Rebellion13

Dan, I hear ya. also in reference to the slot cars, yes I remember the afx HO scale and running those as a kid, and you needed som type of skill to keep them from flying off the track, then they came out with cars with the super duper magnets, and you just nailed the throttle and watched them sail around and around, really took the skill and fun out of it. As far as enjoying the tank battles I know I would love it and the pro's would out weigh the con's, I still haven't been able to even make it to one of our NEAD events, someday someday.

Cheers,
Wade

Pershing.Driver

Tanks at danville run at scale road speed with a 5 smph grace. There are those who think we should use off-road speed.

I will share battle knowledge with anyone new or otherwise. And will make tank upgrade recommendations when asked.

As for sweeps, lags, and pop shots are all basically same thing that is that the tank is moving while the IR is on.

As soon as someone comes up with a viable system that stops the tank when firing I will buy it. It's hard enough running events that the added stress of having to referee stop-n-shoot is simply too much.

So if you want a sns event talk to Karen and schedule an event. I promise to be there to support your efforts and will even come for the workday before the event


Cheers
James

YHR

I saw you in action James last April, and I'll vouch for the effort you put in just getting the tanks to pass the minimum requirments. It is real easy to sit down and type up all kinds of scenerios, but it is another thing completely to monitor and enforce the rules.

I had fun at Danville even though there were a couple of things not to my liking. I guess the point I am making is that there is fun to be had, even if the fan shot and scooters are not your cup of T. Just be thankful and enjoy.

pattoncommander

It never fails to amaze/amuse me why so many nice tanks I have seen at Danville are so exact in external features, proper coloration, correct markings and to some extent, historical background of a particular tank....one would think that a little interest would be generated to operate that tank as the real one it represents. But then to see that supurbly modelled tank jump out behind a burm, shoot and jump back.."peek a boo..I shot you" like a 10 year old playing war.... As was stated, scale modeling is a large part of the hobby, but for some reason, that aspect disappears when the tank is on an RC field and it sinks more into the absurd as the
"maneuvering" progresses. Is it any wonder why you see sooooo many Tigers, KTs & JTs with TBUs? Take off at 80 mph, hit targets on the move and takes a zillion hits to knock it out. (all totally unrealistic)...and you have the TBU with the super long 1 sec IR beam, giving you the advantage. Forget realism and how a real tank (which you are attempting to replicate) operates. Tamiya should redesign the TBU to have an IR beam of much shorter duration and narrower beam. Aside from the eye safety factor, a lazer would be ideal, requiring an exact aim to hit a target. Everyone is looking for a gimmik to insure hits and prevent being hit, but fan shots and ridiculous speed and maneuvering is so far away from tank operation, that it isn't worth the effort. OK, it's a game, but with so much maticulous modeling and detailing on some of the tanks, where did realism go when the tracks hit the sand? .

James, I have seen toooo many tanks at Danville running WAY over your indicated 5 mph speed....forward and reverse....and NO TANK represented at Danville outside of a LEO had the ability of firing on the move with any degree of accuracy. T-34s did it for scare tactics, but rarely was anything hit. Some Shermans had a stabilizer...horizontal only, but they were so erratic and beset with problems, that most were simply shut off or removed. .On the battlefield roads, up to 20-25 mph could be expected (however not normal in a combat area) however off road and into town, that normally would drop to 5 mph, and very rarely alone. Stopping to fire is not just stop and shoot...the driver stops, THEN, the TC completes his lay, gunner makes final lay and fires. It's not a 2 second stop shoot n scoot matter if one wants to be realistic. A switch on the fire button to stop the tank would be a waste unless a 5-8 second delay from stop to fire is built in.

takevin

I have yet of course not participated in a IR battle since I just got my two tanks this past week, but that type of game battle seems pretty weak and cheesy. No different then playing to me online with the xbox 360 and you have some cheesehead with a modded controller or starts glitching a game like L4D. Same lame tactics. As said, you have a tank thats all decked out to look real and then it starts running around like an r/c car instead of a prototypical tank, that's pretty lame doing tactics like that.

Panther F

You are right Bill, but it is what it is and will only be changed if everyone is on board. I think the Turnigy is a step in the right direction ... maybe a mandatory controlling chip for that day implementing a speed limit and throttle response.

Or maybe a transmitter/controller restriction to control these tanks more realistically?

I'll play the game no matter what is laid out and will not complain. But I think that certain groups can start their own program towards these goals and sometime soon it will catch on.


~ Jeff

whiteknight1066

My personal opinion (and we all know what opinions are like, everyone has one...) is that there should be classes, like auto racing. An open class where guys that love the engineering adn tech can let it all hang out, a standard class that represents the state of the art now, and a "classic" class or somesuch that would require momentum, shorter IRbursts and narrower emiters, all of that to make it more "realistic". You would, of course, be able to run a "slower" class in a higher match (such as a "classic" in a "stock" match), but the slower tanks would be protected in "their" classes. That way people like James, that like their tech and eek every advantage they can out of it (which is, lets face it, a valid way of playing) can have their matches but won't have to chafe under the "artificial" restrictions of a slower class. Likewise, people like DJ and Thecommander that do NOT like the fan shot, etc can have matches where their preferences are catered to and, of course, are welcome to run a faster tank ina more advanced match if they like. This seems reasonable to me. What do you all think?

no12skyline

Realism is great, till you realise that in real life, one shot was all that it took to kill or at least disable a tank, especially if it came from the muzzle of a mid-to-late war German tank. That's not too fun for the Allied tank drivers either. The German side wouldn't like every third tank to be a non-starter to simulate wartime fuel shortages or mechanical breakdowns either. Too much realism could actually kill the fun factor.

I recall there's a recent thread where a Leopard owner was commenting about his tank freezing after firing a shot, maybe that is the way to go? It prevents shoot and scoot, and also sweep shots. So I suppose Tamiya has been quietly working to iron out the bugs in their system. The problem is that they can't retrospectively apply it to the tanks that came before.

DaveBcool

I think the classes idea is a good one, as long as an event has the numbers to support it.

I think the Leo 2 stops when it is hit, not when it shoots.

TheBennyB

Problem with a class system is you could start to alienate people, which you never want to do in a hobby background.

TheBennyB

Stop and shoot battles won't work either, we've done some experimenting on that and anything longer that a 2 second delay after stopping
gives your target enough time to atleast get turret defense on you.  So the last two tanks standing pretty much sit there and look at each other for
10 minutes and it comes down to whoever has the quickest turret. 

Green Amphibian

As stated many times before, it is what it is. State the rules for the battle before you start it and abide by them. Simple to do if everyone follows the stated rules. If you do not like the stated rules, say so and see if the next battle is more to your liking. No one is being forced to compete or to even attend any battle. Know the rules ahead of time and abide by them as much as you can. Meet the initial inspection check and make any changes you need to do to do so. Classes are a great idea if there are enough tanks to have a battle in them. My 2 cents for what it is worth.

pattoncommander

Getting turret defense is aother gimmik that isn't present in a tank vs tank scenario, as with having a faster turret. That should play a very insignificant part when confronting an enemy tank. In tk vs tk tactics, the front slope with heaviest armor is always facing your target, so directing the driver where your tank is facing the target (when possible) is the first move, (preferably in defilade) then traversing the turret close to where the gunner IDs the target and can make his final lay. In fighting another tank, the gun is VERY rarely over the side...that's for firing at targets that are not such a threat to you. Of course, in RC, seems it doesn't matter whether you have 6 inches of armor or one half inch...it's based on your tanks classification. A KT can be taken out by a round of HE to the track or sprocket or splash a WP onto the turret, or Sherman gets a shot at the engine deck of a Tiger, and a Panther can dispatch a Sherman with one well placed round. These cannot be programmed into RC battling, so there's a world of difference, so guess there will always be a debate on realism in RC battles..

Green Amphibian

Yes there will always be a difference, and we all need to recognize it and live with them. We are not going to be able to make them totally realistic. I got into this because I enjoy building and watching them perform. As a tank driver I'm not so hot, but I still enjoy it.

girltankette

The Tank Museum does not ban the fan shot - some like it and some don't - each event is different with different tankers participanting. At any event held by the Tank Museum, participants can change the fan shot rule by a majority, If more people want it then that it how it is played, if more people do not want it, then again that is how the event is played.Or you can try to make everyonehappy and split the days,one day allow it and one day do not allow it. In most cases banning the fan shot is basic gentlemen rules as there is no way to electronically stop it at present.
All other events held by other clubs will have their own set of rules and will hopefully be open to changes when needed.
Baron Fel - If in fact "Maybe this hobby is not for you" was the response that you received, I would like to apologize for this rude comment for whoever made it.
Karen/Girltankette

mustclime

This thread reads like a scca autoX racer thread, there are some people saying things are not fair andothers saying rules are ment to be bent as long as you win. What i am seeing as a n00b is there are going to be ir battle tanks andvery realistic rc tanks. Ir battle tanks need to be fast and light, so there should not be any metal on them. Heckthere should notbe fenders, tools or anything on them. I am kinda suprized people have not "hoppedup" the turret motors forwider coverage fan shots.I could even see light weight battle batterys andloosing the sound cards and smokers for weight savings for your lightweight sports battle tanks.

But again, i am just a n00b.

dlobmwm3

My Feedback: (2)

For what it is worth, my $0.02...

I am new to the hobby since Feb 2011 with my son who started at 5 y/o. I didn't know that this was such a hot topic in the history of Tamiya Armor nor how much of a hot topic it was at the last NEAD event in Danville. We were in attendence for all of the battle days in Danville for 2011 and enjoyed ourselves by both NEAD and HEAT host members despite getting killed with the Fan/Swing shot. Given the fact that we were so new, we thought this was part of the way you were supposed to battle and how the battle system was built to work. We asked all regular participants on how to defend and execute the fan/swing shot. When we asked for help and information on battling with the TBU, someone ALWAYS took the time to teach us, specifically Dana Lowell, Bob Held, Doug Gasser, and James Newman Stewart. We never questioned whether it was fair or unfair since this was how the battle system was built.
Was it built by design or a defect? Either way it is what it is.

So after every battle weekend we went back home and practiced what we witnessed and how to perform the same fan/swing shot with how to defend this. To defend yourself you either put your turret in defensive position and make sure you are outside of 10 ft OR climb a hill to tilt your apple if you are inside 10ft. I also had a Leo 2A6 that would stop dead in its tracks (movement) for 1 - 1.5 secs each time it got shot. I confirmed with another Leo owner and it too did the same thing. I contacted Tamiya USA and Japan about this behavior and they both noted that this was by design. They would not refund me any money nor exchange it out for another kit. It is what it is. So Tamiya is designing certain features for the TBU and certain tanks. So to combat this I made sure I didn't get put into positions of close quarter combat with more than 1 tank, otherwise I was a sitting duck.

I guess its hard for me to understand the option of excluding this if it is legal in competitions. I just think its part of the battle system. I don't believe its any different than playing any combat game on the XBox or PSX. By learning these tactics, it will only make you a better rc tanker. Don't get me wrong I understand why folks are so up in arms about the fan/swing shot because both my son and I were in the same shoes all year long. We didn't know how to execute and defend this but after plenty of practice and deaths we have become more comfortable in executing and defending against this manuever. My recommendation would be to shadow someone that uses this technique next time folks that are in Danville and have them teach you.It will only make you stronger and better. Or if its too complex divide the tankers into divisions/classes.

YHR

I agree to some point. It is what it is. If you want to be successful then learn how to make the most out of the equipment.

Truth is though, I think there are a growing number of people, who just don't like it. The question is, "how much don't they like it". Enough to turn away and go do something else??? Hopefully the answer to that is no, but that is the risk if clubs aren't accomodating to a new way of thinking.

TheBennyB

Do people not like or can't do it?  I didn't like it either till I lit up four tanks with one shot and thought that's absolutley hilarious!
anywho, I'll just play to the rules of the event I'm at.

Panther F

They've already mentioned twice that it can be voted on, so why the turning away and "go do something else"? I'll show up with no preamble and do what everyone does ... whether I like it or not. [8D] But, I know I'll like it.

GAWD!! I hope I can make it next year now more than ever!!


~ Jeff

YHR

I don't think it has anything to do not having the skill. It is all about the function. My objective outsider, when reviewing the Danville videos for the first time, just thought it looked ridiculous, and wondered with all the new technology why someone woud operate tanks like this. He started offering up all kinds of suggestions to "fix the problem"

Ex_Pat_Tanker

I must admit that I had a high 'ole time at a recent UK club meet doing precisely that on a polished wooden floor - my fellow club mates were less impressed tho... [&o] Most of the time in the UK we are battling on long grass, so the fanshot is not really possible to pull off anyway.

In Detroit we tried the "stop before you shoot" rule, but that needs a lot of self discipline to adhere to in the heat of battle. We agreed amongst ourselves that we wouldn't use the fan shot - as we were all new to this anyway it was easy not to 'get into the habit' so to speak.

From my own personal perspective there is a difference between snapping of a shot 'Red Army Style' whilst moving in a straight line in the hope of hitting something, and firing while spinning on the spot - sweeping 45 degs as you go...

But that said I'm not about to march into another club's house and insist they adapt my rules just because I don't like theirs!

YHR

Roger on that

YHR

I had a great time at Danville, regardless of the fan shot. Like any game as long as you know the rules going in what is there to complain about? Nobody heard me ***** and complain, I had too big a smile on my face. Heng Long superspin on, Fire!!!!!!! . Should cover about 180 Degrees. I am just asking the board hypothetical questions about what new comers are thinking about this hobby. Remember the thread was started by someone who has doubts about the fan shot, and was wondering if anyone has banned it. There has also been a couple of posts suggesting the Fan shot caused some hard feelings. Just saying.

Personally like Ex pat Tanker says, when I am in someone elses building I play by their rules and am I happy guest. I found the Danville guys to be very accomodating, and never saw anything other the great hospitality shown to everyone.

Still doesn't mean we should shy away for discussion on the topic.

I talked to David who designed the DBC and he said he can easily program out the fan shot , and make it so tanks have to stop before firing, if that is what people want. He designed the DBC to mimic the Tamiya system, so it behaves like a Tamiya system, but it doesn't have to. Unfortunately these "improvements" would put you at a huge disadvantage when going up against a Tamiya tank, so it is a pretty tough sell, and it seems as if eveyone is adopting the Tamiya standard, warts an all. I'll ask David if he can program this option as a user selectable option at start up. If a guy could turn this development on or off in the startup programming phase of the DBC then it has a chance to be a feature.

thecommander

I knew this post would go on and on. As the CO of the host club for that event I asked for voluntary cooperation via "gentlemans agreement" to not use the sweep shot for the rest of the day(Sat.). The die hard sweepers (only 2 or so of the 30 tankers attending ) grumbled, but they did comply and all went well. On Sunday I made no such request but I believe the "agreement" was still honored by all present. We had a fantastic 3rd day of tanking. Case in point: Dana and I have both attended Texas Armored Assn. battle-weekends at Monaville. Since they had no expereince with the fan shot Dana could have killed them by the score, at will, with his Sherman. It would be like shooting ducks in a barrel. He would have worn out his welcome in a heartbeat and insulted his generous hosts. A true gentleman, Dana kept that trick, borne of ultra competition battles, in check and enjoyed a fine weekend with a really great group at a first rate battlefield. He forewarned me before I went the following year about some of the diferences I would encounterd both pro and con. I didn't have to change too much since I am not a sweep shooter or 45 degree defense guy. They had a bit of an upper hand since many of their tanks lacked gun strobes to track firing times and several apples had hidden LEDs and I could even tell if I hit them or if they were knocked out. Sound was all I had to go by and it was not easy with RC planes flying about. I still had a great time and can't wait to see them all again. Mike, Gene, Tomas were all great guys and I do hope to see them soon at Danville. Save that sweep shot for the competition battles with organized teams. But DO NOT forget what effect they had. I know the sweepshot has driven people away. We must change to suit our attendees needs. If they are not happy they will not return.


Karen, I have heard that statement several times "If you don't like it (fan shot) this may not be the hobby and/or place for you" spoken by more that one person. It was said to me years ago and I was VERY put off by it. I have also heard it several times since by a few people who's names I will take to my grave. I think their zest for competition made them loose sight of what our goal should be with rookies, first-timers, and as caretakers of this wonderful RC tank venue at Danville. That short-sighted statement bothered me each time I heard it. But I bit my lip and did not let is dampen my spirit. I still had fun and learned more each time I went there to improve my skills. I even practiced that sweep shot at home and with my girls. But I just couldn't get over how bizzare and freakish it looked from a 40+ ton tank. Now the attending public is taking notice. I gave me NO satisfaction in using it. It felt like a hollow victory when I pulled it off and saw the faces of my vanquished daughters. We have to draw line somewhere. Mine is at the sweep shot. Anyone who knows me knows where I stand on it. We need to keep our goals in sight....Promote this RC tank battle hobby at Danville for the mutual enjoyment of all involved.

Let's work together in the spirit of copperation and try to keep it more realistc, reasonable, fair and most importantly... FUN!!!!

Bob Held, NEAD CO