RC Scale Aircraft Discuss rc scale aircraft here (for giant scale see category above)

VK .60 Sized SW Camel

Reply

Old 03-28-2003, 03:03 AM
  #1  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

I'm getting an old hand-me down VK Camel ready to fly. I have an old NIB K&B .65 Sportster. Got another muffler adapter and set of screws. Had adapter made into a spacer and screws spliced with silver soldering so that stock muffler hangs beneath ring cowl between gear legs.

Question, what size and type of tank do I need? I'm told that the Sportster runs best without muffler pressure and is happy with an 11X8 prop. Previous owner gave up trying to fly it due to ground looping tendency. I may add a removable tail wheel linked to rudder to control ground looping . Proctor told me that balance point is 3" back from leading edge top wing.

Any recommendations from those who have flown this model are indeed welcome. Want to know what aerobatics it can or can't do, quirks, etc.
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2003, 05:21 AM
  #2  
pittsdriver
My Feedback: (7)
 
pittsdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Twin Falls, ID
Posts: 916
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

First of all get rid of the K&B Sportster engine posibly one of the worst running model engines ever produced. I had one with a K7B Veco .61 that flew very well. Great roll rate with the four ailerons. It needs a reliable engine because like a typical WW1 model it has a lot of drag with all of the flying wires and glides like a rock. Mine had very good ground handling and no groundloop tendancies but I always flew off grass. Flew mine for a few years and sold it to a friend and it is still around and in good shape. Fly off grass, put a reliable engine on it. know how to use the rudder and rig it correctly and you should have no problems. Don
pittsdriver is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2003, 04:17 PM
  #3  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Gonna Use the Sporster

Have engine, muffler mods made, it runs great, many actual users of this engine have said this engine runsfine, quiet, pulls up to 13" props , not!!! junk. Gotta fly off paving, not aware of any grass IC fields in So CA area. ( I fly at El Toro MCAS).

I am not a beginner, this size and type of model are new to me.
(see my avatar Gee Bee E). I have been flying an electric converted Guillows 28" PT17 which is probably trickier than the big Camel to get and keep flying. Just looking for any specific advice on the VK Camel
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2003, 05:41 PM
  #4  
jetmex-RCU
Senior Member
My Feedback: (8)
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Houston, TX
Posts: 180
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

E-Challenged, I have to agree with you on the K&B .65. I have two of them and they are among the best running engines I have ever owned. The first one is ten years old and still has has excellent compression. It's retired because the little setscrew that holds the low speed assembly in backed out and disappeared and Mecoa no longer supplies parts for the front carb models. The second is on my Hawg now, continuing the work of the first one. I run a 12 ounce tank and 12-6 MA prop, she'll run about 20 minutes at half throttle, 10% nitro fuel. I've run a 13-6 MA 2-blade and 11-6 APC four blade props on that engine with no trouble at all, I guess your prop choice will depend on how you fly. I notice the 12-6 tends to keep my approach and landing speeds a little high, I might try a 12-5 or 13-5. I do run the pressure tap on mine--the newer engine (RNV) came with one installed but the older one did not. They both run just fine either way.

Never had a VK Camel, can't help you there. Looks like a neat project, though!

For those of you who are scared off by all the negative comments about these engines, it needs to be noted that they are aluminum on aluminum and break in is very important. You'll go through some glow plugs--this is normal. They are not screamer engines and shouldn't be run like they are. Run them a little on the rich side and you'll have an engine that will last you for quite a while.
jetmex-RCU is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2003, 06:08 PM
  #5  
pittsdriver
My Feedback: (7)
 
pittsdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Twin Falls, ID
Posts: 916
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

I was only relating personal experienc with these engines. Have run half a dozen of them for varios clubmembers and just could never get any of them to run reliably. E if yours runs good go for it. Try some kind of tailwheel on it and come up on power gradually on take off and it might work. I have built and flown several WW1 models and they just fly better off grass. My 1/4 scale D-7 that I'm flying now is a real *****cat off grass but impossible off pavement. I'm originaly from SoCal and flew at Mile Square, Anaheim Stadium and the resevoir top in Brea. This back in the 70s. With all the building down there your lucky to have a field. Do you know Ron Ragusa or Steve Killian? Both old friends that still fly El Toro occasionally. Don
pittsdriver is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2003, 07:21 PM
  #6  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default K&B Parts, Pasadena CA

If anybody needs parts, it seems that they have 'em for old and new engines. I've heard that K&B was going to continue building .65 Sportsters with remote needle valve and some changes in muffler mounting and screws.

K&B's ( not MECOA's ) parts phone number is (626) 359-9527, they are in Pasadena. CA. You can order by credit card over the phone.
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2003, 09:12 PM
  #7  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Pittsdriver

I used to fly with Anaheim R/C Club at Angels Stadium, Now Edison Field, Vic Browne is current pres. Mile Square was shut down three years ago, OC Supv C. Smith needed to make a 54th Golf Course to make money for county ( I wonder when it'll break even). Names sound familiar, don't fly very often/socialize much at El Toro. Old guys, mostly large ARF fliers, sit around and critique landings etc. lsame as they did at Mile Square only now we pay $160 plus AMA and OCMA member club dues. I fly electrics more often at Fairview Park/Estancia in Costa Mesa
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2003, 09:51 PM
  #8  
pittsdriver
My Feedback: (7)
 
pittsdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Twin Falls, ID
Posts: 916
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

I used to fly sailplane off the slope behind Estancia. I flew there almost every day there was wind. It was right on my way home. Don
pittsdriver is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2003, 02:49 AM
  #9  
Uncle Heinkel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 172
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

E-Challenged, the VK Camel is one of the best flying scale airplanes I've ever had.

It's retired for the time being but I plan to recover it one day and fly it again. It was literally my everyday airplane for about two years. I wore it out!

Mine had a Saito 50 four stroke.....enough power but no reserve....I'll put a 56 on it when I fly it again.

I don't remember the tank size but I do remember that there isn't much room for a big tank.

I also had no ground handling problems but I fly off of grass. A tailwheel would look awful but would probably help on pavement. On grass, it's no problem if you can use your rudder.
The rudder looks small but is very effective.

I put mini servos in the bottom wing for the ailerons as there was way too much slop and flexing with the bellcranks. If you do this, make sure to use metal gear servos as I had a couple stripped gears after a short time with the stock servos. Used Futaba 3101's and later Hitec HS-81 metal gear.

I set the wing incidences exactly the same as the plans.

If you land on the mains with any excess speed, it will probably nose over...I would suggest beefing up the rudder as I recall it got bashed a few times from nose overs when I was learning how to land it. (might not be as much of a problem on a paved runway, though)

Fortunately, if properly balanced and set up as per the plans, you can safely slow it down to a walk and 3 point it.

If you've never used turnbuckles before, make sure you safety wire them as Proctor says or else they will probably loosen and come apart in flight. Remember, the flying wires are functional on this plane. There's not much holding up the bottom wings if the wires come off.

Mine does all the basic maneuvers easily....rolls not very axial but it loops and spins easily and recovers quickly.

Have no fear, it's a great flyer, not intimidating at all.

H.
Uncle Heinkel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2003, 06:32 AM
  #10  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Thanks Unc

I may use swaged wire terminations instead of turnbuckles but it might be funner to be able to tune them with turnbuckles. Plane was covered with some kind of antique looking translucent fabric, need to patch that after installation of separate aileron servos.
May want to give it an OD or other military paint job.
Plane originally had single ailron servo probably with bad centering. I have an Eclipse 7 XMTR so I have a lot of options.


Thanks for the recommendations and reassurance.
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2003, 01:56 PM
  #11  
pittsdriver
My Feedback: (7)
 
pittsdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Twin Falls, ID
Posts: 916
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

You'll want to put turnbuckles on it as the wires stretch and constantly need adjustment. Don
pittsdriver is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2003, 09:04 PM
  #12  
Uncle Heinkel
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Honolulu, HI
Posts: 172
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

I agree with Pittsdriver....the wires will "adjust" and need tightening from time to time. Easier to trim it out, too. Better to use turnbuckles.....locking them is a must, though. Some turnbuckles have nuts to lock them...not sure that I would trust them....Proctor's turnbuckles don't and have to be wired.

All this talk about Camels has got me thinking about reviving mine! It's hanging from the ceiling right now.

H.
Uncle Heinkel is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2003, 11:53 PM
  #13  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Wire for Camel

While we're at it , what guage and type kind of wire do you recommend for bracing the Camel.

Also what .oz and type tank should I use given the cramped space , want to get 8-10 minutes with reserve at 1/2-3/4 throttle on the Sportster .65 if possible.

I plan on having to locate batteries, servos, etc as for forward as possible with aileron servos in bottom wing. If needed, I can put battery pack in cowl to get balance right.
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2003, 12:58 AM
  #14  
pipescs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lester, AL
Posts: 103
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

E Challenged do you have any photos of your camel?

I am just starting a VK Camel and would appreciate any guidance.

I am flying a vk Nieuport 17 and wonder if any one has flown them both and could give a comparison.

I do have the battery and throttle servo in the cowl of the Nieuport which helped with the balance

My Camels humble begining this last weekend
pipescs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-20-2003, 03:10 AM
  #15  
pittsdriver
My Feedback: (7)
 
pittsdriver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Twin Falls, ID
Posts: 916
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

I've had both and the Camel is by far the better flyer. Lots of roll rate with the four ailerons and nice landing speed with all the wing area. In order of best flying I would rate the Sopwith Pup and Camel at the top followed by the Fokker D-7 and D-8 then the Neiuport 28 and at the bottom would be the Neiuport 11,17 and the Fokker DR1. Just MHO Don
pittsdriver is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 12:39 AM
  #16  
pipescs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lester, AL
Posts: 103
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

This is good to hear

I am enjoying the Nieuport and just getting started with the Camel.

My current plan is to use part of an article from Model Aviation Magazine from March 1982 on replacing the push rods with control wires and mount the same engine the way I set up the Nieuport.
pipescs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 01:48 AM
  #17  
pipescs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lester, AL
Posts: 103
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

The Nieuport and my trainer that I used to get ready to fly it.

Actually the Gee Bee is relaxing to fly
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	80253_17867.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	33.8 KB
ID:	40436  
pipescs is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 01:56 PM
  #18  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK Camel Flight Readiness Review

I noticed that the Camel with K&B Sportster .65 was going to be tail heavy. I bought four 4400mah D-size nicads and built an L-shaped box for them out of 1/6 ply and epoxy glue, it fits around the engine mount. It now hangs a little nose down when balanced 3" back from top wing leading edge. After I rig the tail feathers it should balance perfectly. I will reinforce the rather flimsy box with fibreglass cloth on the outside to withstand sudden stops and hard landings.

I have the ABS cowl mounted on extension brackets to clear the Sportster .65, there is a 1/2 inch gap which should aid cooling but looks a little nasty. Maybe I'll make a new extended ring cowl after I get 'er flying. The 30-year old covering was in poor shape on the top wing so I recovered it with World Tex antique covering, (near perfect match with original covering). I'll give the wing top a coat of clear and it should match the aged/darker look of the rest of the model. I plan to make roundels for the wing. I have decided to use Berkeley Fire Line instead of metal rigging wire to avoid potential glithing of Hitec Supreme receiver.
I'm using turnbuckles made from mini nylon clevises and a screw with small washer soldered into the slot, will paint silver. Will add pics later.
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 02:42 PM
  #19  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Camel Pics 1

Shows battery box w/cells. I don't think sub-C's would have weighed enough for proper balance. I should be able to fly for about 4 hours with plenty of reserve.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	80344_13904.jpg
Views:	24
Size:	20.0 KB
ID:	40437  
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 02:49 PM
  #20  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Camel Pic 2

Here's a view of the elevator and rudder servo installation. 12 oz tank sits on a ply floor in a sandwich of foam rubber beneath servos. GWS mini servos mounted in bottom wings, direct pushrod to aileron, pushrod from lower to upper aileron. Plugged into channels 1 and 6 using Hitec Eclipse 7ch.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	80346_13904.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	14.5 KB
ID:	40438  
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 02:54 PM
  #21  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Camel Pic 3

View of receiver and throttle servo installation on bottom side of ply floor. Floor low enough for proper tank centerline in relation to needle valve. Just barely enough room for receiver in foam wrapper.
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	80348_13904.jpg
Views:	19
Size:	22.5 KB
ID:	40439  
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 02:59 PM
  #22  
E-Challenged
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Garden Grove, CA
Posts: 297
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default Camel Pic 4 Turnbuckles

These are just common nylon mini clevises, slot head screws have washer soldered into the slot. Will paint silver. I plan to make roundels for wing out of trim-film. Proctor doesn't supply extra roundels for the VK Camel Kit
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	80352_13904.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	6.9 KB
ID:	40440  
E-Challenged is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 04:05 PM
  #23  
John Cole
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Santa Rosa, CA
Posts: 442
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

Yep, roundels can be difficult to apply correctly if you have to make them yourself. I found that airbrushing them on works about the best, you just have to find low-tack masking film like frisket paper, etc. I cut my roundels from this paper using a sharp blade clamped into a drafting ink pen, and then using a drafting compass to make the circular cut.

John
John Cole is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-21-2003, 05:16 PM
  #24  
BobH
My Feedback: (2)
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Springfield, VA,
Posts: 7,899
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK Camel

Another approach to making Rondells is to put a drafting compass The type that has a pen on one end) in the center of where you want your circle to be. Put paint into the pen portion and draw your out line for the circle. Then simply paint the inside portion with a brush. Put heavy cardstock or balsa under the pointy end of the compass so as not to puncture the covering. You can buy Model Masters (or other brands) enamels or acrylics in the colors you need and your all set! Regards BobH.
BobH is online now  
Reply With Quote
Old 05-22-2003, 01:44 AM
  #25  
pipescs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Lester, AL
Posts: 103
Gallery
My Gallery
Models
My Models
Ratings
My Feedback
Default VK .60 Sized SW Camel

Major decals can also provide you the roundels in the sizes you need. They will only take checks or money order though. I used the water transfer type that they offer. I also used their Indian head for the fuselage on the Nieuport as the one from proctor cracked and split when I tried to use it.

I also had to mount as much as possible forward of the fire wall. A hitec servo is over the engine and the battery is foamed and taped in a slot next to the engine. I used a flex pipe muffler by Saito to keep the exhaust inside the cowl
Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version

Name:	80493_17867.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	30.4 KB
ID:	40441  
pipescs is offline  
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service