scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
08-24-2010, 02:13 PM
#27
RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
ORIGINAL: MAJSteve
Those who are SEVERE scale modelers would probably be very interested if you made them as exact replicas of their specific airplane's ends and turnbuckles.
Those who are SEVERE scale modelers would probably be very interested if you made them as exact replicas of their specific airplane's ends and turnbuckles.
They're already spending probably $200 for the flat flying wires (at least), so it might be a ''custom'' job for each one.
As far the cost of turnbuckles, I don't think I could really make myself pay more than about $5 a piece each for one that's exactly scale. I just can't see spending $200+ on turnbuckles for a model.
08-24-2010, 02:51 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
I agree. When I can get to my other computer and shrink the file size down on my full-scale PuP photos, then I'll show what I saw at the museum. I got the info about cables and flat wires from that think little book about the plane - its something like a Profile Publication but its from England.
I agree that the number of "eyes and forks (or yolks)" on the plane would be double the number of wires, so that would probably be a good way to start. Once those are made to fit the wires, then the wires could be worked out. I forgot about the Mick Reeves flat wire. I'll take a look at that option.
I agree that the number of "eyes and forks (or yolks)" on the plane would be double the number of wires, so that would probably be a good way to start. Once those are made to fit the wires, then the wires could be worked out. I forgot about the Mick Reeves flat wire. I'll take a look at that option.
08-24-2010, 03:14 PM
#29
RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
I've also visited that bare-bones Pup at San Diego Aerospace Museum many times! I wish it were still in the Foyer with the good light! In terms of fittings on the Sopwiths, this is what is needed:
08-24-2010, 03:38 PM
#30
RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Here is a couple of shots of that replica in San Diego
- plus a way to fake small ones for the cabanes and interplane struts
- plus a way to make functional parts by cutting turnbuckles in half.
- plus a way to fake small ones for the cabanes and interplane struts
- plus a way to make functional parts by cutting turnbuckles in half.
08-24-2010, 03:41 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
[/quote]
As far the cost of turnbuckles, I don't think I could really make myself pay more than about $5 a piece each for one that's exactly scale. I just can't see spending $200+ on turnbuckles for a model.
[/quote]
I guess you're stuck with the Dubros then as they are about $5 a piece. Make some "exactly scale" ones up yourself and see if that five bucks would cover it. At that price you would cover the material and maybe you might, if you really worked hard, make a few bucks an hour. Hardly worth the effort. Isn't the time to make them worth something? Would you make an "exactly scale" plane and sell it for just over the price of the material you had in it? Didn't think so.
I guess they'll just be for me then.
Thanks,
Martin
08-24-2010, 03:54 PM
#32
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Printed out the page and the top and 7th wire measure 1/2 " wide, so that would make the threads on the end about 5/16". I'm thinking that the reduction was probably 50% because I think those wires would be about 1" at least, which would make the thread 5/8".
So, using 1/3 scale, the wires would be .33 (which could probably be formed from 5/16" round wire). For this I'd use a 10-32 die, since that's the closest.
For the smaller wires it looks like using the same idea has those wires at 1/2" (so 5/32" wire) and therefore the threads would be something like a 4/40.
Both these are possible IF we can figure out a way to make streamlined wire or find flat stock that's 21/64" and 11/64" (so figure 5/16" & 5/32)
Now, I have to figure out how to make flat wire or find 5/16 and 5/32 flat stock and braze the threaded ends on. At least with this idea the length of the threaded/unthreaded rod could be any length and cut to size instead of trying to make the wire one piece including the ends. I also think commerical eyes and forks are probably available to fit common threads but they would probably be the costiest items. I'll surf the net and see what I can find.
So, using 1/3 scale, the wires would be .33 (which could probably be formed from 5/16" round wire). For this I'd use a 10-32 die, since that's the closest.
For the smaller wires it looks like using the same idea has those wires at 1/2" (so 5/32" wire) and therefore the threads would be something like a 4/40.
Both these are possible IF we can figure out a way to make streamlined wire or find flat stock that's 21/64" and 11/64" (so figure 5/16" & 5/32)
Now, I have to figure out how to make flat wire or find 5/16 and 5/32 flat stock and braze the threaded ends on. At least with this idea the length of the threaded/unthreaded rod could be any length and cut to size instead of trying to make the wire one piece including the ends. I also think commerical eyes and forks are probably available to fit common threads but they would probably be the costiest items. I'll surf the net and see what I can find.
08-24-2010, 04:25 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Not a bad idea, a little springy, but it might work. I had one of those and I'll go to Lowe's and look at what they have there.
08-24-2010, 04:34 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
As close to the real deal as you will ever get. http://www.flying-wires.ch/flying-wi...ospect_en.html Flat, aerodynamic, forked end - got it all. Question is; How much is "scale" worth to you? For a 1/3 scale SE5a, about $1K.
08-24-2010, 05:47 PM
#36
RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
ORIGINAL: mcjustis
I guess you're stuck with the Dubros then as they are about $5 a piece. Make some ''exactly scale'' ones up yourself and see if that five bucks would cover it. At that price you would cover the material and maybe you might, if you really worked hard, make a few bucks an hour. Hardly worth the effort. Isn't the time to make them worth something? Would you make an ''exactly scale'' plane and sell it for just over the price of the material you had in it? Didn't think so.
I guess they'll just be for me then.
I guess you're stuck with the Dubros then as they are about $5 a piece. Make some ''exactly scale'' ones up yourself and see if that five bucks would cover it. At that price you would cover the material and maybe you might, if you really worked hard, make a few bucks an hour. Hardly worth the effort. Isn't the time to make them worth something? Would you make an ''exactly scale'' plane and sell it for just over the price of the material you had in it? Didn't think so.
I guess they'll just be for me then.
08-24-2010, 06:12 PM
#37
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
I was just looking through the net and saw that boat turnbuckles cost $15 minimum each in the smallest size. And one airplane turnbuckle on eBay is listing with an original price of $40.
I think that we all have an established balance between "flying" and "building". Personally I consider myself to be more of a builder, so things that are involved with building interest me more than being able to fly the pattern inverted (though I've done that too).
The intricacies of getting something exactly right aren't my style either. Close enough is generally good enough for me, but I looked over a post of a guy in Iceland that was building to world-class standards and I will confess that the amount of detail he puts into a model is WAY more than I can do, but the results are spectacular. Building a SCALE wicker seat for the plane being one example. I guess they have a LOT of winter time building in Iceland! But, that being said, when I look at something that I know I could do better IF I had the resources, I tend to get frustrated. Ergo I bought a TAIG lathe, watched some of the MIT and India Institute of Technology lectures on machining and realized that if someone else can make one, then I probably can too.
The initial question of this thread was "Is there a need for scale turnbuckles". I'm gathering that there is, but that its a very limited market but could probably be expanded if the rigging items were available. After all, you can always build and continue adding to a scale model as time and money allow. The manufacturers aren't interested in doing this because adding another $200 to a $400 kit would probably not be a good option. I look at the "must haves", and the list was: research, kit, engine, covering, major items like wheels and props. All of them add up to a flying model, but definetly a "sport-scale". I also realize that adding the little things like rivet detail, scalish landing gear, hatches, pilot and weathering add a lot to the look of the plane. Putting 4-40 clevises and rigging connectors on cable just doesn't add to my enjoyment of the hobby. It was a, shall we say, necessary evil because I couldn't find anything better.
I think that we all have an established balance between "flying" and "building". Personally I consider myself to be more of a builder, so things that are involved with building interest me more than being able to fly the pattern inverted (though I've done that too).
The intricacies of getting something exactly right aren't my style either. Close enough is generally good enough for me, but I looked over a post of a guy in Iceland that was building to world-class standards and I will confess that the amount of detail he puts into a model is WAY more than I can do, but the results are spectacular. Building a SCALE wicker seat for the plane being one example. I guess they have a LOT of winter time building in Iceland! But, that being said, when I look at something that I know I could do better IF I had the resources, I tend to get frustrated. Ergo I bought a TAIG lathe, watched some of the MIT and India Institute of Technology lectures on machining and realized that if someone else can make one, then I probably can too.
The initial question of this thread was "Is there a need for scale turnbuckles". I'm gathering that there is, but that its a very limited market but could probably be expanded if the rigging items were available. After all, you can always build and continue adding to a scale model as time and money allow. The manufacturers aren't interested in doing this because adding another $200 to a $400 kit would probably not be a good option. I look at the "must haves", and the list was: research, kit, engine, covering, major items like wheels and props. All of them add up to a flying model, but definetly a "sport-scale". I also realize that adding the little things like rivet detail, scalish landing gear, hatches, pilot and weathering add a lot to the look of the plane. Putting 4-40 clevises and rigging connectors on cable just doesn't add to my enjoyment of the hobby. It was a, shall we say, necessary evil because I couldn't find anything better.
08-24-2010, 06:16 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Those are beautifully done, certainly adding to the truely scale appearance of a Pitts (or any other plane), and for those who can afford it and want to win competitions very necessary.
I've seen a contest-winning WACO that was owned by a club member. He figured it was better to buy a winner than to try and get one built. Kind of like buying a champion dog instead of trying to breed one. In his case, he had the money and the inclination, so he did.
A couple of years later, he gave up on flying models and bought a full-scale WACO biplane.
I've seen a contest-winning WACO that was owned by a club member. He figured it was better to buy a winner than to try and get one built. Kind of like buying a champion dog instead of trying to breed one. In his case, he had the money and the inclination, so he did.
A couple of years later, he gave up on flying models and bought a full-scale WACO biplane.
08-24-2010, 06:17 PM
#39
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
ORIGINAL: abufletcher
Question for WWI modelers out there: Do you really use turnbuckles to properly tension rigging...or are they mostly cosmetic? One problem with available model turnbuckles is that they don't really provide much travel.
Also what's really needed on most of the British aircraft are actually fork ends, rather than turnbuckles for the rigging.
Question for WWI modelers out there: Do you really use turnbuckles to properly tension rigging...or are they mostly cosmetic? One problem with available model turnbuckles is that they don't really provide much travel.
Also what's really needed on most of the British aircraft are actually fork ends, rather than turnbuckles for the rigging.
Mick Reeves has a bunch of offerings, too!
08-25-2010, 04:59 AM
#40
RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
IMHO, I believe what is being offered by MCJUSTICE beats the stuffing out of Dubros tunbuckels, I'm not sure of the cost, however I will say I would gladly pay a bit more to have a better product (ie looks,and function) I know it's unrealistic to have specific turnbuckels for each aircraft unless your a machinest as there were numerous types used. I do understand all modelers have a different goal in mind for their projects, some are detailed down to the last screw, some just want scale fliers and everything else inbetween. Speaking for myself, I would pay a bit more and I do think there is a need. If nothing else maybe it will spark other manufacturers to release other offerings.
08-25-2010, 08:40 AM
#42
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Mcjustis' turnbuckles look to be about 1 5/8" closed with a 1 1/8 barrel. Three times that is a 5" closed turnbuckle with a 3 3/8 barrel - pretty much bang on, or even a little small!
The problem with the Kavan turnbuckles is the lack of a slotted end. This is what Dubro and Kavan are missing and it is important for all the rigging turnbuckles on aircraft with cabling. (RAF wires, which came in on virtually all British aircraft around the end of 1916 IIRC, is another matter all together.) There were a variety of shapes of turnbuckles, (no surprise - I imagine there were hundreds of firms making them 90 years ago), so as long as the basic taper and overall length are OK, most modellers should be happy with them.
As for cost, I am looking at a $50 unpainted pilot, and $80 wheels that will need sereral nights' work to make presentable. At $10 a turnbuckle, four landing wires and eight lift wires will cost $100, instead of $50 for Dubro or Kavan. Yeah, I think it's worth it.
My 2 cents,
Martin
The problem with the Kavan turnbuckles is the lack of a slotted end. This is what Dubro and Kavan are missing and it is important for all the rigging turnbuckles on aircraft with cabling. (RAF wires, which came in on virtually all British aircraft around the end of 1916 IIRC, is another matter all together.) There were a variety of shapes of turnbuckles, (no surprise - I imagine there were hundreds of firms making them 90 years ago), so as long as the basic taper and overall length are OK, most modellers should be happy with them.
As for cost, I am looking at a $50 unpainted pilot, and $80 wheels that will need sereral nights' work to make presentable. At $10 a turnbuckle, four landing wires and eight lift wires will cost $100, instead of $50 for Dubro or Kavan. Yeah, I think it's worth it.
My 2 cents,
Martin
08-25-2010, 10:14 AM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
[img][/img]Mick Reeves has the scale solution for the solid wire rigging (in several sizes) and not that expensive!
http://www.mickreevesmodels.co.uk/~m...es/p2bipe.html
He even has a video showing the fork ends assembly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_pJqqH2r-8
These make up into excellent replications of the originals in the correct sizing for appearance as well as function.
Check out the hard stainless fittings sheet below the solid rigging forkends. That is where he has the 3 sizes of solid rigging wire listed as well as quanities needed.
I also have a diagram of a fixture for Silver Soldering the wire to the fork end in case anyone is interested.
Now scale turnbuckles are a different story.......
Looking at the sailboat model market.......
http://www.modelyachtfittings.com/
Check his standard turnbuckle offerings. About as scale as you will find and about all that I have found that are not the same as the DuBro style.
http://www.mickreevesmodels.co.uk/~m...es/p2bipe.html
He even has a video showing the fork ends assembly. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_pJqqH2r-8
These make up into excellent replications of the originals in the correct sizing for appearance as well as function.
Check out the hard stainless fittings sheet below the solid rigging forkends. That is where he has the 3 sizes of solid rigging wire listed as well as quanities needed.
I also have a diagram of a fixture for Silver Soldering the wire to the fork end in case anyone is interested.
Now scale turnbuckles are a different story.......
Looking at the sailboat model market.......
http://www.modelyachtfittings.com/
Check his standard turnbuckle offerings. About as scale as you will find and about all that I have found that are not the same as the DuBro style.
08-25-2010, 10:41 AM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Another boat supplier with inexpensive turnbuckles offering eye & fork ends.
http://www.modellingtimbers.co.uk/8.html
Check out the working shackles & thimbals.
http://www.modellingtimbers.co.uk/11.html
http://www.modellingtimbers.co.uk/8.html
Check out the working shackles & thimbals.
http://www.modellingtimbers.co.uk/11.html
08-25-2010, 12:50 PM
#46
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Looked over that site. Great little pieces of work! I printed out the Reeves fork end and measured the ends. The one on the left seems to print out at full scale and is a pretty obvious option. Also, some of the prices on his other things are very good too: Vickers and Dashboard. I may do a small order from him!
I haven't looked at the Pup links in a long time. Thanks for reminding me not to reinvent the wheel
I haven't looked at the Pup links in a long time. Thanks for reminding me not to reinvent the wheel
08-25-2010, 12:59 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
It's very easy to order from Mick & others in the UK. The exchange rate is not bad at this time & delivery times are not excessive either.
08-25-2010, 01:02 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
Can't seem to load a word document for some reason. I have a chart someone worked out that shows scale to 1/5, 1/4, and 1/3 equivalents of flying wires from 6-40 to 1/2-20 threads, though I can't believe that someone would use flying wires under 1/4 inch for anything full sized.
08-27-2010, 02:18 PM
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RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
ORIGINAL: MAJSteve
Nice work, especially on the eyes. How did you work that profile on the machine? I don't know whether to start with hex or flat stock and then mill/turn the threaded end down to size. The egg-shaped ends have me a little puzzled. I don't think filing to shape would be the most efficient way for production runs!
Nice work, especially on the eyes. How did you work that profile on the machine? I don't know whether to start with hex or flat stock and then mill/turn the threaded end down to size. The egg-shaped ends have me a little puzzled. I don't think filing to shape would be the most efficient way for production runs!
Sorry for the late reaction,
I made some photos to show how I made the eyes. I have no mill so I have to do it on the lathe. I made a special holder for the eyes and use two saw blades with a spacer for the correct size to cut the eye.
The fork ends are made in a same way, only using one saw blade in the desired thickness. Don't forget to drill the hole first before milling the shape.
For the fork and eye I start with round stock, and for the bodies it depend on the type I need, hex or round.
Teus
08-28-2010, 08:17 AM
#50
RE: scale turnbuckles - is there a need?
TFF you are correct about the streamline wires on Sopwiths. We used 1x19 and turnbuckles on our full size pup as the cost is less than 1/8th $350.00 vs literally $10,000 for streamline wires. Plus there is only one place worldwide that is selling themthey areout of the UK. cool huh?