DirtyBird69

love the build..this thing is gonna rock! Just curious as to what the final goal is(I'm a little confused)? I see you going with an E-50 chassis/suspension, but an E-100 style turret....I'm confused.......or is this gonna be a "what-if" kinda thing(which I LOVE)?

Also wondering if the E-50 turret was the same as the Panther F albeit a different gun/mantlet set-up??

mustclime

The e50 never had a turret designed for it. The tinnie turret that was for the panther f was designed for the panther's 75mm gun. For some reason peole always assume the panther f turret would go on the e50 since the e50 was to replace the panther and the tiger 1. IMO the panthers 75mm was obsolete by 45 with the m26 and js2&3 comming onto the battle field. That would mean the king tigers 88mm would be the next choice ......but if you put a scale drawing of that gun into a tinnie turret it looks something like this....

note the shell aganst the turret ring.....not good. There was a turret designed for the e100 that looked something like this....

the E100 turret was designed for the 126mm gun in the hunting tiger so this design would leave a bunch of room for the 88. Since the e-series tanks were designed by Adler( a car compeny) for ease of preduction. My thought would be that there would not be bent or curved armor plates used in the turret. The fastest way to make a turret is sand casting it like the allies were doing it on both fronts. The next fastest way to make a turret is to just burn through a lot of armor plate steel and fit the peaces togather in a jig and weild them togather.....but who knows, its a paper panzer. thats half the fun.

DirtyBird69

oh ok..makes sense now...thanks for the educationlearn something new everyday...the box turret looks better anyways(more proportioned).

MAUS45

Musclime you need to be careful with that word assume. [8D] I have attached some excerpts for reference, only not to be copied, from "Germany's Panther Tank, The Quest For Combat Supremacy", by Thomas L. Jentz Scale Drawings by Hilary Louis Doyle. I know this is a paper panzer, but the Schmalturm did make it into prototype production and was to be used on the late Panther G and Panther F, but, there is always a but, did you know that the Germans also wanted to develope the Schmalturm to use the L43 88 from the Tiger II? Read what follows and look at the drawings from Krupp as well and pay close attention to the last drawing. Looks very similar to the one you posted to show that this was not possible. May be a tight fit, but possible? Something to consider because as we all know it didn't go into production. So it could be a possibility for a tank that didn't go into production? This is the stuff forums were made for, more education!!!!

DirtyBird69

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DirtyBird69

Man this site is really falling apart..cant post anything without screw ups..thought these pics might help a bit in your turret work...

mustclime

I am sure those are the same pics, I just found mine off the interweds with no copywrite stuff attached. Maus, look at that last pic...raze or lower the gun 5 degrees and put yourself in the loaders seat...that shell is to scale...now think what it would be like putting a shell into the breach in a moving tank and remember smacking the nose of the shell on the breach can have some very bad out comes......That turret with that gun is not workable....in late 44 -early 45, if the little corprel told you shoehorn a l43 88 into the the small turret, your failor to do so would result2 out comes....the back of your head became wall art, or you found yourself on theeastern front holding amodel 98facing 20 t34/85's.....but thats jmo

mustclime

those are great, thanks....

MAUS45

I agree with you, especially if you read the three questions Krupp was asking, that,"That turret with that gun is not workable". I was only trying to show that the German tank design team was trying to design a Schmalturm that would accommodate the L43 88 of the Tiger II for the Panther G and Panther F. Krupp went on to show that something as simple as increasing the turret ring by 100mm total would have accomplished adding enough room to the Schmalturm to accommodate the L43 88. Another point I think we can agree on is that if they had produced this turret they may have used it on some of the "E" designs. That is where most tank aholics assume, connect the dots, or close the circle about the use of the Schmalturm on so many of the paper panzers. And I want to be sure that you understand that I am in no way trying to persuade you to use the Schmalturm on your build. It is you creation and needs to be what you invision. I was only trying to show all possibilities. Personally I like what DirtyBird69 posted as an example. You would be able to use the Porsche Cupola and buldge, you cut off the original turret, and attach it to the turret you have created thus far. Very cool stuff.

mustclime

Thanks for the imput, thisstuff is all what if anyway....I am first and formost making this tank to be a fighter. That is one of the reasons I am trying to keep most of the inner workings hl turret. Another issue withthe turret design is fitting all of this in there.....





As it is I need to increase the negative gun tube angle so I can use it for the slope defance....If the hl kt's have a design weakness its gun tube elevation angles.

Panther G

The Germans realized late that then Panther was too much tank for the size gun they could use in it so yes the 75mm was obsolete as early as 1943.  The only thing saving it was it's performance, but still was becoming to small of a gun for so much weight in the Panther. Little return on the investment. The Panther was also considered to vulnerable from the sides and rear but adding more armor really wasnt' an option as the Panther was over weight as is.

whiteknight1066

Mustclimb, I'll have to show you the HL recoil mod I'm working on. I won't be at the next battle day, but if Ican get all my homework done and STILL get the mod done, I'll show it to you in March. Basically, when you do YHR's mod to the HL recoil system (which involves turning the unit around in the turret):

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=8427967&key=

you find that there's about an inch to 1.5 inches that can be trimmed off the back (whisch used to be the front). If you then make a new tab on the back (formerly front, now with a nose job) you can move the elevation motor up a concomitant distance. Or alternately, you could use the elevation motor that comes in the Stug (get one from Phil, like $8.00 or so) and put it off to the side. This is a lot of work; you have to rewire the recoil unit (adding a microswitch), chop off the former front part of the motor housing, and manufacture new...crap, the things cannons elevate on...trunions? Anyway. Just saying, don't let space turn you off to your build, it can be done!

mustclime

I am more interested in making the turret lower than shorter. Another issue with the tinnie turret was ballance...great big gun out the front means you need some weight on the back....an example of this was the super pursing and the firefly. Most tanks of thistime had the turret held in place br thier weight, you get thing out of ballance, you end up with a KV2 that couldnotmove the turret on a hill...

Plastic scouser

I like this guys take on the E75 turret http://kswong8d.blogspot.com/2011/09...pak44-l55.html

Cheers Ian

mustclime

I have seen that...very cool to look at, it has some issues with the drivers and hull gunners hatch clearance. Look at the last pic, any turret movment with the drivers head out of the hatch would result in a ver bad day for the driver.

That turret also looks like It would be very hard to produce and the ease of production was the main reason for the E series.

mustclime

Back to the turret.....did a lot of thinking about turrets in wwII.....If you really think about it, for the most part everyone but the germans were doing cast turrets by the mid point of the war. The main reason for this was man hours needed for each turret. So It goes to reason that if the germans were going to come out with the E series tanks to simplfy production and and parts supply, something like the turret would need to be simple to make...that means imo no fancy armor plate bending like the panther , tiger or king tiger. Just roll out the rolled armor plates, lay a pattern on them and burn out the shape.

I started by adding a base to the turret....

and glueing everything to gather....

next I made every thing smoooooooth..

and add some .8mm card for the edges of the plates...

and let dry.....

mustclime

While everthing was drying i went to work on the rear excape hatch.....cut out the old hl kt hatch

add a back....to give it some thickness...

make another handle out of a paper clip and drill some hex stock

and nuts on the handle....

everything on the turret is dry, so I brake out the dremmel with a cutting disk and make the .8mm plastic card look like torch cut armor plate

and thats it for now.

karel47

am curieus how it developes

mustclime

Been bissy sanding and working on the turret....found these and thought I would post them,,,,because they were interesting when designing my turret...










Kinda shows a common design flaw with the german tank design....maybe i will fix that with my VK3002 DB prodject...

with any luck I will finish the last of the edging and weld lines on the turret tonight..then I can start adding some details...pics to come.

mustclime

Well its just been details and more details.....Istarted assing more seam work...







and got the rear hull plates up to scale thickness....don't know how I missed this on the kt...



added some primer to look for issues...







some seams for the lower hull....



and some tiger 1 rear fenders...With any luck, the hinges will work..





And I decided that Ineed some torch cut sides on the top f the turret...



I wold have gotten more done but it seams I need to spend more time on the new battle field....
I need t decise on how I am doing the turret hatches,,,,and finish the mantel.

later

Strato50

It's really coming together! I like your seam work a lot, that turret is quite literally a fortress on wheels.

its going to look super mean with the gun!

Buckeye36

My Feedback: (3)

Looking good Scott!

mustclime

I have scaled the plate thickness for the turret at6 inches for the front and5-4 inch forthe sideand rear.........I was reading a report on the king tigers armor pretection last night and it noted that the fenders were not correctly designed to protect the tank from "heat" rounds( cone shaped charges). It said the panzer 4 had a much better designfor this with the steppedout sheat armor......I am Kinda thinking about cutting off the fenders and using something like a panzer 4 set up. I am not sure how I would make that ir battle proof though.

mustclime

almost - kinda thinking about something like this......

mustclime

Got some more time tonght.....more detail work....

added the torch cut marks in the upper turret....



and the finel roof peace woth my new welder....



nothing like a baby hypo from sto and shop...tht the the tester glue "tubes" that fitover it like they were made for each other...

and let the welding begin....







here is the first look at the mantel...with the ir tube attached and a casting seam....still need work



I think I am going to give in.....I wanted this turret to be as easy as possible to produce...but there was no way to fit bother the loader and the comander hatches on theturret without looking dumb.....so I am trying out anew hatchar angement.......what do you think?



I am not really happy with the range finders...I think they are to small...

I decided to mess with the light "cable"...made out of a paper clip...







thats it for tonght...tomorrow I will be working on the club battle field.....