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CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

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Old 10-12-2012, 01:56 PM
  #2501
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Matz - 1/6 plan of the LVG VI by Frank Mizer - I have the plan set too, they are an excellent set of plans with lots of detail. I too want to model this airplane too some day but can't decide on the scale 1/6 1/5 or even 1/4. I would like to model Eleynor 4 4802/18.

A while ago I started a build on the Benz Bz4u engine at 1/6 scale but stopped because I think I would like to go to a larger scale. You can see it at [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_10230205/mpage_1/key_/tm.htm]Benz Bz IV - 1/6 scale engine scratch build [/link] Maybe some reference info for you.

I agree the Brussels site is excellent- I've drooled over it for hours!
Keep us posted

Bri
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:08 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Don - those little brass hinges look great! What's the secret for cutting brass?
Are your brass strips that go around the tubes pre cut widths (eg from brass strip at the correct width and just cut to length)?
How do you get such clean cuts on the tubing? Do you cut them on a band saw with a metal cutting blade or do you use a pipe cutting tool?

Looking good!
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:38 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

I cut long strips of brass from a 0.3mm sheet. I just used ordinary scissors. Then I cut 10 rough lengths and wrapped them around the 5mm brass tube. After silver soldering the brass straps in place, I used a Dremel "thin cut" metal cutting disk to cut out the individual hinges. After that, each hinge gets a careful filing and polishing. By the way, regular (electrical) solder would be fine for this application, but you'd have to be extra careful about cutting the tubing because the heat from cutting might cause regular solder to melt.

Matz, yes, I would imagine there are a number of inaccuracies to the Mizer LVG VI plans...just like there are problems with the Wylam and Nieto drawings. For all its beauty, the Mizer drawings are still model plans and not technical drawings. And even technical drawings are rarely 100% accurate. But, that's half the fun!
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Quote:
ORIGINAL: gabriel voisin
I've found that the plan has a lot of mistakes and I want to build not so.
Can you tell us some of the mistakes you have found so far?
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:46 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Yes, yes, out with it Matz! Please tell us LVG admirers what pitfalls we need to avoid so we don't make the same mistakes when it's our turn...

LOL
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Old 10-12-2012, 02:57 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

I spent almost 30 years admiring (worshiping?) the Nieto Fokker DrI drawings. I had ordered large sheet copies from the Smithsonian when I was 12 years old! So I was a bit horrified, when, as an adult, I started to hear rumored complaints that they weren't 100% perfect. [X(] It seemed almost sacrilegious!

(BTW, I've already decided that if I were to make a 1/4 scale LVG myself, I would just HAVE to devise a way to make my own lozenge fabric...for the same reasons you're making your own instruments.)
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:19 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Matz, wenn es Dir einfacher ist, kannst Du die Abweichungen des LVG Bauplan von Mizer hier auf Deutsch beschreiben, und ich werde sie ├╝bersetzen.
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:38 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build



Hello together,
special thanks to Teus,....really fantastic side and in Germany.

Don and Bri,...yes i will post the differences, but at first I will study all photos very well .... I got 470 pieces
I didn't say that the plan is not good, but he is not correct.
One thing I can say with safety, there are aany wrong things on the wings, tail and metal fittings.

Bri,....you have the plans also? Please say me,... which material for the longerons and the frames?
I find absolutely nothing in the Mizer drawings.......and thanks because the Benz, but I have the original Benz blueprints.

Don, which material you have usedfor your Albatros? (Longerons and frames)

Matz

Danke Don für das Angebot, aber es geht schon .
Das Problem ist mehr, dass der Plan recht unübersichtlich gehalten ist und Materialangaben für viele Bauteile gar nicht angegeben sind.
Ich möchte das Modell so nicht bauen, die bautechnischen Abweichungen sind mir zu groß.
Der Rumpfrücken mit dem Drehkranz ist an der originalen Maschine komplett höher gelegt und nicht nur ein Ring aufgelegt.
Auch ist die Tragflächen sindnur annähernd so gebaut wie Sie wirklich waren, das gleiche gilt für das Leitwerk undein paar andere Dinge noch.
Die Motorenverkleidung möchte ich komplett aus Metal herstellen, ach ja,....die Fahrwerksstrebenhaben auch keine Materialangaben.
Ich glaube die Zeichnungen entsprechenmehr dersilhouette in denWindsock Datafiles.

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Old 10-12-2012, 03:42 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Matz, I'll have a look at my copy of the Mizer plans a bit later. Now it's time to go fly!
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Old 10-12-2012, 03:59 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

now it is 2 o'clockin thenight.... I do not want to fly now.

see you later,....
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Old 10-12-2012, 04:03 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Don - did you get some counselling?[&:]LOL just messing with you
I've had Sopwith Snipe drawings laying around for years as well as the Nieto drawing... I think most of us are in the same boat on this.

That's just the most frustrating thing with this scale business though isn't it? You go to a lot of trouble to find accurate documentation, design or order plans, fork out a huge chunk of $, spend hundreds of hours cutting wood and building your model only to find out that some or several things are not correct and it's way too late to change things... Or like you, the bubble is burst after years of blistful thinking you've got the best of the best and all you have to do is build it.

I guess it's better to assemble documentation, build strictly to the documentation, and never look back. Hopefully you are the only expert at the field with respect to your particular aircraft. Once my scale model is finished I put on my rose-coloured-glasses and fly around in ignorant bliss. However each new build project brings along that attempt to better oneself and build even more accurate scale models.

But yes I hear you. I hate to start a build only to find out my documentation is off. I hope this doesn't happen with my Morane Saulnier. Good thing the Casque de Cuir association has done much of the footwork because many of the 3-views I've found are erroneous in one if not several aspects.

1/4 scale LVG - now I'm drooling again as you well know... we will certianly have to find/create a way to produce the lozenge fabric. In fact at this scale I think printed silkspan would easily adhere over koverall. We will have to check that out at some future time.

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Old 10-12-2012, 07:14 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Matz, I've had a quick look at the LGV plans and you're right that there aren't many construction notes at all. And you're also right that in terms of the basic interior structure Mizer uses fairly traditional model building techniques, instead of going for a "scale miniature" effect. On my CI we also used 6x6mm balsa longerons for the rear half, but the forward half was built is a novel slot together matter. Take a look at the first couple of pages of this thread. Balsa is fine, since the actual strength comes from the ply sheeting (as per the original). On my prototype kit all of the sheeting is 0.4mm ply. But if I were to do it again, I would use 0.4mm in in front and 0.8mm from the observer's cockpit back to the tail. The formers on my CI are either 1/8 (3mm) birchwood ply or liteply.

I suppose what I ultimately love about these Mizer plans is their artist hand-drawn quality. CAD plans just look so boring. The problem with wanting to go "scale all the way" (which is what my heart always wants to do) is that you have to forget about any model plans and you have to start with technical drawings. But so few good technical drawings actually exist. I've got some good drawings of the FE2b but I'd say they are still only about 70-78% complete.

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Old 10-12-2012, 07:19 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
Don - did you get some counselling?[&:]LOL just messing with you
Yes, it's called an hour at the flying field. Much cheaper than therapy and keeps me at least partially sane.

Quote:
I guess it's better to assemble documentation, build strictly to the documentation, and never look back.
What's sort of what I started doing on my 1/6 scale DrI. I figured I had spent so long venerating the Nieto drawings, that I should just build it as an "homage" to his drawings. But, of course, then I got sucked into playing the "research" game. [:@]

Quote:
1/4 scale LVG - now I'm drooling again as you well know...
I have to admit that now that I've gotten used to looking at the 1/4 scale enlargement I made, the 1/6 scale side view looks almost teeny.
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Old 10-12-2012, 07:46 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Yes Matz, I have the plans and they are a work of art as Don says. I ordered the magazine constructions notes from Mizer and they state:
"The fuselage has four longerons and 15 formers. The longerons are balsa, basswood or spruce squares. Strength is needed with the hardwood squares from the nose cowl back to the landing gear"

So they should be basswood or spruce squares of whatever dimension the plans call for. On my set of plans the longerons are 1/4" square except for the top one that goes from cowl to cockpit - it is 1/8 x 1/4".
I can scan the article for you if you want but it rerally isn't much help.
I will look more closely in the morning and get back to you.

Cheers,
Bri
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Old 10-12-2012, 10:18 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
I can scan the article for you if you want but it rerally isn't much help.
I think I might have it somewhere as well. But you're right that these magazine construction articles are rarely of much use. And I think it's assumed that anyone building a 2-seater biplane of this size already knows what he's doing so the details can be left up to the builder.
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Old 10-12-2012, 11:53 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build


Quote:
ORIGINAL: abufletcher

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Flying Fox
I can scan the article for you if you want but it rerally isn't much help.
I think I might have it somewhere as well. But you're right that these magazine construction articles are rarely of much use. And I think it's assumed that anyone building a 2-seater biplane of this size already knows what he's doing so the details can be left up to the builder.
MorningDon and Bri,

but,...mhm,....."knows what he's doing"?

I think, if someone has designed so a (scale) model with so many details, he could give material informations in the plans.
It's no fun to build a model at to realize that a lot has been chosen incorrectly.
Don, I have really good connections to the Brussels museum and I think it's better to revise it all again.
My friend who works in the museum, sent me the pictures and the details, and also detailed pictures of the Halberstadt, maybe I will make a new plan better ....... or even an other model ... the Halberstadt?
Because the Dr1, why didn't ask me?
I have a lot of information about the Dr1, also a single original blueprint and a original piece of the covering.

Matz

Bri, I will show you one of the original Benz blueprints, you will love it.
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Old 10-13-2012, 12:31 AM
  #2517
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

We scanned the drawings on an A0 scanner, here just a small piece of the cylinder drawings.

Have fun,...
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Old 10-13-2012, 02:24 AM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Quote:
ORIGINAL: gabriel voisin
but,...mhm,.....''knows what he's doing''?
We know you know what you're doing! You've proven that many times! What I meant was more experienced builders often choose to make their own materials choices and often alter the construction. The Mizer model plan is a very good model plan...but that's all it is...a model plan. In fact, I don't know of any model plans that are more accurate. To get more accurate we have to go to technical drawings. Nevertheless, Mizer was able to use these plans to build a model that took "Best of Show" at the Toledo Model Show.

Quote:
Don, I have really good connections to the Brussels museum and I think it's better to revise it all again.
That's sort of what happened with I was working on my Sopwith Strutter. I ordered the Mick Reeve kit but quickly realized that I wanted more scale structure.

Quote:
Because the Dr1, why didn't ask me?
I have a lot of information about the Dr1, also a single original blueprint and a original piece of the covering.
My DrI model started as an experiment. The experiment was this: Could I build a scale model using something like scale structure? I had never tried to do that before. I haven't finished the model, but I did learn that building scale is not only possible, it's often preferable.
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Old 10-13-2012, 06:13 AM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

This series of photos shows the making of the hinge attachment blocks. Following Martin's lead, I made a "sandwich' with 0.4mm ply inside (about the same as the brass sheet strips). There are gaps in the "filling" where the brass straps go. This allows the lower strap to slip into the block while the upper strap goes on the top. After the wing and aileron are covered, I will be able to attach the ailerons with bolts or screws.

The first photo shows the sandwich. The second shows how the sandwich was marked to be cut into individual blocks. The third shows the blocks mounted in the wing. The fourth photo shows the positioning of the hinges on the aileron LE. Each hinge will be mounted on a short section of 4mm brass tubing (with 5mm retaining rings on either side). These sections of tube/hinge will then be embedded into the top of the aileron LE. The trick with all this is to ensure that the alignment is asgood as it possibly can be to allow freedom of movement. For the placement of the blocks, I had all the hinges and blocks on a long length of 4mm brass tube as I was gluing in the blocks. Doing the alignment on the ailerons might be a bit trickier.
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Old 10-13-2012, 11:51 AM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Quote:
Matz: I think, if someone has designed so a (scale) model with so many details, he could give material informations in the plans
I agree with you Matz - that info should be on the plans and then as Don stated, an experienced builder can change it if he wishes. They should still be marked on the plans. This is the only thing about the plans that is missing.

Quote:
original Benz blueprints, you will love it
- Wow, very nice. Yes, I'm drooling again...
You are lucky to have such good connections to the museum!

You know, the three of us should try to work together on the LVG. Consider it sort of a long term project. We are on three different continents so no worries if you ever want to compete in a scale competition with it. I'm not that good a flier anyway. But it really would be an interesting project for the three of us to work on together to re-design the LVG and scale it up to a larger size (1/5 or 1/4 scale). We can even have our own 'discussion' over the correct lozenge colours and try the printed silkspan over koverall method. Do you draft by hand or use a CAD program?

Cheers,
Bri
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Old 10-13-2012, 01:41 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build



Thanks Brian, that's a really good idea.

But sorry, ... today I called my friend in Brussels and now I will not build the LVG.



To change the LVG is to much work and nothing for me.

I've decided that I will construct now the Halberstadt .....complete self.

,...Matz

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Old 10-13-2012, 04:13 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

The Halberstadt is a great choice. What will you use as the basis for the outlines (and structure?) of your design?

Unfortunately, I've gotten to that point where I don't really want to build from "model plans" any more. [] And as I said, the Mizer plans are great looking plans but they are still just model plans.

*****

I managed one further hour of flying therapy on this fine Sunday morning (6 x 10 minute flights during a two hour session at the field). October's a great month for flying here in Japan. I love to build, but flying ties it all together. I need to get my SE5a and Snipe back in the air.
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Old 10-13-2012, 08:47 PM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Flying Fox

Quote:
Matz: I think, if someone has designed so a (scale) model with so many details, he could give material informations in the plans
I agree with you Matz - that info should be on the plans and then as Don stated, an experienced builder can change it if he wishes. They should still be marked on the plans. This is the only thing about the plans that is missing.

Quote:
original Benz blueprints, you will love it
- Wow, very nice. Yes, I'm drooling again...
You are lucky to have such good connections to the museum!
Two comment about including material information on plans like this one. First, there's the issue of Imperial vs. Metric. Second, if the plans are enlarged, then all of those dimensions...and even some of the materials became useless. For example, on a 1/6 scale LVG I think 1/4" balsa longerons would be fine (with ply sheeting). On the other hand, at 1/4 scale I'd probably go with something like 1/4" spruce. That is, the materials don't "scale" that easily.
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:16 AM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Don,

you're right, the Mizer plan is ok, but the outline,the wings and the tailis not right, also the frames.
If theoutline is not right, then you can still do so much, I'm not satisfied with a compromise.
Since I have so many detailed pictures of the restoration, I would go no compromise and would not please me, sorry but that's my personal opinion.
Also I've an original blue print of the LVG, and that shows the outline better.


The material for the Halberstadt:
I try to design the model as well as possible, but it does not matter if it's balsa, spruce, or a different material, as long as the technical design is ok.
You know, leight flies better.

Your question about the outline:
First I will buy the Windsock Datafile, to compare the components with my drawings and my photos.
some time ago you could download the Windsock Datafiles for free, but I can't find it, therefore I must first buy a magazine.

Please don't be angry,....
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Old 10-14-2012, 01:41 AM
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Default RE: CD ScaleDesigns Albatros CI build

Hi Matz

I have the scans of both Halberstadt CL II and CL IV; if needed I can send them to you; due the size of the files it would be better to send as jumbo-mail; if needed send me a reply to my PM box.
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