Bob Mitchell

Bill, I've looked through the first dozen or so replies here to get a feel for the comments before adding anything. The one thing that I've seen a couple of times is folks mixing the discussion to one of kits/scratch vs ARF rather than scale or degree of scale.

A discussion of ARF's or ARF "build" threads does not belong in a kit or scratch section, but there are scale or near scale ARFS and I don't see a problem with discussing those in a "scale" discussion section.

Obviously there are degrees of "scale" and one could take this to an absurd degree and want to discuss a Parkzone "scale" Corsair which I think almost no frequent poster here would really be interested in. The other side of the coin would be to discourage someone discussing his or her significantly modified/bashed Top Flite P-51D ARF that might easily be mistaken for a scale kit build.

So, within reason I don't see a problem in discussing ARF's in a scale section.........as long as the discussion is SCALE related. That's the key, I think. IOW, detailing the cockpit area or adding weathering......yes. How to mount the servos or trim the cowl.......probably not.

Bob Mitchell

Well, it's poorly done scale model. I guess the question you've got to ask yourself is at what point do scale "mistakes" disqualify a particular model from being identified as a "scale" model? 30 different people would probably come up with 30 different definitions. It would probably boil down to the Supreme Court justice who said he couldn't define porn but knew it when he saw it.

I'd have a hard time showing up at a scale contest with something like that unless there was a specific category for such.

carlosponti

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theres two sides of this discussion is this a forum for discussion or grading by ones peers. I feel its necessary to allow arfers in here if its for the purpose of discussion someone may want to make their arf more scale and have questions. if this is for the grading by ones peers then certainly not. if the latter is true then there better be prizes involved. arfs should be welcome here just as kits as opposed to scratch building. if someone is here to post bragging about their arf scale then by all means chastise away. but if they just want to know how to make theirs more scale for the enjoyment of it all then let them. now a arf only belongs in a scale model competition if the only other planes its competing against are arfs not scratch builds or kits builds that way its not apples and oranges.

Mode One

Some people also feel strongly about defining what scratch building is, that the act of scratch building must include the design process for the airplane! Or, that a truely extrodinary scale example must be a duplicate of the real, right down to the complete scale construction of parts, which likely will only be seen if the plane splatters itself across the tarmack. I have to say I don't see any reason that propulsion systems divide us. They are simply a means of powering the airplane through the air.

We do seem to insist that we catagorize ourselves into small elite groups and I am as guilty of this, as anyone!

caribefoto

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Perhaps the scale model aircraft forum with as many, or more, participants as any other scale forum is RCSB.com (R. C. Scale Builder). Scale, or close to scale, ARF's are not ostrasized in their forum discussions. The criteria on their site seem to be the accuracy of resemblance to a real plane, not the method of it's construction. The degree of scale is recognised in the various categories for competition, but the general term scale has wide latitude. Maybe we should have separate forum topics for scratch built, fiberglass "kits", kit built. and ARF's (cutting the pie into way too many pieces IMHO).........John

gjmjoe017

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The title of this forum is "RC Scale Airplanes".To me that qualifies any Scale Airplane to be in here.What is a scale airplane?Any plane that is a replica of the real thing.Building scale planes is obiviously a totally different thing and we have kit building and scratch building forums in here.I started a tread on the ARF forum for "Kit Bashed ARF'S with Scale Detail,"and got some pretty amazing arf's that had been transformed into some nice scale planes.I think really nice scale detailed ARF's can compete in the sportsman class at scale meets.I think what a lot of people have a problem with are guys that take a stock arf and enter it in a scale competition with no mods or additional scale work done.Bill (Stickbuilder)and I have talked about this before as it applies to my Bulldog II project which is a kit bashed GP Pitts but with a lot of mods and completely recovered and changed from the original.I certainly don't consider it on the level of a kit or scratch built kit by a master builder and would never try and pass it off as such.I'm a scale nut like all of us on here and enjoy seeing any example of a nice scale model no matter how it started out.I say arf's are ok here in this forum,especially the ones with some added detail.
Joe

abufletcher

Honestly, I can't recall a single thread in the past few months that I found objectionable. Sure there have been threads about models that I didn't personally find interesting, but nothing that I felt needed to be moved.

jtisch

Really, is this such an issue? The plane I mentioned previously ( DVII) could have been listed in the ARF, Giant Scale, Scale, and Warbird columns, in theory ( not to mention engine conversions ). If I put a GWS Tiger Moth in this column as the latest and greatest scale model, feel free to ignore it

J

LDM

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Attachments

Ram-bro

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if it aint broke, don't fix it..........

bogbeagle

It kinda pains me to say it, but I do think that ARFs belong in the scale forum.

That said, I only have admiration for the guy who has added value to his model...and that admiration is in proportion to the added value.

There's no honour in winning a competition by flying an off-the-shelf model, IMO.

But, the judge is looking for scale fidelity, rather than evidence of the builder's artistry.

What would happen if, say, 10 competitors arrived at a Scale comp and each man had the exact same model (ARF)? How would the comp be judged?
Well, I suppose that the only judgement could be made on the basis of flying skills. If that were the case, then the competition may as well be re-labelled as a Scale Comp (flying only)...and I think that this would de-value the concept of competition.

LDM

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I don think the question can be asked in a simple format . Example , first you have to define scale , we have all seen differnat versions from exact scale , standoff scale , fun scale ect . I know scale is scale and that is it , but we as a rc community have allowed other types of scale to creep into everything .
IF an ARF were to hit the same level of a scratch built in exact scale , then the answer is simple -yes , but if we are talking about an ARF with no interior , control horns exposed , wrong size wheels , wrong size pilot , paint is off , marking are decals and not painted and on and on and on , well that may better be served under "fun scale " in arfs or warbirds ect .
I was trying to post some pics of the long "Luke Zolner and Hal Humphry build on the CMP hellcat , the planes started as arfs but would 100% qualify for standoff scale and with proper documentation "scale" , the planes lack the proper airfoil , other then that , they are about 80% correct baring home made main retract , but the home made tail retract is pretty damm close .
I think there is a big misconception on arf and bashing arfs , many arfs are a simple head start to what will be a very nice competitive model , others will be exactly what they were meant to be a quick way to get a fun looking plane into the air vs a boxey trainer .
Now if you want to keep the scale forum pure , perhaps it would serve those concerned to have sub categorys in the scale forum .
This would also expose arfs guys who bash planes to get advice from the scale guys who dont visit the arf forums .
Example of sub forums in scale
A)scratch build exact scale /master scale
B)Standoff scale -1)scratch built 2)kit built 3)arf
C)ARFconversion /bashed scale
Perhaps I am splitting hairs in some categories to others , but I think you get the point , and (A) would be left for the planes truely build from scratch and meet the criteria of scale

Avaiojet

Caribefoto,

Did you know this website, RCSB.com, is for sale? Only $5K.

About ARF's.

I've seen ARF's altered or bashed that make great looking presentable scale airplanes or at least close. Especially those that get completely re-covered detailed and painted. Credit should be given to modelers just for the attempt alone. I'm actually gearing up to bash a H9 Corsair and turn it into a F2G. Actually number 57. I believe the thread is in Warbirds, but should probably be in RC Scale?

Many years ago, I had a Piper 180. No, not the model. I flew into an airport where they were holding a regional Scale competition in MA someplace, maybe Westover. I don't remember the actual airport because it was mid 80's and besides, I don't even care. If I made the entry, my log book would have the date, year and airport. I actually taxied over to the area where the event was held. I was paid little or no attention, as if I wanted any. Well, maybe a little, it was a good entrance.

Anyway, I was talking to the builder of what I considered a super scale model, in fact incredible and possibly the nicest one there. At least in my opinion which, obviously, means actually nothing. That everyone can agree with. Well, this modeler, told me he wasn't going to win the event. And he was right.

The model which actually won, and this gut picked it out BTW, belonged to someone with recognition. Gee. The rivets on this model were so obvious, that if scaled up to actual size, would probably be .5" high on the real aircraft if not more. I believe the model was a Warbird. Remember, this was many years ago, when guys used straight pins for simulating rivets. I guess back then they didn't care if the rivets were actually flush or not. Rivets a rivet!. OK, some guys used glue dabs. Today they buy cut rivets I make out of vinyl. Go figure.

But, I'll never forget how disappointed the other modeler was. His efforts were not rewarded and his model was more to true scale.

I hope he's reading this.

Thing is, bashing an ARF could be a good beginning for any modeler interested in developing scale building abilities or skills. Certainly a good stepping stone, and, as we've seen in some cases the results are great looking scale models.

Charles

sebo

I've done what you have suggested (2 times). It takes an awful lot of time and most people just don't have that time.
I submitted both planes and plans to MAN and had them published. The reward was a check for $300.00 and the thrill of seeing my name and articles in print.
Would I do it again??????????? Mabee. I want to scratch build an A3D Douglass Skywarrior in their photographic version.
Don't know if I want to go small (6-8 foot span) electric or a larger with real jet engines.
Time will tell as well as money.

caribefoto

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Avaiojet wrote: "Did you know this website, RCSB.com, is for sale? Only $5K."

Where did you get this information? ..........John

caribefoto

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No reply? ..........John

sebo

Why are you asking me? sebo

caribefoto

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I wasn't, I was asking Aviojet...............John

Cub_Boy

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Guys,

Here are my 2 cents worth on this subject...

This thread could go on until the end of time; everyone has to start somewhere and ARF/ARC/Highly Pre-Fabbed Kits such as Composite ARF, Yellow Aircraft and Iron Bay (formerly Byron) just to name a few certainly fit into this category. These days I think it is a very rare instance where someone starts out buliding from a box/bag of sticks (remember I said rare as I am sure there are exceptions). We need to NOT worry about the origins of the end product; we should focus on helping others grow their skills and empower their passion. This is the reason why the US Scale Masters Association encourages Fun Scale Categories at regional qualifiers, this helps to encourage those who are just starting out to participate in our wonderful world of scale.

Most people are too intimidated by all of this to begin with; if we shun them because they are starting out with Pre-fabbed subjects then WE are the ultimate loser in this game. We should be seeking ways to help them grow by sharing our love of scale and knowledge of detail with them. Teach someone how to detail, explain how to build a new feature for their plane, explain how they can take it to the next level. Once they get the experience and knowledge of how to make their own parts that will translate to taking on more difficult projects such as a more traditional kit.

We will NEVER go back to the time when the only thing in the world to make a Scale Airplane from is a box of sticks (I know that is a painful reality to some out there); the world has changed and continues to do so. We MUST find a way to incorporate these changes into our sport or the opportunity will pass us by. Attract and encourage new people to join us and share our passion for Scale, use whatever tools we can to help them... and folks... ARFs are indeed just one tool in our collective toolbox. We really need to STOP being so closed minded about this subject; the real answer is to embrace this stuff and encourage those who use ARF/ARC and Highly Pre-Fabbed Kits as a starting platform to continue participating and growing their knowledge, skills and experience.

This Forum is RC Scale Aircraft; if someone is wanting to know how to detail up the ARF they just purchased can't you see that this is a GOOD THING? Can't you see that they are reaching out wanting to learn? Would it hurt anyone to just set the egos aside and give them an opportunity start on their path?

I have to say my vote is to help those who are seeking help...

Thank you for reading this

abufletcher

2 cents? I think you greatly undervalue your contribution, sir! [sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=thumbs_up.gif][sm=thumbs_up.gif]

Dai Phan

My Feedback: (2)

Hi all,

From time to time, I still hear the comments from kit builders who constantly bash ARFs and the people who buy and fly them. To their minds, real men built or scratch built. ARFers are for the weak, the ones who are coward enough to have other people built for them, the ones who couldn't hack it and the ONLY way to scale is to built from kit. Anything else short is rubish. Trust me, that kind of destructive mentality is still out there and I see it all the time. What a pity. DP

LDM

My Feedback: (15)

Yes agree 100% , that is the mind set of many and I personally have locked heads with those individuals .However as an Advid basher of ARfs kits , I must say I dont agree nor do I think its fair that a scratch build or kit built plane should have to compete with an ARF or bashed arf . I did not know that occured in any event but it soulds like it does .
I think there should be merit and points awared and separation for scatch build vs kit built and the two vs bashed ARfs .
It matter of the sweat equity that goes into the build in addition to scale equity .
I know , I know that bashed arfs can take a long time to finish but there still should be merit for a model that is built from scratch .
Again that is why I think both in this forum and contest , we could simply have differant segments of competition and welcome all the levels

Stickbuilder

That's the way that some of the top level contests are done. ARF's can compete, but not in the top levels of the competition. I see nothing wrong with a, "Builder of the model rule," in the top levels. If you only want to fly, then you compete in the lower classes.

Bill, Waco Brother #1

abufletcher

There are times that I wish that as a hobby we were still back in the 1950's with just a bunch of guys, who love airplanes, scratch-building whatever they could with the materials on hand and getting models in the air. I long for the time when RC was still just a hobby and not "an industry." I long for the hobby shops of my youth that were a fascinating blend of balsa stuff and trains and chemical sets instead of the "toy store" like atmosphere and product range of most modern "hobby shops."

MikeChilson

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Nice...
I love this place.. NO.. RCSB is NOT for sale. He was talking about the domain RSCB.COM.

Mike Chilson
Owner/Founder
RCSCALEBUILDER.COM