whiteknight1066

Ahoy the forum! You all are such a supportive and informative community, and Iwanted to give cudos to all the guys helping other tankers out here. I've asked a series of questions and gotten some very helpful and informative replies, and here Iam again with my newest question. I intend to put recoil into my HL Pz IV, and want to get an accurate barrel. I've seen the Tank Modellbau version, but I'm not sure I want to try it. For one thing, there seems to be some issues with supply from them (according to Welsh Dragon), so Ihave no idea if Ican even procure the part I want. The other concern is that while it may look right, the 7.5cm KwK 37L24 barrel fro mthem may not function correctly, and that leads me to my question:

How does the barrel and recoil assembly function on the 1:1 scale model? Or to put it another way, how doesthe real thing work . I can't tell if the whole thing beyond the wide part that sticks out of the mantlet (the part shrouding the recoil cylinders, Ithink) recoils back, or if only the very end part, the narrow protrusion, recoils back into a wider housing. Ihope that was clear, and Ican explain it better if needs be. Anyone know? If the whole assemble recoils I can just buy the part, but if it's a gun tube that travels inside a larger housing I'll build my own. As usual, thanks for the help!


Andrew

whiteknight1066

Sorry, I'll be a bit more specific; this is the F1 model Pz IV.

yellowshaker

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ETOarmor.com uis the answer to your latest question. Contact Bob and tell him Yellowshaker sent ya!

sevoblast

The barrel itself recoils in to the rectangular mantlet support protruding from the convex mantlet shield.

pattoncommander

That 75mm is a low velocity howitzer, not a HV gun and has the typically overly complicated German stepped recoil mechanism. The only portion that moves into recoil is the end section of the gun tube, about 18 inches, which retracts into the second housing (onto which the antennas guard is mounted.) The recoil distance is about the length of the straignt portion of the guard to where it breaks into the Y shaped section. Average recoil is 10-14 inches on most guns of the WW II era.

sevoblast

I stand corrected.

whiteknight1066

Ah-HA! That's what Ithought. Looks like the aftermarket stuff won't work right (Ithink they're all single-piece units), so Igots some scratchin' to do! Pattoncommander, thanks for the detailed info, and Iappreciate the help Sevoblast .

Mathom1

Might ping these guys....
[link]http://www.welshdragonmodels.co.uk/tank-modellbau-75cm-kwk-l24-short-barrel-recoiling-for-heng-long-panzer-iii-116-scale-807-p.asp[/link]

looks like thay have one (out of stock) for the P IV as well

[link]http://www.welshdragonmodels.co.uk/tank-modellbau-75-cm-barrel-recoiling-asiatam-system-kwk-37l24-ausf-de-for-heng-long-panzer-iv-826-p.asp[/link]

pattoncommander

Both of those look pretty Mickey Mouse. First one is missing half the gun tube (2nd step) and the second appears to have the whole tube recoiling, which is wrong...also missing the antenna guard. [&:] I guess some changes have to be made for small RC stuff, but then again, if you want to repesent accurate history...do it right.

CountChocula

When I did my Bandai PzIV build, I used a Tamiya Tiger I recoil unit along with the flash unit. The end piece of the barrel would recoil back into the barrel sleeve basically. Works (or I should say worked!) really well. I know it's not an exactly correct to the F1 in modelling terms, but it looked close enough for me!

http://web.mac.com/ethandunsford/DAK...usf_F1.html#35

Dave

pattoncommander

The F2 would look "neater" as the long gun tube recoils into the larger sleeve and you can see more movement. Tiger I the same system. Somehow, anything Germany made was overly complicated....the US recoil systems were so much simpler and easier to maintain.

Whitenight...I think a little finagling would make the after market stuff a little more believable. Placing a stationary sleeve around the L24 gun over the secondary step to show only the forward inch recoiling might be the thing. The whole gun tube could recoil, but you'd only see the movement of the muzzle end.

What I'm waiting for is for someone to integrate a CO2 or air puff directed at the ground by the muzzle. That would make it SO much more realistic over the flash and stupid HL tank jump with a bit of dust/talcum kicked up when the main gun fires.

whiteknight1066

Have you been following the htread about the smoking barrel? There's a guy (forget who) who's managed to hook up a smoke unit to the barrel and have it trigger when he fires. That combined with the flash unit make for a pretty decent fire effect!

yellowshaker

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Yes, that is Normand! he has done some great work on making smoke units work much better, and his smoking gunmod is a really nice effect...

thecommander

Hi Bill, I'm looking forward to you and Don coming to Danville at the end of April.

You bring two Greman phrases to mind that were driven into my head when I was a kid from my Umpah and father.... "Ordnung muss Sein" ... "Evererything must be in order/proper" and "Ganz Praziert" ... "High precision". They simply just can't help themselves. After all, anything worth doing is worth doing right. Apparently these were not the best values to have in the mad rush of war production. Good thing for us.

pattoncommander

That was interesting...recall seeing it. But the smoke happens after the gun fires and the gun is back in battery. Normally is caused by a new round being slammed into the breech or when the air pressure equalises and the bore evacuator releases the fumes it had sucked up. I'm looking at a puff of air/CO2 near the muzzle as the gun fires to kick up dust as always happens. (unless you are sitting in a foot of mud or snow)

Commander, I won't be an Danville. If I was going to be there, I'd just bring my Israeli platoon.

On the German recoil system; typical German, effective but over complicated. The gun tube had a ring & connectors on the first or muzzle end that connected to a plate in the second stage, which was fastened to the dual recoil pistons in the oval recoil housing. Bad part is there are too many interconnecting parts and most of the recoil assembly was outside, prone to enemy fire. On the Sherman, Pershing and M-46, we had dual recoil cylinders at the lower sides of the recoil housing inside the turret. The M-47 was much better with the concentric hydrospring, with a spring wrapped around the gun tube inside a cylinder filled with hydraulic fluid. This provided a much smaller recoil system, only one fluid level to check and more room in the turret. (and easier to clean) Same system on the M-48-60s and believe the same on the Abrams.

strmnd54

That was interesting...recall seeing it. But the smoke happens after the gun fires and the gun is back in battery. Normally is caused by a new round being slammed into the breech or when the air pressure equalises and the bore evacuator releases the fumes it had sucked up. I'm looking at a puff of air/CO2 near the muzzle as the gun fires to kick up dust as always happens. (unless you are sitting in a foot of mud or snow)

pattoncommander

Don't have any videos...just many years of firing 76, 90 and 105mm tank guns. Look at any of the flicks on military chanel and you'll see lots of Abrams etc firing. You will see the blast and dust kicked up, and if the tank is sitting, you'll see a wisp of smoke...not much, leaving the muzzle. (This will not even be noticed if the tank is rolling cross country.) That's the fumes being released from the bore evacuator when the air presure equalizes. A tank main gun will not "smoke" when fired....all that goes down range with the blast. Of course, when a tank starts firing when it's -20, the gun warms up very fast and there will be a bit of steam...not smoke, if it continues to fire.

I've been thinking of this for a long time, but I'm not into electronics. Best would be a tube in the bore, coming out the bottom just behind the muzzle brake (or muzzle) aimed at the ground. It would have to be timed to kick a small puff of air/CO2 at the same time the gun fires, to give the affect of a blast. Guess it would be kosher to have it under the tank, but then a Stu or SU-100 would be a good candidate by not having a turret and not much deflection. Maybe, if the source had enough push, it could be mounted in the mantlet , maybe just under the gun. Not an easy thing, but if someone does come up with the mechanism., it would add a lot realism to an RC tank. I was thinking of the small CO2 cartidges we used to use in some air pistols but the trick would be to design a valve to release a very short puff in conjunction with the main gun firing switch.

strmnd54

I've been watching a lot of my WWII footages yesterday ...

pattoncommander

Good luck on the StuG. If you can design such a contraption, it would be a good item to sell....to those interested in being realistic.

I'm looking for a StuG III plain Jane....All I see adverstized now is the ones upgraded and with battle units. Too expensive for my neeeds of providing another Syrian target for my IDF Shermans. They had about 60 of them.