retransit

My Feedback: (18)

I am rebuilding a Concept Fleet in the colors shown in the picture below. I am currently close to painting the roundels and lettering on the wings. Does anyone know if the insignia and lettering paint finish is flat, semi-gloss or gloss?

I suspect it to be a variation of between dead-nuts flat and semi-gloss. Any help on this would be much appreciated.

I checked Volume 1 of "Air Force Colors", and although it has a formula, according to Spec 98-24102 for size and location, it does not address the finish.

Bob

TFF

Without polishing, old dope finishes are slightly glossier that semi-gloss. Most planes today are over-restored and babied; when they were originally working planes. Also the planes were recovered about every 5 years with old style cotton fabric, so they were not going to shine up something that was going to be cut off soon.

retransit

My Feedback: (18)

I guess I should have asked, what was the standard at the time the aircraft was flown (new)?

The aircraft I am modelling has been restored and I'm sure that the original did not have the finish pictured.

All I want to know is the finish on the insignia. I understand the weathering aspect. My friend thinks I should have weathered the finish but I explained that I am not modeling a period aircraft, only one that has been restored.

Bob

TFF

A new doped finish is slightly glossier than semi. That plane pictured looks like it is done in Aerothane and polished; popular with restorers for the gloss. No matter the finish, the insignia will be the same as the main paint, unless it is a field mod under war conditions.

Lnewqban

I don't know, Bob, the following is just a reference.

The original black and white pictures shown in this place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...Army_Air_Corps

....when seen in full resolution (click on picture, then click on full resolution), show flat overall finish for the skin and insignias alike.

The P-26A plane expossed in a museum shows gloss finish, though.

It seems to me that the pictures of the restored PT-13, O-46A and P-12E show semi-gloss finish for both, skin and insignias.

Personally, I would like to see the same finish for the whole plane (whichever th erestorer choose), as I have seen restored planes in air shows displays.

Very nice project!

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

The pictures you posted of the restored plane looks like its very glossy. I would suspect that the stars are no different..

retransit

My Feedback: (18)

Has anyone ever seen this aircraft in the March Field Museum? I sent an email inquiry to the contact person looking for pictures but they didn't respond.

Lnewqban: I looked at the B-6A and it looks like there is a reflection on the bottom part of the lower wing and top part of the cowling. I don't think they were painted flat.

However the finish, I just want to replicate that particular aircraft.

Bob

Lnewqban

Hard to tell just by looking at those old B&W pictures.

You could see some more of those here:

http://www.google.com/images?q=Keyst...art=18&ndsp=18

http://www.riversidercclub.org/Techn...h_modeling.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keystone_B-6

BobH

My Feedback: (2)

Dope's not flat.. this isnt to say that it doesn't weather but its definately not flat. You can see in the black and white phots reflections on the under wing surfaces.. etc.

retransit

My Feedback: (18)

A flattening agent can be added to paint (dope, lacquer, enamel, epoxy, etc.) to produce less sheen on the finished product. Many years ago I used talcum powder to flatten model paints. If you order the flattening agent for epoxy paint from Klasskote you can see that the product is a lightweight white powder-like material.

I would say that something similar was used to produce the camo colors of WW II aircraft. Since some WW II a/c had fabric control surfaces, a flattening agent was used in the paint when camo was required.

If you let a flat dope (Aerogloss) sit for a time, it requires that you mix it before application. At the bottom of the can or jar was the flattening agent which resembled gray goop.

So, it can't be said that one type of paint is always glossy.

Bob

rcphotog

Bob.

Here's my only photo I can find thus far. I have been to the March Museum several times over the past twenty years. I can confirm that the paint on the PT-6 is gloss, including all lettering, including (U.S. ARMY) underneath and the national insignia.

The correct colors for the insignia are (FLAG Red no.15), (FLAG Blue no.24) and (White no.25), all gloss, applied to "training" aircraft. Combat A/C, even during peace time, had matt finnish on insignia which were INSIGNIA Red, INSIGNIA Blue and White.

As you know from reading (Air Force Colors vol. one), in the 1920's they reportedly used ULTRAMARINE Blue and VENETIAN Red, however not verified.

Notice: The insignia shown on the Wikipedia page (roundel with red center) is incorrect. The Red "dot" should "touch" the tangent lines of the star points. In other words, it's too small on the Wiki page.

Ken.
ps; I'm adding a couple pages of the book we're refering to for the benefit of others.

retransit

My Feedback: (18)

Ken, thanks for the information. I realize that some restorations need corrections to their layout of insignia, so I'm going with the placement and colors of the restored version since some documentation for the original is up for discussion and cannot be absolutely verified.

I'm not building a dead-on scale model, just copying what exists now. Besides, I didn't do the original build, I just tore everything off it and reinforced and repaired what was needed. I probably should have built from plans or a new kit.

Again, thanks for the info.

Bob

ARUP

I rec'd some pics of a Boeing B-9 from Michael Lombardi who is Boeing's Museum curator. The metal parts of the airplane are very shiny. Hope this helps a little.