Airwarrior

I do hope you plan to try flying it again. That model is far too awesome to have it simply sit around without once having a good flight on it.

abufletcher

What's scale flight for the Curtiss Flyer?

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

On May 29, 1910, the Hudson Flier flew from Albany to New York City with a refueling stop in Poughkeepsie. That's a total of about 150 miles. A record for the time. It is one of the reasons why this plane is so historic but little known because it was Curtiss, not the Wrights.

After further consideration, I have decided NOT to retire the plane to the Glenn Curtiss Museum in Hammondsport, at least not yet. The damage was not significant.

The problem here is that there is nothing to go on regarding control surface throws. Conventional knowledge doesn't apply. I (and others) were very concerned about its sensitivity in pitch. The full scale replica is also pitch sensitive. Ithink my mistake was being too conservative. My intent was to just get it off the ground and put it right back again. It is the ground that can hurt plans. Staying as far away from it as possible until you know what to do is the best strategy.

What Ishould have done is let the plane completely lift off and gain altitude and work out any issues. The test flight plan for full scale doesn't necessarily apply to models. After the high speed take off runs where I found the plane to be stable and controllable, I should have then just taken it up for a flight at an altitude where the initial sensitivies wouldn't matter much.

jjscott

Chevelle, what a beautiful job you have done on the Hudson Flier. I just found this thread and am so impressed with your efforts in bringing this airplane to life. Even after all the strides made in perfecting radio control flight, it is nice to see there are still some pioneers out there pushing the envelope.

Jim

buzzard bait

Chevelle, it's such an unusual configuration I'm not surprised if it takes a crash to develop a strategy for successful flying. I even found that for my old diesel powered VK Nieuport. I had to see what happened, and then think it through afterward. Then came success.

Besides having two elevators, your Hudson flyer also has those between-the-wing ailerons. Frank Tallman, in "Flying the Old Planes", seems to suggest they are a bit like putting on air brakes. When deflected, they create a lot of drag; they probably stall more easily than conventional ailerons too. Of course, that could mean losing control in a turn.

I imagine you need some really wide open space for the test flights, with corn or hay crops all around. If the only way to get it back and set it down safely is to make a complete circle then it puts on the pressure to use those ailerons to make turns that it might not handle well. Of course, the full size worked OK, but on the small one I wonder if those ailerons could run into Reynolds number effects. It would just be nice to be able to test really gentle turns and get up pretty high to test steeper ones.

Just getting it so beaufifully built and making a hop was a magnificent achievement. Thanks for keeping us posted.

Jim

TFF

The tricky part with flying a plane with a fully moving forward elevator is at any point you can stall the elevator. Just moving the elevator can put it at the critical angle of attack. I watched a video years ago about a guy flying a Wright B replica; he said that his elevator input was limited to his feeling the stall buffet. He had to skid the plane in big circles to turn it because you can't rack it over and add elevator because of the stall. When he moved the elevator it was in quick jabs and neutralized; like Morris code or an old reed RC set. I dont think he banked more than 5-10 degrees.
It is an awesome airplane you have built.

ARUP

My little (48" mainplanes- see it in my Gallery) sport scale 'Headless' Pusher was very docile and handled aileron input with nice authority. It only had an 11oz wing loading so that prolly figured to advantage. The only problem 1st flight was that the engine thrust wasn't quite right. Adding power mushed it downward. I put shims under the fwd lugs to create upthrust which cured the problem. My Bristol Boxkite flew very well its first and only flight (I erroneously put the c.g. at leading edge of wing) considering it was very nose heavy. What I did was limit the foreplane elevator travel relative to the rear elevator (~1:2). It is ready for more test flights. You might consider similar experimentation with your Hudson Flyer. What a great airplane model! I was shocked to read that the Proctor wheels folded! I have some of those but I took that heavy solid 'O' ring off and put tubing on the rim.

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

You guys are great as were the people at Rhinebeck.  At least for me, this endeavor has generally been a solitary one and the result at Rhinebeck wasn't exactly as anyone would have hoped.  It would be easy to say that it isn't worth it to do any more than was done and hang it up.

What has been great and a real help has been the support and encouragement that I have received in spite of the outcome.  That in large part is why the Hudson Flier won't yet be retired to the museum.

With that said, now you all get to play NTSB investigator.  Here is the YouTube video of the "accident" along with plenty of slow motion.  There are some of my observations in the video but feel free to comment on why you feel it ended the way it did.  I figure the more input I get the more I can do to make the next flight more successful.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HN7k5b_SE5w[/youtube] 

ARUP

Here's my $0.02. The foreplane isn't 'loaded' enough with rearward upthrust (an imaginary line thru the engine centerline should show the front of the engine higher than the rear or propellor end). Move c.g. fwd. Make rear elevator have more travel than the front one. What a beautiful airplane! At least the little pilot didn't get crushed by the engine which was the usual occurrence with 'pushers'!

TFF

The full up has the elevator stalled. On a conventional plane the main wing stalls and the tail is sill flying. This thing is backwards and the real planes of this type killed a lot of people. I would limit the down elevator to a degree below level flight; you are going to want to float down with power reduced not down elevator. I think you would have been fine if you did not arrest the climb and had gotten altitude to get a little stick time. If it is not stalling in the climb, keep going. You might try trimming it like an old rudder only plane; always in a slight climb and use turns to loose altitude and reduce power too. Pou deCeil's, the French homebuilts, have the same problems and they limit the forward elevator control.

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

I am of the same mindset.  Too much down travel on the elevator.  You are right that descending can (and probably should ) be done by "less flying" than by attitude adjustment.  Right again in that "if you're climbing (and not stalling), you're not crashing."  No shame in not flying level until the kinks get worked out.  It looked to be a long way from stalling so it was not prudent of me to try to attain level flight so soon.

The CG is already just ahead of where the CG is described in the historical text which is 40% of the cord.  Yes, 40% and that is right where the main spar is.  The full scale replica flew at a great attitude with the CG as described.  The CG on my plane is just forward of that point by about .25"  I am hesitant to move it more forward than that right now. 

Another note, the rear horizontal stabilizer is fixed.  It does not move with the front canard.  In 1911, Curtiss moved the elevator to the rear be kept a front single plane.   In an accident, that front section was broken and thus was born the Curtiss "Headless" Pusher.

So the first take away here is to definitely limit the downward travel of the elevator to just below neutral.

TFF

To me it looked like it had plenty of power, and it looked like it was accelerating going up. It also looked pretty stable when no control inputs were going on so i think the CG is flyable. I think it is not going to fly like anything you have flown before so I think being adaptable is the best thing. You could always build yourself a trainer something like a 2 meter glider with a power pod and everything turned around canard style and make the canard full moving. give it all the placements of the wings and tails but just make it simplified.

abufletcher

TFF really hits the nail on the head. To fly a model like this (or the real think for that matter) the pilot needs to UN-learn almost everything he knows. It's bound to be very similar to doing that very first RC flight all over again...without anybody there to guide you.

Still there must be several models of the Hudson Flier (or similar types) out there, so there's got to be some experience available.

buzzard bait

It all happens so fast. Between the time you decided the climb was too steep and the time it hit the ground was only a small fraction of one second. As a pilot, it doesn't give you much chance. Good thing for the video. But I felt for you when I saw the pieces come off.

Take off was nice and smooth. I think that the CG is not too bad, otherwise it would have bucked up when you gave up elevator for take off. But the CG might be pretty close to the neutral point, making it hard to avoid over control. Back in 1910 people didn't know much about optimizing the CG, so I wouldn't put too much stock in how the original was balanced. Furthermore, we're not sitting in our airplanes, so we don't detect what the plane is doing until much later than a full scale pilot would. On top of that, everything happens faster because of scale effects. For those reasons, I'd be inclined to go a little bit further forward on the CG. It looks to me like it would make it a little easier to control.

I wouldn't assume the elevator was stalled. The plane pitched down in response to down elevator. It just did so much more than you expected. To me it looked like there was no time for your 'up' correction to help. I think the controls were too sensitive in pitch.

I do agree that things might have gone better if the plane had been allowed to climb out. With the CG a little more forward, climb out would be a little shallower, and probably more controllable.

Thanks for sharing the experience, tough as it is.

Jim

ARUP

Shame on me for not knowing the rear stab had no movable elevator[sm=red_smile.gif]. I look at this plane somewhat as a canard more so, now. Have you calculated where the c.g. is relative to the nuetral point? The c.g. needs to be ahead of the n.p. and for an airplane this size it might be 2-3"(?). Make sure it has a good 3 or 4 degrees of 'downthrust' or pusher upthrust- whatever the term is! That will push the foreplane down. Then try about 3 degrees positive on the elevator. Is the elevator a flat plate or is it undercambered? Flat plates as control surfaces are 'all or none' in these small scales. Maybe you could work a gyro into the elevator mix, somehow, to dampen attitude changes.

Watching the fullscale Curtiss at Rhinebeck I noticed that the pilot looks as if he is constantly holding 'down' force on elevator as if the airplane is 'rigged' to constantly climb. That's where I get my inspiration for these 'hints' above.

TFF

What did you make the brackets out of?

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

All the black bits are made from brass, either tubing, strips or sheet. Here are some very early pictures.

TFF

Really nice.

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

Itook a lot of video of the various stages of design, fabrication and assembly. I have aspirations of someday offering some of the more rare subjects that are done usually as scratch builds in some form of a kit that would include the laser cut wood and the water jet cut metal pieces. My initial thinking was that the Hudson Flier would be of little interest but taking the video would be good practice for when I did it for my first real subject. (That first subject is planned to be the 1910 AVROTriplane. More conventional.) The idea being that Iwould provide CADmodels and videos to assist the builder.

Anyway, here is how I did the front fork, one of the more difficult pieces to make but now that I know how to do it, takes just a few hours. (Are you paying attention ARUP?)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipG7BOCAD58[/youtube]

buzzard bait

Thanks very much for that excellent tutorial. If anyone can direct me toward more info on the kind of metal working we need for our models, book or video, I would be very grateful. There was a time when you could take night classes on this sort of thing, but it doesn't seem to be offered anymore.

Jim

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

To be honest with you Jim, other than some electrical soldering experience, I knew nothing about this sort of thing before I started this project. It is not really difficult at all. You certainly need a good mini-torch, plenty of silver solder, and flux (an absolute must). I prefer the paste but on occasion the liquid is the better choice.

There are three keys to have the job come out right. The first is to make sure all the parts are clean. I scuff them up with the Scotch pad and wipe them with alcohol before soldering. The second is holding and mating of parts. If you notice in the video, there are no "butt" joints. Holes are drilled into one part to mate with the other. Quick jigs are also a huge help. Doing a little planning ahead to think through the best way to get straight and true parts is very helpful. Many times it is better to make a bigger part and cut it afterward. The front fork is a good example. Making it one piece and cutting into left and right was better than trying to make separate left and right pieces. Lastly, solder is not glue. Getting BOTH the pieces warm enough to melt and flow the solder is critical. That is why on this project I used the mini-torch almost all the time. An iron heats up too small an area. It is much better for electrical work than this sort of thing.

Try it. It is actually one of the more fun parts of the project. You can see the results of your efforts very quickly. Most of the parts for this plane can be made in just a few hours. It is not as hard as it looks.

Another option is to drive up to Rochester and I'll show you

ARUP

Pretty neat vid! Like you, I really enjoy silver soldering. I also 'jig' everything. I always wet the wood jig took minimize flames!!! My Bleriot XI and Fok EIII parts were made on jigs, too. Potentially having parts waterjet cut would really speed the fabrication process. I was looking at photo etching but haven't taken the plunge. I am not much of a computer whiz so building files to print part outlines for the start of these processes is my Achilles Heel[&o]. Thanks for sharing!!!

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

I did a lot of investigating when it came to the metal parts.  The tubing and pieces that can be made from strips are pretty straight forward.  The two things that concerned me the most were the Curtiss logo and all the bracing wire brackets.  The first is complex but there is only one.  (It just HAD to look good!)  The second is very simple but there are a lot.

Photoetching won't work for this project.  The scale it too big and etching parts at the needed thickness is not the best way to go.  Laser cutting won't work either.  Most metals are fine for laser cutting but brass it too reflective.  Not enough energy gets adsorbed into the brass to be effective at cutting.  Plasma cutting is fine but too imprecise.  Too hard to hold the needed dimensions.  (OK for full scale though.)  That leaves water jetting.  There are various places that provide various precisions.  .003-.005 is the range you can expect.  The place that did mine was more on the .005 end and they worked out just fine.

As you know ARUP, I will be ordering more sets of parts and will look into maybe getting them made on the more precise end of the range.  I have revised the files for both the laser (wood) and water jet (brass) and may send them out as soon as next week.  No promises though.   

Chevelle

My Feedback: (2)

A Proposition....

In spite of me trying to talk him out of it, ARUP wants to build a Hudson Flier. Inever intended this to be a kit offering (unlike my next project) but Iguess it is reasonable to assume that there is more than one nut like me out there.

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For anyone else that is interested, I can provide tons of pictures, lots of drawings, a viewable CAD model (you will need a free viewer), videos on how I made many of the parts (see a previous post), the laser cut wood parts, and the waterjet cut brass parts. I am in the process of getting new quotes for the wood and brass parts. I just want to do this once and the price is greatly affected by the number of sets Iorder.

Even so, be forewarned. This is not a project for the faint of heart. I am still trying to get this thing to fly right. I am not offering this as a money making opportunity but building this plane isn't an inexpensive proposition. I don't have final costs yet but the laser and waterjet parts alone will probably run over $500. (Those parts make up about 80% of the plane. The rest is dowels, brass tubing, common basswood sticks and covering.) You'll still have lots to do like making the fue tank and radiator and undercarriage braces and ...

I will offer as much support as I can, mostly through my website (www.vintageaerocraft.com) through the forum that I will be adding over the next week or so.

PMme if you would like to join in this insanity.

ARUP

Hi Chevelle- I'm not insane- just a little crazy! [sm=spinnyeyes.gif]