry Easytiger....don't care how you feel.....I'm not stealing. #1 - do not call me a thief because you do not understand copyright laws (sub-thought....can you spell SLANDER). How do I get the design for free when I pay $50.00 for plans, another $60 to enlarge them and then sell the originals for $35. Poor math on your part. #2 - you have no idea how I would feel about anything. #3 - I would be more than happy to put you in touch with a corporate lawyer friend of mine that would tell you that your interpretation on copyright infringement, in my case, comes from a box of Cracker Jacks....we've discussed this. So, I know it is not a case of "justified in my mind". It's a case of facts. Now, it is funny...I reply with known facts. You reply, attacking my character, labeling me as a thief, evidently speaking for me, knowing how I "would feel". All because you have no concept of another opinion. That's pretty good. I think you could have "taken the high road" as you claim to be so good at, and not attacked my character, and just disagreed on facts, without calling me a thief. But...what else can I expect from the such. You continually contradict yourself thru this entire thread. First you say "I am not talking aboput people who resell originals" (that's me)....then you say "I am not talking about such and such old plans that no one cares about" (not for you to decide as copyright is copyright)....then you say "if the copyright person does not pursue due dillegence (do not care), then copy away"....etc., etc., etc. Now, you either are in favor of copying or not copying plans....PERIOD. You cannot, as you seem to, bounce back and forth as YOUR INTERPRETATION dictates. Therefore, you "have justified in your own mind". Nuff said...back to the fun........
Old 12-18-2002, 05:39 AM
  #52  
William Robison
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

EZCat:

Sorry, but I think the Corsair has you this time. If he were the F2G version instead of the F4u5 he'd really be overpowering. Haw!

But he would be in violation if he built another plane from his enlarged plans. Until he sold the plans there was no restriction on the number constructed, when he sold the plan he also sold the right to build from it. At whatever enlargement or reduction. As in a photograph, the copyright covers the image in whatever size it is rendered.

An owner of my twin's plans? You mean they're really MAN's?

Bill.
Old 12-18-2002, 07:37 AM
  #53  
foxx
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Sorry F4u5 I see your point. I don't believe your are doing anything wrong. William Robinson also make a great point here that once you sold your original plans you give up the rights to use it again .
Old 12-18-2002, 12:55 PM
  #54  
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I am TRYING to avoid getting into a big debate, but...
Bottom line is:
You are using the design for free.
And PLEASE don't tell me that "you talked to your corporate lawyer and got the FACTS". If it was all that clear cut, we would not need lawyers, would we?
A couple of years ago, we had the same brouhaha over at RCO. I share an office with SEVEN lawyers, all sharks that won't leave a scrappa meat on your bones.
And...there were two different opinions, re: copying plans and the Fair Use Act.
One side said that ANY copy, personal use or not, was a violation.
The other side said that a copy made for personal use, no profit involved, was okay.
Either side would be willing to go to court to argue the point...on MY dime, of course!
So much for your "corporate lawyer" just "laying down the facts". When you lose a court case, it does not do any good to say "but my lawyer said..."

"I took the liberty of explaining to Mr. Vaillancort the fair use copyright laws."
That's an incredibly arrogant statement. You "took the liberty" of explaining to this guy who does this for a living how it was okay to steal from him.
Bottom line is, it says right there on the plans:
"any copying, commercial or otherwise, strictly forbidden."
That's pretty clear cut, isin't it?
Notice that most kinkos places won't copy copyrighted material, period?
Old 12-18-2002, 01:48 PM
  #55  
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

Let me put it in very simple terms:
Two guys want to build Vallaincourt Hurricanes.
One buys the plans, makes a copy to build from, then sells the plans to another guy, who also builds one.
Two guys build Vallaincourt airplanes, to his copyrighted design, but only one pays.
That's not okay.
Both guys enjoyed the fruits of Roy's labor, but one got a free ride, because he sold his plan to the other guy and got his money back, and Roy V only got paid once.
Come on, guys. Not like Roy and Nick Z are getting rich off of this in the first place, to cheat them out of money like this is no good.
Old 12-18-2002, 01:49 PM
  #56  
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

Wrong again Eaytiger....Kinko's is more than happy to copy my plans under the fair use COPYRIGHT laws. Now, I see you say you make copies of plans. I would be curious to know if you would go on to say that YOU HAVE NEVER SOLD A SET OF ORIGINAL PLANS FROM WHICH YOU HAVE MADE A COPY....come on...have you. As for the lawyer thing, I agree with you, but, he knows the facts, better than YOU and I...so I would go with his word over yours. I'll put you in touch with him for free. As for my "ARROGANCE" as you so graciously label it....yeah, maybe so, but that's the way it has to be when people talk on theory instead of facts, as you are here...kinda like talking outta both holes if you know what I mean. Did I hear you say you have sold originals from which you copied yet? I really am not sure why you are taking up this fight to begin with. You are just another opinion, as me. Let it go...nuff said. Now, I'm done with the topic. To get it back on track with your original statement....Yes, I agree with you that you should not be out there selling copies of plans.
Old 12-18-2002, 01:58 PM
  #57  
Otto Kudrna
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

Pardon my ignorance, but I would like to ask. If I buy a Kit or a plan, I build the subject, I am not allowed to sell the plans afterword? I must either keep the plans for ever or destroy them when I am finished with them? I also talked with Mr. Ziroli. I asked him to buy a set of reduced plans directly from him. He told me that he could not do that and that he would sell me a set of regular plans and that I should go and have them reduced. What we are talking about here, I think, is that if you want to read a book that may have taken an author a year or more to write, you must go out and buy it. You are not allowed to go to the library and read it for free, since the reading is the final intended end result of the book. The library is hence violating the copy right laws. Also, since every library in the US has copying machines available for the public use they are promoting the infringement of copy right laws and all the libraries should than be closed and all the books be burned, because they are used and may not be resold in order to not infringe on any laws. Do I have this right? Am I understanding this correctly? If so, than anyone who has used a copying machine to copy anything except their own original work has broken the law. Anyone who has sold a book that has been read, has broken the law. anyone who has sold a magazine which has been looked at has broken the law. Anyone who made a copy to put into their documentation folder for that special scale event has broken the law. Conclusion: Burn all the used books in the libraries knock down the libraries shut down all the scale events, because everyone has a documentation folder. Etc. Etc.......... Is this correct? I have Left Czechoslovakia in 1965 to get away from tyranny, to have some freedom, at this rate, if my understanding is correct I think that many people would be running from the US. As a US Marine I am here to protect the freedoms we have in this country, and if all the lawyers in this country rise up to impose unwanted restrictions, I am sure that my comrades and I can make short work of them. My $.02

PS I think that Hitler and Stalin attempted this a few years ago. And also I am against some one buying a set of plans, making a dozen copies and selling them, illegal or not it is immoral. I am also the importer and exclusive distributor of HiPM Magazine in the US and have attempted to take someone to court about copyright infringements. Needless to say we lost, because there are certain "reasonable use" allowances which we are bound to. A lawyer will take any case and argue your point, it is money in his pocket win or lose.

Otto Kudrna GySgt USMC and proud of it (also a scale builder)
"Semper Fidelis"
Old 12-18-2002, 02:02 PM
  #58  
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

Alright, let's put that to bed.
It ain't worth all that.

But I'm right! ;^)
I don't copy plans and then sell them, no. Actually, I think I did, once, the Capitol Flamingo seaplane, from the thirties. I had the kit, and I sold it, but the plan was not in the Pond Catalog, so I made copy, as it is a mighty rare bird! Who has the rights to Capitol Models? I tried, but never found out. Public domain, most likely.
Kinkos...the one on 27th street never gives me a problem, the one on Lexington will not make copies. According to their store policy, they may NOT make copies of any copyrighted material without written permission, as they can and will be held liable if somebody sues. But how well that is enforced, well, I guess it is up to the store manager. I am sure I am not the only person who has been turned away at some point.
I wonder where the Ebay theives are getting their plans done? Certainly not at kinkos, at the $3/a foot I pay...
Old 12-18-2002, 02:05 PM
  #59  
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Those are mighty big questions, Otto, that are a little beyond the scope of this forum, I ain't going there!
Hey, what's hiPM magazine?
Old 12-18-2002, 02:15 PM
  #60  
Otto Kudrna
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HiPM Magazine is a Czech Publication which is intended for documentation for the Modeler. Similar to the "Model Aircraft Monthly" by SAM Publications. Our Magazine has been around for 12 years and we cover aircraft ships and armor. We provide the modeler with scale drawings, camouflage and markings. and historical info to document a model. Or just to help them build one.

Otto
Old 12-18-2002, 02:22 PM
  #61  
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

Gotta agree with OTTO and William Robinson.
Old 12-18-2002, 02:24 PM
  #62  
Otto Kudrna
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To get back to the subject, which I think that this thread was intended for. There are 2 guys on e-Bay who are almost for sure braking the law. They are "uncle-willies" and "ultramega2" let us see if we can help the industry by putting these two out of business.

Otto
Old 12-18-2002, 02:25 PM
  #63  
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Don't forget startpoint.
Old 12-18-2002, 02:38 PM
  #64  
Otto Kudrna
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Did not see "startpoint" but will look for him. This should be the purpose of this forum. In order for people like Mr. Ziroli and others like him to be able to draw plans for us, so there are always new plans available to us. I believe that it is our responsibility as fellow modelers to protect them. It will not harm them when a couple of fellow modelers exchange a plan or two but it will put them out of business if we allow people like "uncle-willies", "startpoint", and "ultramega" to continue "STEALING" from them, and fencing the "STOLEN" product. let us do our part as fellow modelers and do what is right in stead of trying to argue technicalities. Let us unite and fix the obvious problem at hand. I think that this may be appreciated more.
I think that A good start would be, when you are cruising e-Bay to email this thread to every bidder on the identified violation post. "startpoint" "ultramega" "uncle-willies" and post new ons as they are found, and as they change their names.

Otto
Old 12-18-2002, 03:26 PM
  #65  
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

I thought scratch building took up most of ones free time??
Old 12-18-2002, 03:59 PM
  #66  
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Ebay rules does not allow the sale of copies of any copyrighted material , if you guys come across any of these people which Otto mentioned please report them to Ebay ,they will take care of them. I am sure these people are not modelers I have traded on Ebay for many years and I am convinced the modelers are the most honest bunch of guys out there
Old 12-18-2002, 04:17 PM
  #67  
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Oh SCALECRAFT....you are correct. I should have been building. No wonder I am stressed for being behind on my project. Thx for kicking me back into gear
Old 12-18-2002, 05:17 PM
  #68  
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There have been some very good points made in this topic. Here is my two cents worth.

The copyright laws are a bit gray, as far as "fair use".

My feeling after spending a lot of time drawing up a set of plans for a plane which I have been flying for years and having people ask for plans is:

Copying the plans is ok if it is for your use to protect the orginals. Like to cut it up to make parts, or to fit your work bench.

Not ok to copy and resell, same size, reduced or enlarged.

Not ok to build more than one plane from a set of plans unless it is for youself. Once you build from it you can't sell them.

My thought is that by selling my plan is that I am selling the right to build one copy of my copyrighted design from my copy of copyrighted plans. Note this is my plan when I sell plans and may not be the intent of other plan makers.

I think that any one out there who has produced a set of good plans can see that it is only right that the designer should get the payment for his work. Now if a designer does not care if his work is copied thats their choice.

If I ever catch anyone selling my plans on E-Bay, like those other jokers I would try to go after them.

As far as the comment about copying being common place in the hobby. That is a true statment. I have a good friend who designed a great parkflyer model and sold plans. Later a larger mail order shop started selling an ARF exact copy of his plane that was made in the Czech Republic. They knew it was a copy but sold it and still sell it to this day. As far as I am concerned they are just as guilty by selling it as the person that produces it is. He did not get any monies from this and it was done without his permission.

Be a part of the soluition not part of the problem, don't buy copies of copyrighted material.

Jeremy
Old 12-18-2002, 08:00 PM
  #69  
M Gill
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F4u5,

I do not want to get into the legality debate apart from this....You had expressed permission from Nick to enlarge his designs for your own purposes. That is legal enough!

As fro your experiences with the two designers that you mentioned.....some are in the AIRPLANE business, and others are in the airplane BUSINESS.

Life is too short, this is a hobby, I wish more people would respect each other (you showed great respect by asking for the designer's permission).

Mace Gill
The Aeroplane Works
Old 12-20-2002, 12:53 AM
  #70  
scalebldr
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Default copy of construction articles

where does this fit in.amodeler wants the construction article of a magazine plan from 1976,ie model builder,i have the magazine but do not want it out of my possession so i scan the article and e-mail it to him to build the model.did i goof in trying to help some one out?i did not accept any payment for this or ask for any so i did not profit in the exchange.on the other hand if i e-mailed him a scan of the magizine plans and they were taken to kinkos for enlargement on their scanner and 36 inch printer because the full size plans are no longer available then what??
Old 12-20-2002, 01:42 AM
  #71  
William Robison
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Wormy:

I had not thought it through to your point, but yes, it is implied that only one airplane will be built from each set of plans sold, and that means the buyer of your plans set would have to pay you an additional royalty for each plane after the first.

Scalebldr:

The older plans were published with the understanding that any number of planes could be built from them, so your copying of that example should be legal. But when you send acopy of the article.......

That is unlike what you see now.

For example, every partial plan currently published in RCM has a big overlay stating the plan is copyrighted. And what they publish is not a complete plan set.

Plans, plans, who owns the plans?
. Do they belong to RCM, or are they MAN's?

Bill.
Old 12-20-2002, 02:08 AM
  #72  
CoosBayLumber
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Default Yet another

On a similar subject, just recently heard about a fellow who used to do the same as noted above, but about ten years ago under the label of I.M.P. Scale of Hernando Florida.

Anyone familiar with the operation?


Wm.
Old 12-20-2002, 02:42 AM
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scalebldr
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so instead of helping out a fellow modeler by giving him a copy of an article i have i am not to do anything to help him out?yet at a library i could use their copy machine to copy an article from their subscribtion?now i am totally confused!do i continue to help others out with imformation that i have and others don't or do i ignore the plese help and wanted posts?i thought this was a hobby that if you had the ability to help someone you did it.when i go flying and some one needs a prop or their battery for their stater is dead i give them a prop or loan my starter out as that was what others did for me 30 years ago,have things changed that much.i read about guys at the master loaning work shops and spare parts of retracts to other contestants that have had a mishap,i always thought that was part of the brotherhood of modelers to help each other.
Old 12-20-2002, 02:47 AM
  #74  
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

I had been searching for the Col. Art Johnson P-38 plans for quite some time. It is my favorite airplane and some day I hope to scratch build it. Scalebldr was able to help me out with the article from a 1978 Model Buidier magazine. I don't see any difference in him lending me an old magazine to read and copy the article myself or him sending me the info as a friendly gesture.

More and more of this information is available on the magazines websites for EVERYONE to download and print. Even the AMA is adding more indepth iformation to their website. If you visit these sites you will notice they are not requiring anyone to log in as a registered magazine subscriber. Alot of this information is apparently in the"Public Domain" if that term is used anymore.

Now if the company or person makes it know that the information is copy writed, then it is up to all of us to respect that and abide by it. Now with plans and software, you are within the word of the law to make copies of these items for your own use. Like copies of plans to cut up for templates and save the original.

In my research for old plans I found -- Bill Northrop--- [email protected]. He has purchased the copy writes to a number of different plans. He apparently makes this known in the Model Aviation and Flying Models magazines. I have not seen his column or add yet so I don't have any other verified information.

Just my two cents worth. This hobby is a great way for folks to help one another out and as long as we aren't breaking any laws and it helps another R/Cr, how bad are we?
Old 12-20-2002, 03:27 AM
  #75  
William Robison
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Default Plans Copiers on Ebay

AlStack and Scalebldr:

My response to Wormy J and Scalebldr was to do with legalities, not what's "Right."

If you think there is no difference I refer you to all the frivolous suits instituted in recent years by the bottom-feeding class known as "Lawyers."

And if "Right" prevailed the sleazy b******s would lose all of them.

Like the woman who sued McDonald's because her coffee was hot. And won. Where's the "Right" in that? Did she expect COLD coffee?

Yes, you should keep on helping other modelers, but I would suggest doing it my way.

When I am asked for something of that sort I will happily comply AFTER I do a search for the owner of whatever. If I find it I will refer to asker to the source.

Only after I am satisfied it's no longer available from the copyright holder will I send it, and be happy to do so. But if the copyright is still in force, whether it can be had from the owner or not, it's still not "Right."

And we're still confused.

I have a twin on the boards, may I steal from your hoards?

Bill.

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