Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

I'm wondering whether anyone has any nice "tricks" for painting those curvy pattee crosses...perhaps something similar to the trick for hand-painting roundels. If at all possible, I'd like to avoid using masks...at least until I've tried my hand at hand-painting.

I've printed out some practice sheets:

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

1) First hand paint the white boxes on the wings.
2) Trace out cross on paper and cut out with xacto knife
3) Place paper cross template on wing centered in white box and trace outline with pencil.
4) Get the most expensive black electrical tape and mask around outline. The tape will stretch and form making good curves. Hand paint the black crosses then lift tape and hand paint white or black with fine brush to fix bleed thru arreas. Comes out good with none of that messy spray painting.
5) I use latex.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

I'll keep the electrical tape tip in mind, but I guess I should have said "free-hand painting" the crosses. The technique for free-handing roundels was to paint with a natural curving sweep of the hand. And this turns out to be fairly easy because we're painting the inside of a "convex" curve. But on the patee cross, we're stuck with painting the inside of a concave curve...or to think of it another way, painting along the "outside" of a concave line. And that's tougher.

Some initial practice indicates that one set of the curved lines are easier to paint starting from the middle and curving out to the tip. The other set of lines is easier starting at the tip and curving into the middle. The diagram below shows what's easier for me as a left-hander. So I could do the edges with a thin brush, and then fill in the rest with a wider brush. The tips will take some care.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

A nice trick for avoiding (or limiting) paint bleeding under the edge is to very lightly seal the edge of the tape or mask with a clear paint (clearcoat or PolyC). Just the very lightest amount with a small brush to fill any imperceptible gaps. Then paint the marking.

I'll give our local Japanese variety of latex (house paint) a try. It's best if it "flows" nicely.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

As with the roundels, the line along the inside border of the cross is best done in a single pass with the brush fairly heavy with paint. On a test piece I used a 1/8" flat-tipped brush for this. Maybe even a narrower brush would work. Most of this line will be painted over when filling in the cross at which point you don't have to worry much about going over the outline. The corners were done with a fine-tipped brush and the cross filled in with a 1/2" brush.

For the time being, ignore the brush strokes (paint was too thick) and the warping (since this test was done on ordinary paper). Using the stroke directions shown above, even on this first attempt, the outline came out very sharp (with just one or two very small goof-ups). For the wings and rudder this shouldn't be too hard to do. It might be more difficult to free-hand the crosses on the fuselage. That's where a mask might come in handy.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

BTW, here's the aircraft I'm modeling (more or less with some artistic license). This is the only photo I've seen of this aircraft so all I can do is assume that the crosses on the wings and the rudder were the same (similar) to the one of the side. Patee crosses were far from stardard, but there seems to have been three basic variations. The earliest version (think, early EIIIs) was very narrow in the center and very wide at the end, then what seems to be a second version (maybe ca. 1915?) as seen in this photo. And then there was a later (last?) version with with the narrower arms (and a wider center) as seen on some DrIs. I also get the feeling this shape was associated with some naval aircraft. The datafile CI drawings show this style.

But the variety of patee crosses seen in period photos is truly astounding.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Your free hand look good. You can handle it. If you end up masking, i like Scotch tape cut to shape; has a good edge.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Looks great, Don. The larger the scale, the easier this sort of thing becomes. Small errors when building 1/12 scale are much more significant than at 1/3. I was pleasantly surprised at how well my hand painted markings turned out on my Aviatik. However, I would have been a little disappointed with the brush marks at a smaller scale.

Martin

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

FWIW Our paint doesn't 'scale' properly and the strokes will be too prominent. When you look at photos of the fellas doing the painting their brushes don't look to be very wide and they use stencils in some cases. Field repairs seem to have been done 'on the fly'. Spray them in place then go over them with a brush using a flat clear or somesuch. Any errors won't be as prominent. I like to use the blue pinstriping vinyl tape from auto paint shops but don't know if they're available in Japan.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

I know what you mean. But what I'm hoping is that if the paint is the right consistency it will flow such that there are no brush marks.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

From what I've seen (for example in historical photos and from replica builders), the black crosses (and roundels) weren't always painted ON TOP of underlying paint. Rather the background color was left "empty" in these areas and then the marking was "filled in." That might be a little hard at smaller scales, but might be worth attempting on a wing where the markings are clearly visible through the bottom fabric, as on the CI.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

It's not cheap but the best tape for clean paint lines comes from your local auto color supply such as English Color or find one that supplies the auto paint and body shops with their paints/tints.  They sell auto masking which I use a lot in my industry and it is of a quality that I haven't found.  It will form to most curves and leaves a very clean line even with air brushing.   You can also find some very nice brushes for pin stripping or touch p from them also. 

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Abu, either you got it or you don't.
Ok how about this based on post 3 picture.
Make two frisket paper masks that
-1 does the blue strokes to the corner and then 90 degrees all the way to the end.
-2 make a red mask along that edge and 90 degree to end of cross.
Now with your pencil marks of the entire cross, lay down the blue edge and paint most of the cross section.
Do this 3 more times working your way around the cross.
Now take the red edge mask. Line it up and finish the cross. Do same 3 more times and you are done.
Hope makes sense as im on a cell and unable to power point it.
R, mike

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Being right handed i would also make all my paint strokes in a left to right sweeping motion as it feels easier. So sometimes the red mask might be first, then the blue.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

My point was that with these sweeping motions no masks are needed at all! :D It can all be done entirely free-hand (no tape, no nothing) with very clean, sharp results...and I don't have a particularly steady hand. It's technique rather than skill.

I suppose it all boils down to preference. I definitely prefer the "work" of using a free-hand technique over the "work" of using masks (of either tape or frisket). Both have their pros and cons.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Right! Brush strokes won't show, much. That's why it would be easier to mask and spray! I understand what you are doing, though! (I think) Your CD Albi is looking good, BTW!

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Does anyone use "windshield wiper fluid" to make latex flow better?

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Here's Achim Engels at work. Right or wrong, the result is still impressive.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Hello abufletcher, if I were you I would NOT touch a water based paint for this type of application, (although the windsheild washer fluid does help the flow) but if you want to hand brush it freehand, you will want a enamal base paint.

If you want the best paint for hand lettering it's called "One Shot" lettering enamel, when I letter on a hot day I always add a few drops of kerosene to my paint, this slows the drying time and the paint flows out like its been sprayed, but takes longer to dry though. I suppose you could use this same process with any enamel paint even Testors Model Masters, if you try/test do not use much!!. for an example... if you where to say do this with a whole bottle of testors you would only use a VERY small drop of kerosene. One Shot is a slow drying paint anyways for your application you would probably not need kero, its just so you know.

really depends on how big your artwork is and how you go about it. Me I would probably make a pattern out of a manila folder (yellowish job folder) since there are more than one, tape it on your surface (all 4 sides) just enough to hold it dont need much - then trace it with a pencil (lightly) use a hard one like an "H" it leaves a very nice clean line, you will be covering it anyways. Then remove and then tape all 4 side with either fine line of even 3m GREEN masking tape it works almost as good as fine line, make sure you squeegee the edge very well where the paint is going to be. NOW... your ready to become a hand lettering sign painter... LOL!!:D

Brushes... one way to go is using a "liner brush" it has longer hairs then a standard brush, its used for outlining and scroll work, plus get your self a wider brush for filling in. Longer hairs carries more paint, - longer + wider (Quill) spreads paint out nicely.

the TUBE offers a ton of hand lettering and pinstripping videos, watch some and you will find out what I am talking about, Steve Kafka is a good place to start, check it out.

just practice a little and you will find it is not that hard to do. First tip I can give when you are pushing that brush... watch were you are going... not were the brush is at.;)

I'm 30yr. sign painter but most of the stuff I do on my models I cut stencils and spray with an airbrush... but I understand where your coming from, they defiantly weren't perfect on the real thing.

Good luck and have fun, willey

check out my gallery the A-4, P47 & the 51 are all paint no stickee's

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Steve Kafka's lettering demo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aU0eLk6vOUY


Here is a good example of how the tape is used for the horizontals and what the brush looks like in action

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OkDeN...eature=related

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Im with willey, Im no painter like him but have used lettering paint to do some graphic's on a small nitro boat also get some decent brushes for the job. You will be able to load the brush up with more paint and run a better line and further without stopping.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Here is a couple pics of the boat I did. This was my first time doing 24k goldleaf and lettering. Wish I was 20 years younger when I didn't have the shakes. Hope you don't mind me posting the pics. I have an Eindecker that Im going to do with all the crosses but will probably do them with tape and airbrush

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Yes having the right tools makes it much easier for doing the job, kinda like comparing flying a three channel Senior-eta and fly an aerobatic routine than fly it with a competition pattern ship.:D

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

that looks pretty cool!!;);)

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Thanks very much for all that "insider" knowledge! I'll give enamel a try...and maybe at some point in the future pick up some that specialty paint. The idea of slowing it down with kerosene is also interesting (if necessary). Who knows, maybe I will in the end end up using a mask, but I really enjoy learning about these other possible techniques...particularly one's used on the original aircraft. Somewhere I have a photo of a woman hand-painting markings on a full-scale WWII warbird and it's absolutely flawless.

The long-haired brushes highlight an important point: You're actually dragging the end of the brush that lays down the line.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Pretty amazing stuff.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2KSRjd0-UU[/youtube]

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

One thing I'm wonder about there is the layering of paint types. The covering(s) will absolutely be filled with water-based Polycrylic. There's no way to avoid this as it's vital for the process. And then I need to put down a white grid background and then the black crosses on top of that.

I had been planning to use simple latex for the white background, but isn't enamel on top of water-based paints a no-no? Would I have to use enamel for the white too...and would that white enamel bond to the PolyC?

(I need to dig out the compatibility chart that TFF posted.)

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

They are Maltese crosses

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Actually, the German crosses of WWI (and some WWII and later uses) are referred to as Pattee crosses. The Maltese cross is different.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cross_patt%C3%A9e

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_cross

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

these 2 are the only ones I've come across

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Here's the photo I was thinking of:

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

All windshield wiper fluid does is thin down latex and dilute the color. If you want better flow consistancy, use Floetrol. You can get it at most Home Depots, any paint store. It contains water and acrylic latex and doesn't dilute the tinting like most liquids do. They make Penetrol for oil based paints which works awesome as well.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

enamel over latex has never created a problem for me, done it plenty, thinning the paint when your painting anything is the most important part specially in hand lettering, it takes a little practice and doing to understand how important that step is, that is why the majority of people go wrong and give up.

On your first question... I would do this, make the traceable pattern of the Pattee as I discussed earlier first with manila folder, after that make a masking tape "sheet" oversized then the Pattee by taking the "green" 3m masking tape and overlapping it say by a 1/4" or use 2" tape much better/less seams. Any good tape works for this - DO NOT USE cheap tape ever for this process ever, most of the time I use a Transfer tape that is used for applying vinyl lettering it makes an awesome mask, but it might /probably wont stick to well on the fabric. OK now do this process on a hard flat surface that you can cut on, then squeegee down very good. lay/tape your pattern over the tape, pencil around it or hit it with a "spray can" any color will do so you have an outline, then cut it out with an exacto #11 with a new blade (VERY IMPORTANT STEP in cutting any mask), now peel the background off and pitch that, now you have a "male" stencil. OK, lay your box out on the plane wing/fuse with a pencil then tape that off just outside the line so the paint will cover your pencil, next peel your stencil off your board "carefully" so you don't stretch it out, stick that where you want that -squeegee down the edges pretty good. now paint your white background, peel tape back off, now you have a silhouetteof the Pattee. Let that dry then free hand the Pattee.;)

Now putting latex on an enamel bkgd. you could have a problem with it adhearing, you would need to scuff the surface really good to get any life out of it.

well hope I didn't confuse you, oh for that paint and transfer tape check out all the sign shops, they might just give you some?? it dont take much paint and tape for these projects.


On Thinning the paint... hope I explained that right, didn't want you to think that you just thin the paint with kero, that is just an additive to the paint not a reducer, a cheap alternative to Penetrol, So you need Paint, Thinner, and possibly the kero., its only a maybe thing if your having a problem with it too tacky. If your layering paint NEVER put kero on the bottom layer you will have an ocean of fish eye's on your top layer if you do!!!:D:D:D

The 38 and the Hoover 51 is for Murray.....:D:D:D:D

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

;)

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

The closest Home Depot is roughly 5,500 miles away! :D

Willey, I'm going to have to read your post several times to fully digest it.

*****

By the way, I used some lacquer thinner (at least that's what it says on the ca in Japanese) to thin out some old Testor's enamel that had gotten a little thick and when I started brushing it on, all of these little bubbles came out as if the thinner hadn't mixed at all with the enamel.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

By the way, what IS the difference between "paint thinner" and "lacquer thinner?" They both smell foul!

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

If you are looking at a Japanese label, you might have a translation issue. Real lacquer thinner is for real lacquer paint. but lacquer is also slang for paint some places, and there are tons of paint so saying paint thinner is like saying I like wine. Well what kind of wine; red, white, bla bla bla. Most US cans that say paint thinner are for oil based paints; in small print it says mineral spirits.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Japanese is notoriously slippery. I have two cans. One actually uses the English word "paint" (in Japanese kana characters) before the Japanese word for thinner. The other uses the kana-version of "lacquer" (raakkaa) before the same Japanese word for thinner. The fine print on the "lacquer thinner" can, or at least what I can read of it, says it for use with lacquer, varnish, and shellac.

Cutting to the chase, is enamel thinner different from either of these two other thinners?

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Mineral spirits can be used to thin something like Rustoleum, but when you say enamel it gets into the what kind of enamel. Enamel has to to with oxygen curing, it does not really say anything about what it is made of. The smell will be probably the key; if the paint and thinner smell the same you should be OK. If they dont smell the same dont mix.

RE: Tips for hand-painting German Pattee crosses?
 

Mix some. If they are not compatible you will know. Thinned paint may eat at a lower level better than if it was left alone. More thinner means more solvent that has to evaporate which means more is sitting on the surface for longer periods. Careful.