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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Eric,
My cylinder was shorter. I did not do the test, Earl did one to make sure the Glennis wheels would raise. I had Glennis ship the wheels directly to Earl just for that purpose. I don't have an air system to use for the test because I did not want to use air. |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
ORIGINAL: Riddle4U I am going to attach a couple rough pics of the Aune, you can get some vague dimensions. The distance from the front most part of the retraction mechanism to front surface of strut is right at 5/8" if that helps you at all Jeff. The paper template is exactly 5" for the wheel. The extended picture is with the strut pulled tight to full length, and the retracted position is that attained by the strut compression mechanism. We'll see after I load them if you can read the scale. -Eric Richard: note that the Clippard cylinder looks to fowl on a 5" wheel. Did your set look like this? I thought you did test operation with a 5" Glennis; let me know how everything cleared w/that set up. This strut adapted to a Robart would hopefully solve wheel fit in the wing (with the scale "bent lower strut"), and strut compression. The Aune does get the strut about as far forward as I have seen (particularly w/hollowed leading edge). Thanks for the info. Is anyone still working on a "scale" wheel/rim? Thanx Jeff |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Richard, on the telephone, I discussed your gear with Earl. He was aware, and agreed I didn't need to send him a wheel since he had just done yours with Glennis. I don't get it (the discrepancy). Anyway, he's a good guy, and his gear ought to be an option here for the myriad reasons brought up. I tried to reach him at his e-mail address..but that is stale now I guess. I'll figure it out. I am sure not an issue.
Jeff, I was kinda interested in a response to the Aune gear from you and others vis-a vis being the best solution to all this talk of gear fitting, along with the Robart. The 148 with a 5" wheel fit the 1/6th royal design pictured last page here (as such being a strong gear candidate), and I think the Aune design is even better in "clearancing". I hope to keep us on a thought long enough to resolve consensus for purposes of a next major goal. Your talk of coming up with some lofts of a scale airfoil in the center wing area, with respect to any gear should be of great use to us. One thing at a time?:D I was trying to provide answers with pictures and descriptions for all of us to evaluate. Certainly note that the placement of the strut close to the leading edge is not equaled by anything I have seen. I hope we can scan back through many helpful posts (including my own #1421), to acheive something for the basic design parameter. If there are third and forth ideas here...let's get'em! |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
ORIGINAL: Riddle4U Richard, on the telephone, I discussed your gear with Earl. He was aware, and agreed I didn't need to send him a wheel since he had just done yours with Glennis. I don't get it (the discrepancy). Anyway, he's a good guy, and his gear ought to be an option here for the myriad reasons brought up. I tried to reach him at his e-mail address..but that is stale now I guess. I'll figure it out. I am sure not an issue. Jeff, I was kinda interested in a response to the Aune gear from you and others vis-a vis being the best solution to all this talk of gear fitting, along with the Robart. The 148 with a 5" wheel fit the 1/6th royal design pictured last page here (as such being a strong gear candidate), and I think the Aune design is even better in "clearancing". I hope to keep us on a thought long enough to resolve consensus for purposes of a next major goal. Your talk of coming up with some lofts of a scale airfoil in the center wing area, with respect to any gear should be of great use to us. One thing at a time?:D I was trying to provide answers with pictures and descriptions for all of us to evaluate. Certainly note that the placement of the strut close to the leading edge is not equaled by anything I have seen. I hope we can scan back through many helpful posts (including my own #1421), to acheive something for the basic design parameter. If there are third and forth ideas here...let's get'em! I will try to have the lofted ribs done in the next few days. Weather here was so nice today I had to take the Bonanza for a ride...:D Jeff |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
You went up in the Bonanza and you didn't call me?!?! Shame shame shame... ;)
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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Hey Richard, I haven't forgotten this site. Trying to get my JHH A-7 done for the season so I can fly it. I have my rudder and tail all framed, tailwheel built. Kinda waiting on work to pick up so I can purchase fus kit from Chad. Thinking of scratch building my main gear when I can find the time. I have the machine drawings that Earl sent me many years ago and thinking of ways to have the strut more forward but using his basic design.
I'm still following this thread and the info from everyone is great. Later, Rex |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Rex,
Glad you're still lurking and definitely keep in touch! |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
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Jeff, and anyone else, I spent quite a bit of time carefully comparing my gear to the Royal plan as it exists. The Aune compresses the strut such that a 5" wheel does fit into the Royal wheel area (the rear spar could go back an 1/8th or 1/4" for even more room. Comparing the side view next to rib W-6 shows room for a 1" wide wheel (keeping everything between upper and lower rib surface), this is at the axle. When you get to the "bottom" of the tire where in retracted position, there is a reduction to 3/4" (max tire width) between upper and lower rib surfaces. This doesn't explain everything since the wing "gull" complicates my ability to check further. Obviously it WON'T work if the side by side comparison next to a rib is too tight. The scale airfoil is almost imperative in this area to fit the gear, I think. The fact that scale is more symetrical compared to the more "flatter" bottomed Royal, should give as much clearance as we can get with an airfoil. Going up to as big as 5 1/3" for scale size wheel really would make things tough, and absolutely require the lifting mechanism. As far as I am aware, the Aune is the only gear that accomplishes this. Anyone discussing the gear needs to understand what the lifting mechanism is to understand. Please ask if you are confused by the term "lifting mechanism", I just don't want to assume knowledge on everyone's part (we've seen where that gets us..hahaha). Also, if you core out the balsa leading edge in front of the gear mechanism (by 1/4" or so), this places the strut essentially "dead on" the scale strut location when extended. Here's a few more pictures, and I hope helpfull. The last picture shows the strut retraction limit! A small mod may allow an up-lock in precisely the necessary retracted angle. Of course the strut can be set for different angles in the retracted position the "twist" spoken of.
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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
I spent some time looking at the gear and wing this morning. Here's what I learned: The Royal root airfoil is 18% thickness to chord ratio, the same as the 230018 scale airfoil (exactly). The Royal airfoil at the wing fold is 15% thickness to chord ratio (exactly, when you add in the wing sheeting); the same as the scale 230015 airfoil here. The main reason the scale airfoil differs is in the point of maximum thickness. The scale airfoils locate the maximum thickness point further aft, this tends to thicken the aft part of the wing (helpful for the gear). Locating the maximum thickness further aft (as the scale one does) improves high speed performance. The designers of the Royal airfoil knew what they were doing apparently; putting maximum thickness further forward improves low speed performance, and generally works better for models. So...I think using the scale airfoil up to the wing fold is probably ok, and then use the Royal airfoil outboard of that. Pretty simple and safe, I think. Now my concern is my air cylinder going through the spar (as discussed here already). If I can just drill a hole for the cylinder and seperate horseshoe cut out for the strut, it should be ok as long as there is significant attention put into strengthening the spar here (maybe some carbon fiber lamination). I think what randy has proved with the 148 fit is significant also, if he got his wheel tucked fully even with the Royal wing section (and a nearly scale 5" wheel). This all basically backs up what Jeff was saying earlier (thanks Jeff). Oh and I forgot to say the Royal is 13% at the tip rib, where the scale is apparently 9%? I think that is where Royal departs the most in favor of flyability (you really can't SEE much difference from scale with the Royal design here though, as far as us scale nuts go).
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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
ORIGINAL: Riddle4U I spent some time looking at the gear and wing this morning. Here's what I learned: The Royal root airfoil is 18% thickness to chord ratio, the same as the 230018 scale airfoil (exactly). The Royal airfoil at the wing fold is 15% thickness to chord ratio (exactly, when you add in the wing sheeting); the same as the scale 230015 airfoil here. The main reason the scale airfoil differs is in the point of maximum thickness. The scale airfoils locate the maximum thickness point further aft, this tends to thicken the aft part of the wing (helpful for the gear). Locating the maximum thickness further aft (as the scale one does) improves high speed performance. The designers of the Royal airfoil knew what they were doing apparently; putting maximum thickness further forward improves low speed performance, and generally works better for models. So...I think using the scale airfoil up to the wing fold is probably ok, and then use the Royal airfoil outboard of that. Pretty simple and safe, I think. Now my concern is my air cylinder going through the spar (as discussed here already). If I can just drill a hole for the cylinder and seperate horseshoe cut out for the strut, it should be ok as long as there is significant attention put into strengthening the spar here (maybe some carbon fiber lamination). I think what randy has proved with the 148 fit is significant also, if he got his wheel tucked fully even with the Royal wing section (and a nearly scale 5" wheel). This all basically backs up what Jeff was saying earlier (thanks Jeff). Oh and I forgot to say the Royal is 13% at the tip rib, where the scale is apparently 9%? I think that is where Royal departs the most in favor of flyability (you really can't SEE much difference from scale with the Royal design here though, as far as us scale nuts go). Rich, Sorry but I had to get the compass swung and my biennial review... Next time |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Found (stumbled would be a better description) the scale location of the main spar. Its at 30% which should place the front face of the spar at 5.25 inches from the leading edge.
Jeff |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Hi all.
It's been a while since I've posted. I got the chance to see Danny's rudder and some of the small scale parts he made. Very impressive work! Danny also brought over a set of the Len Garner wheels. These are 5" tires with a molded plastic wheel. The wheel is quite a bit smaller than the scale wheels of the Corsair. As a result, I don't see a way of making them work with the rims I've been working on. I haven't had the opportunity to progress much farther along on the wheels, but hope to get back to it soon. I have to finish making the molds for the rims. I've decided to leave the drilling for the axle as a separate machining operation to be done after casting. As for tires, I was planning on going with at least 5 1/4". At 5", the tire might start to look too small for the scale rims. Having hand machined the rims, I would have to start from scratch to make a smaller set. I look forward to any thoughts, feedback and suggestions. Scott |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Scott,
Can you provide dimensions on the wheel you are working on? 5.25 dia is prob OK. The width needs to be 1.3 or less at the widest part of the tire, not the rim. Thanks! Jeff |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Jeff, How are those lofts of the scale airfoils going? I think, since you brought it up, that we should move forward with that. Apparently Chad has designed the fuse w/the scale airfoil from our favorite Paul Matt. So I would like to see development of these airfoils (rib by rib, starting with the root ribs out to w-6 I think). I would like to have a file that could be printed out full scale from your file to any of us. I go to an architechtural service that is very cheap and have them print them out for me (as I did with the original Royal). Chad, you may be able to do the same thing as Jeff as far as lofting those scale airfoils inboard as described. Randy could be as helpfull here as anyone since he looks furthest along with building. Can you give us any major advice, Randy?
I am fine with the current location of the spar, it decomplicates things in my opinion. The Royal design is mostly fine to work with, we are just tweaking it. I think that keeps us all together with people that will be building straight off the Royal plan as well. I just don't think we should modify the general Royal plan except where clearly necessary. Going to the scale airfoils up to the wing fold (just to the rib outboard of the gear), will necessitate some minor adjustment in the main spar depth and planview. That is where it gets somewhat difficult in modifying! Basically the chord line of the new (scale) ribs ought to run through the centerline of the existing Royal main spar, and the minor adjustments above and below that line drawn equidistant through the existing spar plan will become apparent. In other words, if the scale rib projects below the existing spar depth wise, the plan of the spar needs to curve to match the increased depth below the centerline (we're talking maybe an 1/8th to 3/16ths inch, I dunno). This change to scale airfoil makes the spar become the next challenge you see. But if we are talking about this let's help Chad to accomplish it, is all. Let us keep focused.:D We are nearing the one year anniversary of this thread, and having reread the first two weaks and the last three months we are still talking about the LG (lots of great stuff in the middle though, so HATS OFF!). I think when we have the basics of the airframe going, then no one will fear jumping into the project (for fear that its all going to change half way in). We do need to have a plane's airframe designed before we can start having fun though. Everything that happens between the two ribs surrounding the gear can be easily modified to suit any reasonable gear. If the gear won't fit, we must aquit!!![sm=lol.gif] |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Oh, Jeff you asked three posts ago about flap chord length. I am not sure why you asked, but we are going with the Paul Matt three-views here wherever they differ from the Royal design. That is kind of our guiding principal here the last year. Can you elaborate what you are thinking, when you post. Just curious, I leave nothing up to the imagination with my posts....fer better or worse[:o].
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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Hate to throw this into the mix, but some may want to have folding wings too. I wasn't planning on it for this particular bird, but my next one may be a carrier based plane so I will want them for it.
Any ideas should have that consideration as well, in my opinion. |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
That is a fine point RW, I think the BT drawings would guide that the best by far. I have never gotten those drawings. I was about to when you inspired me with your BT build. Maybe you are ahead of those regulars on this thread that haven't looked at those drawings. I think it would be simple enough to incorporate the planned wing fold possibility (as far as I gather) of the BT into this design at a later date. Maybe you are the best one to suggest anything specific on that Richard. By the way, in my studies here in the last week...ha ha ha (lots of rereading, but not all ..arggh), I did revisit Jorg's nice 3-d compositions. He probably would be a candidate to design our super gear (for a later decade). Just kidding, I did get a hold of a rapid prototyping firm in my area. I don't think they would do aluminum machining off of a file like Jorg could probably do, but some one can when he gets it into that kind of form (this CO. did say they used solid works files). I don't know enough about that. Going back to the wing fold, I had thought of using the thin ply skin like chad used on the stab, to cover the entire outboard wing, and with the odd line that defines the fold as part of that design (balsa sheeting inboard). I may have also mentioned somewhere mid-thread that we could have a scale cut-out where our wing is fabric covered, and continue the beautiful design philosophy we have been cooperating with chad on (the stab). One of the flaps is covered btw! Maybe we use the BT rib positions on the Royal? But then we couldn't use any of the existing Royal ribs if they are shifted out of their original spanwise location.:eek:
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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
1 Attachment(s)
ORIGINAL: Riddle4U Oh, Jeff you asked three posts ago about flap chord length. I am not sure why you asked, but we are going with the Paul Matt three-views here wherever they differ from the Royal design. That is kind of our guiding principal here the last year. Can you elaborate what you are thinking, when you post. Just curious, I leave nothing up to the imagination with my posts....fer better or worse[:o]. As for the lofting and fit of the ribs - I have verified that the scale spar drawing I have fits the scale root and wing fold airfoils at the 30% mark! That validates the spar data I have. I have lofted some of the ribs but I am trying to find the best location of the ribs on the spar, especially around the wheel area. This multitasking gives ma a headache... :( spar, ribs, gear, wheel, beer... huh? I will provide dxf files when all is ready. Attached is the preliminary dfx files for the spar but there are no rib locations yet. It will give you an idea of the spar shape tho.... You will need a dxf reader to view the file. Rename the file extension from jpg to dxf. The site wouldn't allow upload of the dxf for some reason... Jeff |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Jeff, I don't want to over complicate this task as I said. The rear spar just needs to be far enough back to accomodate our scale wheel, but if it is 5.3" as Danny intimated, we need to see if any scale wheel we are likely to use, will fit thickness wise (I am buying the Glennis, and it is 1.5"). That is why I think Chad is building a dummy center section. I think it is likely we will have to compromise here with a 5" wheel maximum. The scale airplane did everything perfect to get that tire just barely fit in the wing. Since we are already struggling with gears that work, geometrically; I say we go with the Royal design on all the spar locations (look at my salient pic, and Randy's). No one commented on my pic of the Aune placing the wheel exactly between the spars as is! Randy seems to have accomplished this with the Robart as well given Royal design (probably fits Matt drawing darn close). Chad hasn't commented on any of this but I think he has already stated that he is going with the Matt drawings as we all agreed, which include the scale airfoil. So I suggest it is all there, and Chad let's stick with what it sounds like you are moving toward. Didn't you say you were using all these scale airfoils per Matt? I don't think Jeffs question on where to put the spar vis-a-vis the scale flap chord (per Matt), answers rear spar placement. The rear spar is forward of flap line by a lot. Chad, your dummy center section will answer more questions than anything I guess. A good start on getting to our flap issue simultaneously. I think Luke mentioned that the Royal was off on the break points for the individual flaps. That is a thing to change possibly from our royal plan, and could effect rib placement, but the ribs don't have to be continuous to the TE. Just the rear "sub T.E.". Then we could relocate ribs per individual flap...just saying it is flexible in design behind the rear "sub T.E." (is there a name for that set of parts)?
So it seems the facts are: Randy has showed a 5" wheel fits a built Royal wing fine. My picture shows the Aune looks to work also (it was designed for the thinner BT wing after all, and should have no prob with a thicker stock Royal wing, let alone an even thicker scale airfoil). I am not too worried about this topic as much anymore. Let's leave the Royal spars where they lie, and make sure we have the proper DEPTHS and PROFILES on these spars and we should be fine (and aquit some gear designs for approval). I hate to say it but I don't think Scott's larger wheel diameter will be practicable (my comparisons with the plan showed a 5" wheel & gear touching everything). I think fighting the whole wing design, if it involves moving spars, for a slightly larger, albeit perfect scale tire diameter, seems less than efficacious. It may well fit, the Royal spar seperation by a hair as is (for all we know). I just think we have to be willing to compromise a little in order to move forward. Even Dave Platt said it "it doesn't have to be right..it just has to look right". A judge can't tell the difference from ten feet. We need to balance things. Pick the right battles, I guess. Scale outline is major..then fit everything within those parameters. |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
I agree with Riddle4U I know all of you want to have a actual copy of the Corsair but we all have to be pratical also. One thing that Riddle said that is not true is that the rear spar no matter which retract Aunne or 148 with a 5" wheel will need to be moved back 3/8" to give the necc. clearance. Plus when you move the rear spar rearward by 3/8" it makes the doors the correct size by my measurements. With the 148 I am not sure that a 5.3" wheel will work it is close to the front spar as it is now with a 5" wheel not sure what the Aunne gear is like I don't have any but I believe if I remember correctly Luke also had to move his spar back with Aunne gear and 5" wheel. Just to let you know the gear can not be moved back any further either they just fit where they are with no movement front or to the rear. Not that I would want to anyway because the strut is just about in the correct location to the leading edge of the wing and where I want it anyway. Remember that you are going to have to have room between the wheel and the front spar when retracted so that there will be room for door closing mechanisms. Now if you get Lenny to make a strut yes it could be longer but also remember that the further the wheel is moved to the rear when retracted the wing is thinner and where I have mine now there just isn't any room left I am maxed out the wheel can not be any bigger or thicker. Not trying to tell any of you what to do just what I see in front of me.
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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
I think you follow the geist of it Randy. I guess I don't remember refering to a 3/8ths dimension anywhere. I appreciate what you say though, Randy, as that is what I am seeing just comparing to 2d drawings. You have built it! That is what we all need to start doing. I revisited my TW and was going to cut all the parts now that I have my disc sander. Sam, maybe you can help also(Tom hasn't been around for awhile). My printouts for what I thought were the latest TW design have a scale legend, and I checked it with my scale on that inch legend. I am off by a 1/16th or so. Also rereading those early posts, the pivot-to-axle was 148cm? I was at 140cm. Chad, I think you may be able to help too. The drawings had borders and seemed to be intended to print on standard printer paper. Why am I not getting proper dimensions? Can I get a link or a file again on the latest TW design? I was sure I was ready to start smelling solder fumes..ha ha. Thanks !
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RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Riddle,
When you print the tailwheel drawings, be sure to deselect the option "scale to fit" in your printer software. Danny |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
ORIGINAL: warks62 I know all of you want to have a actual copy of the Corsair but we all have to be pratical also. Yes, I want a 1/6 Corsair that looks like a REAL, full scale, Corsair. To me, the most noticeable parts (excluding the overall outline) are the wings, gear, and cockpit. I agree that we must take liberties when we have to and there has certainly been a lot of discussion regarding the wings and gear, but I'm challenging you all to make it work. I guess I'm just stubborn, stupid, or both, but it's not clicking why we can't do it. I don't like that word "CAN'T"! We are building scaled down versions of a real plane so if a 32" x 8" wheel fits in the full scale wing, at 1/6 scale a 5.33" x 1.33" wheel should fit in our wing. Keep in mind that we started with Royal plans and Matt views but it is up to us, our collective creative influences that will overcome these obstacles. Many of you have already contributed with tremendous insight and ingenuity that have lead the group forward with this building endeavor. Instead of saying it won't work, I would like to hear something like, "in order to get it to work we will need to do this...." and then each builder can decide if they want to take that road or not. |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
OK I'll keep my work outside the thread so I don't slow you down. I will loft a set of ribs for the Royal spar locations. Keep in mind they will NOT fit the Royal spar. The Royal spar is not deep enough. For those that want to continue down this path you can PM me. I'll post updates on the thread occasionally to keep y'all posted
Cheers Jeff |
RE: 1/6 Scale F4U Corsair Group Build
Jeff you are not slowing us down - I think you are helping do it right. Please keep posting!
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