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Lozenge

Old 12-18-2007, 05:03 PM
  #26  
FokkerAce
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Default RE: Lozenge

wouldn't the 8.5" x 11" sizes be tedious, and expensive?

or can this method print larger?

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Old 12-18-2007, 07:05 PM
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Default RE: Lozenge

Joe, I just ordered a back issue of MAN with that article. Thanks for the tip.
When you said you tried printing on Koverall, what process did you use? I am thinking of trying dye-sub printing which I think can even go on mesh. I would be very interested in your experimentation with Koverall. The heat could be an issue too, making the fabric pucker up during printing.
Dave, that is a good point about the dope changing the colors. If Koverall (or anything for that matter) is used, doping it may be necessary. The poplin fabric that DPI will print on doesn't heat shrink so dope would be necessary to get it taut. I just bought some to do a test. I think it is butrate dope (Aerogloss flat clear - hope it works).
Dave, I think the model I am thinking of buying is the 1/6 scale version of your design, which was done at 1/4(?) Fabulous design!
Old 12-18-2007, 09:53 PM
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Default RE: Lozenge

The problem with polyester is most dyes do not stick to it. There is a type that is heat set. This brand wants you to tumble in the dryer for 20 min or ironed for 2-3 min. I am planning to make some silkscreens to try it out. One of the problems with silkscreening is if you don't pick the right dye it will be deposited on top like a tee shirt instead of soaking in. I am thinking of trying this product.

http://www.dharmatrading.com/html/en...lnav=dyes.html

I want to use Koverite, but if it won't work, I plan to to try it on silk.
Old 12-18-2007, 11:29 PM
  #29  
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Default RE: Lozenge

I'd be strongly tempted to use Solartex natural as the base for a lozenge painted model. In fact, I've started to think that this may be the only "color" I'll order from now on. In fact, I wish I had used this to cover all of my Snipe.

One idea I've played with is to make a set of "printing blocks" -- one for each color. The first step would be to glue the lozenge pattern on a set of 4 or 5 blocks (depending on with color-pattern you're doing). Then carve down all but one color of the lozenges -- so that the lozenges in this color are raised (by about 1/8" ). Do this for each color.

Next you'd "ink" the block and press it down on the fabric. After you've filled a row with one color let it dry and then do the same with another of the color blocks. This is essentially the method Japanese artists use to make woodblock prints. It would be easy enough to design in some kind of "registration" mark or device but even if it's not exactly right, that's ok because the original printed fabric was also slightly out of register.

Based on some preliminary experiments (using the woodblock carving tools my kids used in their Japanese school) this seems promising.

Old 12-18-2007, 11:32 PM
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Default RE: Lozenge

One problem though is that this would have to be printed before the fabric was added to the model. Of course.
Old 12-19-2007, 06:48 AM
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Default RE: Lozenge

I like this idea, how many yards would you be willing to do? lol

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Old 12-19-2007, 08:11 AM
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Default RE: Lozenge

Printing before covering is a good thing!
Old 12-19-2007, 08:35 AM
  #33  
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Default RE: Lozenge

Yeah, but applying heat to painted fabric might not be!

Here's a quicky test of the woodblock idea. The results are encouraging but my technique still need a lot of work. For example, I need to get a rubber roller to apply the paint evenly. For this test I just moved the pattern piece around in a drop of two of unthinned paint on a smooth piece of piy. Also the surface of the pattern wasn't absolutely smooth. Making the stamp from rubber material might also help.

Again the idea would be to have multiple raised areas and stamp large areas at one time. It would only be necessary to stamp an area as wide as the original fabric.
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Old 12-19-2007, 10:50 PM
  #34  
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Default RE: Lozenge

For my time and effort the most trouble free way I found to do a lozenge scheme was to make stencils out of a very thin type of clear mylar found in a good art supply store. I did a 1/4 scale Fokker D-VII for my first attempt ( 5 color). Each stencil was for a different color, and they were all keyed together so you could keep the next lozenge lined up in its proper place to paint it thus assuring proper overlap. Since this was a gas model, I used latex house paint sprayed with an airbrush. The paint dried quickly, and I even sped things up with a hair dryer. Very satisfactory results.
Old 12-19-2007, 11:34 PM
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Default RE: Lozenge

When I was a kid, the family did block printing Christmas cards each year. My sister and I did the design, and my dad carved the block; it was pretty neat. Block and silkscreen are going to be similar; one block or screen for each color. And in reality the real fabric was done like this except each color was on a different roller kind of like a continuous block. One thing I am after is not having the color on top of the fabric but in the weave. To do this It will probably be on a natural fabric but I hope Koverite will work because I covering with it; also I hope dope wont melt the colors too. I did not mind painting the lozenge, I just want to improve on it.
Old 12-19-2007, 11:38 PM
  #36  
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Default RE: Lozenge

ORIGINAL: John Baligrodzki

About 10 years ago I built a DVII from RCM plans. It was around 1/5th scale. For the lozenge the designer of this model. (Gordon Whitehead) also did a stencil for each color. You cut out each color and placed the darkest color stencil on the wing and painted them first. Then onto the next lightest color and so on. It was tedious but worked out quite well. I covered my model with 21st Century fabric, then painted it with water based enamals. I used polyurathane to fuel proof it for glow. Not sure if you could get a set of those stencils as RCM is no longer in publication. Not sure if I still have my set or not.

Hope this hleps as an alternative to rpinting fabric.

John B.
RCM may be not be publishing the magazine, but you can still order plans from them. In fact I received the very D-VII plans you mentioned yesterday. I haven't decided if I'll build from these plans, or from some other set.




Old 12-20-2007, 12:07 AM
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Default RE: Lozenge

Sense you have both now how do they compare in construction?
Old 12-20-2007, 12:58 AM
  #38  
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Default RE: Lozenge


ORIGINAL: TFF
When I was a kid, the family did block printing Christmas cards each year. My sister and I did the design, and my dad carved the block; it was pretty neat. Block and silkscreen are going to be similar; one block or screen for each color. And in reality the real fabric was done like this except each color was on a different roller kind of like a continuous block. One thing I am after is not having the color on top of the fabric but in the weave. To do this It will probably be on a natural fabric but I hope Koverite will work because I covering with it; also I hope dope wont melt the colors too. I did not mind painting the lozenge, I just want to improve on it.
Hmmm..now THAT'S an interesting idea: A roller! You'd need 4 or 5 rollers and then some kind of "registration track" to keep things lined up.

Old 12-20-2007, 09:40 AM
  #39  
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Default RE: Lozenge

ORIGINAL: destrat

For my time and effort the most trouble free way I found to do a lozenge scheme was to make stencils out of a very thin type of clear mylar found in a good art supply store. I did a 1/4 scale Fokker D-VII for my first attempt ( 5 color). Each stencil was for a different color, and they were all keyed together so you could keep the next lozenge lined up in its proper place to paint it thus assuring proper overlap. Since this was a gas model, I used latex house paint sprayed with an airbrush. The paint dried quickly, and I even sped things up with a hair dryer. Very satisfactory results.
I did it exactly the same way recently on my 1/4 scale D.VII. This method works very well.

Jim



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Old 12-20-2007, 09:44 AM
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Default RE: Lozenge

ORIGINAL: TFF

Sense you have both now how do they compare in construction?
I haven't had a chance to look at the plans other than a cursory once-over. (Yup, both pages are here, no smudges, etc.)

RCM has about 3 or 4 D-VII plans of various sizes.

Plan #368 was done in 1968. (59" wingspan) I do not have these plans yet. I will probably order them after Christmas.

Plan #996, the Gordon Whitehead plans, were done in 1987. They are for a slightly smaller plane (52.5" wingspan)

I think I may have some 1:4 scale plans, but I'm not sure. I went on a plan buying spree this spring, and I've forgotton all the plans I have.

I figure the D-VII is several builds away for me. But it's such a pretty plane.. I definetely wanted to get the plans, just in case they became unavailable.





Old 12-20-2007, 11:50 AM
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Default RE: Lozenge

T Moth, that is some beautiful work on your D-VII.
Old 12-20-2007, 12:06 PM
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ORIGINAL: jashley1

T Moth, that is some beautiful work on your D-VII.
Thanks! I'm in the process of putting on the rib tapes now.

Jim

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Old 12-20-2007, 10:32 PM
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Default RE: Lozenge

Nice job!
Old 12-21-2007, 12:51 PM
  #44  
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Default RE: Lozenge

I used the stencil method on my 1/9 scale D.VII. Yes, it's a lot of work, but heck, if it were simple, then ARF buyers would be doing it too, right?
You can dowload the patterns from http://www.aerodromerc.com/ . Click "decals" at the top of the page, and follow the links from there. The patterns are there in .dxf format too, so it is easy to re-size as necessary. Once I had the correct size, I printed the patterns on to the back of that clear film that stationary stores sell to protect book covers, maps, etc. Then I cut out the individual colors, and went at it. The end result is worth the effort!
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Old 12-21-2007, 05:39 PM
  #45  
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Default RE: Lozenge

Nice looking D.VII!. Is it electric?
That Aerodrome site is one of my favorites. Kurt Bengston seems to have a great eye for scale proportions and his designs are very appealing. On the other hand, I think he is colorblind or something. Those camo decals are not very close and, since it is such a lot of work doing a camo scheme, one might as well start with colors that are better. Another thing, the real camo wasn't done with black outlines.
Old 12-21-2007, 05:55 PM
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Default RE: Lozenge

ORIGINAL: allanflowers

Nice looking D.VII!. Is it electric?
That Aerodrome site is one of my favorites. Kurt Bengston seems to have a great eye for scale proportions and his designs are very appealing. On the other hand, I think he is colorblind or something. Those camo decals are not very close and, since it is such a lot of work doing a camo scheme, one might as well start with colors that are better. Another thing, the real camo wasn't done with black outlines.
Yes, it's electric. I scratch built it from Peter Rake plans about 3 years ago. It's a fantastic flyer. Very light weight. I went electric about 4 years ago. I love WW1 aircraft, and it is just so much easier to run electric than glow with all those wires, struts, etc. No vibration or oily mess. Personally, I'd rather have the sound of a 4-stroke, but you can't have everything.

Kurt certainly has some great designs. I've actually done the prototype build for two of his kits (57" Albatros C.III and 47" Dr.1), and am currently working on the 1/9 scale 41" Snipe.

As far as the colours go, I matched mine using other documentation, and just used the .dxf files for the lozenge pattern. Nothing like mixing 8 custom shades of dope! I have always found that computers are very unfriendly when it comes to reproducing colours accurately. It's like Chinese whispers, and the accuracy always suffers everytime you go from program, to download, to monitor or printing.
Old 12-21-2007, 06:07 PM
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Default RE: Lozenge

sweeet

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Old 12-22-2007, 09:21 AM
  #48  
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Default RE: Lozenge

Does anyone know of a single source offering reliable color chips/swatches of lozenge (and other WW 1) colors so exact matches can be custom mixed in the shop as needed? Better yet, do any model paint manufacturers sell accurate pre-mixed colors in usable quantities? (I think that some of Testor's Model Master line are at least very close, but MM only comes in 1/2 oz. bottles).
Old 12-22-2007, 09:36 AM
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Default RE: Lozenge

Caribefoto:

[unless I'm mis-informed[:@]]

Glenn Torrance Models has fabric in the colors, 1/4 & 1/3 scale, 4 & 5 color lozenge.....colors are matched to original fabrics.

Get samples, and match your colors to them.

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Picts are 'borrowed' from Glenn's webpage
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Old 12-22-2007, 09:42 AM
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Default RE: Lozenge

Here is an example of an original piece of fabric from a DVII. This is hanging at a local WWI museum and they have several other pieces of original fabric. This looks to be the light color from the bottom of the plane.
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