Flying Fox

... show us please...

abufletcher

It means, yes, I'd like to see any photos you're willing to share (publicly or privately). In particular, I'd like to see any color photos you have of the Hazet radiators. I've read that they were coated in zinc...and so I've been thinking of spray painting them with a zinc-based exterior paint I found. It's a silver color.

gabriel voisin

Ok Don,

I have sent 18 pics on your private mail adress.

Matz

gabriel voisin

Don,

for your info. The Hazet radiators ( all radiators where mounted on the side, not only the Hazet) were really bad.

greetings

abufletcher

Thanks very much for the photos. Do you mean that the radiators didn't function well?

geezeraviation

My Feedback: (3)

Probably of low efficiency, not all radiators work well, Heat transfer, flow charactaristics, etc
Doc
Edit: flow dynamics in tubular systems are not rocket science they can behave differently in identical systems at different times/pressures.

abufletcher

But from a modeler's perspective they sure add a boat-load of FUNK! I love that they even used adjustable "socks" on some of the panels to modifying the cooling. Talk about rocket science!

PS. Yes, my model will have the socks on two of the panels.

gabriel voisin

yes, they was mounted too low and didn't work well.

The radiator systems was complex, there were even summer and winter radiators at German aircrafts.

abufletcher

Just a quick post to keep this thread active. After a lot of experimentation and practicing with new materials, I've got the two bottom wings covered with Koverall. This is my first time using Koverall and it takes a bit more work than Solartex but produces a very nice, taut surface. There are still a few construction details to finish up on the top wings before they're also ready to cover.

Note: It's shocking that I'm now up to page 99 of this thread! [X(][]

geezeraviation

My Feedback: (3)

Are you planning to paint or "treat" the carbon parts of the empenage so it doesnt show dark through the covering?
Doc

abufletcher

Yeah. One possibility might be to iron on a strip of opaque Solartex White before I apply the Koverall. On the wings the LE is covered by the two overlapping layers of Koverall and then a edge strip of Solartex Natural. This tones the CF down enough that it should look ok underneath the colored silk. Historically I'm sure the steel tube empenage would have been painted with either gray or green primer.

Mein Duff

Absolutely gorgeous Don...nice work ! I'm drooling all over myself

Flying Fox

What a fabulous job!
I while back I thought it almost seemed a shame to want to cover it up, but it's looking even better with some fabric on it. Good to hear the silk-koverall method and stiches are working out.
Bri

abufletcher

A little note here (to myself and others): A 10cm x 10cm square of Solartex (Linen) weighs roughly twice as much (1g) as squares of the Koverall and silk combined (total 0.5g). I'm not absolutely sure of these measurements since this is probably at the limit of what my digital scale can do. But the Solartex is noticeably heavier. Normally, I finish Solartex with a couple thin coats of Nelson's paint or clear, while the Koverall and Silk need to have the weave filled (with dope or PolyC). So in the end, I would imagine that the weight of either covering method is about the same.

Mein Duff

Good info...would be good to know what the final difference is when the Koverall / Silk is doped in. Also if you were painting over this ( SE5 / Camel etc.) you would be adding a coat or two of paint..

The coverall I have definitely has a much lower thread count than Solartex...tex is tighter ....

There are jugdes who notice this stuff up close....[&o]

abufletcher

I estimate that the silk weighs no more than a couple of coats of paint The Habotai silk is VERY light material. So I see the weight of the silk as replacing the weight of paint since I won't be painting my wings. Of course, if I were going to paint the wings, there's be no need to use the silk.

I haven't looked at this closely. You may be right. The weave of the Koverall absolutely needs to be filled or the wing simply won't function as per full scale. Solartex comes already "filled" so you can use it "as is" though many modelers prefer to give it a protective coat.

I believe in the "lowest common denominator" approach to scale modeling. That is, you look at the crudest part of your model, and if the other details are better than that, you're doing fine. This is a corollary of the social principle: "You don't have to be faster than the bear...just faster than your friend."

abufletcher

BTW, it's important to distinguish Koverall (from SIG) from Coverall (from TopFlite). Koverall is a heat-shrink fabric with NO adhesive. It really is JUST fabric. It has to be applied with either dope or something like Stix-it, which is brushed onto the frame. After it's been attached to the frame, it can be shrunk with an iron. Coverall, in contrast, is (I believe) similar to Solartex in that it is an adhesive-based material.

geezeraviation

My Feedback: (3)

Top Flight offers Monokote and Econokote and the matching paints Lusterkote, there is no Coverall with a "C" or any fabric based covering available from them. Coverite used to offer a pre painted fabric covering and maybe still do but it was horrible stuff I think it was called 21st Century fabric. I covered a big sport biplane with it then took it all off and used something else. Jerry Nelson sold Litefab and color fab and claimed it was Solartex with his lable on it but every one you talk to that used it seems to think it was lighter than regular Solartex. Coverite also used to make a Super shrink and a Super Super shrink fabric covering that was very light but the adhesive was/is inferior to whats on Solartex. I just covered a 1/4 scale N28 for a friend with the old pink lable Super Super shrink stuff. Not as easy to work with as Tex. But not bad, my Mohawk Pinto is covered with it. The Habouti silk is really nice and weighs less than 1/2 oz per sq yd and I use it like fiberglass for smoothe finish on sheeted surfaces, it is woven tighter and doesnt require a fill coat of resin, just primer.
Doc

abufletcher

Good information, Doc. Lesson learned: Don't trust Google. There are several references to Coverall (or "old Coverall") and they seem to be referred to adhesive-based materials. Anyway, Koverall (with a K) is just plain heat-shrinkable fabric...nothing else. And it doesn't come in any colors.

I also still like Solartex a lot (particularly the non-color Natural) but you pick a covering based on the problem at hand and it's nice to have a choice. With the wire TE SIG Koverall is the better choice.

Idigbo

That looks incredibly beautiful Don, a real credit to your skills. My C.III is getting a refurb at the moment, I think I'm going with Solartex 'natural' for the covering.

Ian.

geezeraviation

My Feedback: (3)

Yes indeed, your lower wing looks great with the wire TE, the scallops are just right. There may have been something in the past from Top Flight but the only thing on thier website these days is film.
Doc

abufletcher

Does your CIII also have the wire TE? I found it just plain impossible to shrink the Solartex against the (pre-curved) wire. Matz had explained a method for attaching Solartex and other coverings but gluing little tabs directly onto the wire, but I wasn't haven't success with that either. Can I ask how you'll do the Z-rib stitching on your CIII. One can never get too many suggestions!

abufletcher

Finding a way to do the (German) Albatros-style rib stitching on my model is a classic example of the knock-on effect of doing one thing in a non-scale way. Because my ribs are not scale ribs (with the scale cut-outs) it wasn't possible to tie on the fabric strip as seen on the Vintage Aviator site. And since the bottom wing stitching (a sort of simple straight stitch) would have been done from the inside before the top covering was added, there's no way to stitch the covered model wing in a way that produces both the correct top Z-stitch and the bottom straight stitch. Also since my balsa ribs are not of scale thickness, the rib caps are also not scale width. And this makes it difficult to create stitches that have a scale width-to-length proportion.

But scale modeling is full of compromises and Dave has provided a very practical way of doing the top Z stitching which, despite my still shaky technique, looks like it should work very well and is much easier than what I was doing before. The stitching in the upper right of the photo below are approximately right for a 1/6 scale model. The downside is that the stitching on the bottom just goes straight across the rib caps as with typical British stitching. Now to determine whether those Albatros Z-stitches were "right-handed" or "left-handed" (i.e. which way did the diagonal go)!

Note: The May/June 2010 issue of Windsock Worldwide has a photo essay on Koloman Mayrhofer's Austrian OEF DIII and the stitching used on these Austrian DIIIs was yet another style of rib stitching. As the old saying goes: The devil is in the detail.

gabriel voisin

Don,.........greetings Matz

By the way,
I have some old books about individual Jasta pilots with old photos
If interested I can upload something but all is in german old style language.

ulpilotrmh

My Feedback: (2)

Hey Don,

Not to throw a wrench into the works, but I have noticed all the scalerib stitching done on modeling sites is spaced the same over all surfaces. Modern practices call for close spacing in the areas of the prop wash, and wider spacing elseware. I've often wondered if the same practice might have been used 'Back in the Day'. One of the museums should have that info. If true, this would lessen the tedium of the stitching process.

Russ