YHR

As many of you know I have been playing around with different resistors to adjust the range on an IR cannon. This weekend I added a 500 ohm trim pot to a DBC and did some testing in the back yard.

With this set up I was able to dial in a range of anywhere between 28 meters and 0 meters. The DBC has a place to use a resistor or a bridge wire. All I did was install the trim pot at that point on the board. However any IR system could have this trim pot soldered in line between the IR LED and the board connection. So this is quite possible to add to a Tamiya system as well. Not sure how many people are interested but you could set up effective ranges on your IR shot.

i.e. if 30 meters is the maximum distance available with this IR technology, then this range would be reserved for 88's. If an actual Sherman 75mm had a kill range of 30% of an 88 then for our IR battles you could calculate this distance 30 metres X 30 % = 9 metres. you can then use this trimpot and dial in the range to 9 metres. A sherman tank would then have to close to with in 9 meters of a German heavy to inflict any damage. If you upgunned to a 76 mm Firefly which had an an effective kill range of 75% of an 88, you could then set you range to be 75% of the 88, which would calculate to 22.5 meters for our IR battles.

I would suggest this is another way to play the game. Have all tanks set for 5 hits, and have the gun range decide the class.

This would also work with the HL battle system. On this system there is no way to differentiate between weight classes, but if you added this trim pot inline with the HL IR LED you could adjust it's range as well, and use this to differentiate the weight classes.

sevoblast

Well done! Time for me to hit the 'radio market' on the other side of the ditch and get some pots.

tomhugill

This sounds like a great idea, and fairly sImple to integrate. I had thought of something similar involving altering the sensitivity of the individual sensors to simulate different armour thicknesses. Unfortunately would probably need a new apple design, and policing could be difficult.

ausf

This is the kind of 'realism' we need to add. Well done.

ausf

I agree. As long as the Tamiya apple is the standard, it would be hard to implement. If a 4 sensor system like the DBU or El Mod, then the skies the limit on.

YHR

There is a trade off though. In our thirst for realsim we have to realize that the more complex the system, the harder it is to police and set up at a meet. I believe the simplicity of the Tamiya system is why people don't want much more. If each tanker has to spend 1 hour to have his tank "verified" the time on the field is diminshed, and for some it is just not worth the effort. This little mod though is easy to do and a range test wouldn't be much more then what is required now. A marked range on the floor is all that would be required.

ausf

Good point. It could also tailor range to conditions.

The turning the turret to avoid fire just drives me nuts. My 10 year old has perfected the move and he can simply do circles around you and you can't hit him.

tomhugill

It's a good point there dan. I suppose the only way around that would be having tank specific apples but then that's probably not possible.

YHR

A chrome dome in place of the pyramid could fix that in a hurry. THe ones I built in my shop were not of good enough quality to keep the range that the Tamiya work under. It did prove that the dome would work though, and get rid of that 45 degree "defense"

If Tamiya started stamping out domes as well as pyramids we could have more options

ausf

The downside of the 4 sensor battle units to me is you have to struggle to include the 45 degree defense. When I mounted them in the StuG periscopes, I had to drop them down to eliminate the the sensors from reading angles. Even then, they are still much more susceptible than the Tamiya.

If the 45 degree defense was replaced with range, it would be so much better in my mind.

When I first put the TBUs in my Tamiyas this year, before I knew about any clubs or even HL for that matter, I placed the emitters as per the kit directions. I thought it was kind of ridiculous, since you could fire in the vicinity and score a hit. I ended up putting them in the main guns (M4 and Tiger I) and tuned them so you had to be aimed within the width of the hull of the opposing tank at 30 feet (the longest distance I could test inside). I loved it that way, our battles were tense fights of jockeying for position. That setup puts us at a distinct disadvantage in a club battle, so I switched back to the 9mm depth, but refuse to go with the 3mm tube, it's way too wide in my opinion.

Panther G

I like it very much Dan. A great way to ad some true realism to our game. Now if we can narrow the beam to give us a more accurate ballistic trajectory  we would really have some true realism.

ausf

You can, put it in the main gun and pull it back about 3 inches from the muzzle brake. Test and adjust.

tomhugill

And ban the rediculous fan shot whilst your at it! I've gotta say I like the idea of 45deg defence but the way it can be manipulated by moving the turret is daft, I'd rather get rid in It's current state!

wright 971

Hi Guys The SLU you can reduce the sensortivity of the Battle unit by 20% ,So this could be set for a Tiger or other heavy tank at 80%(factory setting is80%)and light tanks could be set at 100%(i think it is possible to lower the sensortivity more but the Manual isnt very clear about this)
You can also pick how many hits you want for your tank to take,this already will start a few arguments,I suppose you could also incude reducing the range of the gun.
I would say a blanket setting For Sherman at 5 (as standard for Tamiya)is fundamentaly wrong an early M4 set the same as a Jumbo of other marks with additional armour and wet stowage.Same could be said for other tanks which served for long periods Panzer 3 panzer 4 and T34all these were either up gunned or both upgunned and uprated armour plus additional armour(schurzun).

I think any work that progresses this is well worth looking at,I would also like to see momentum made complusory to stop tanks spinning and racing from cover fire then race back..This is not how they fought and arnt we trying to get to a point which is realastic.

I can see all the Tamiya guys now saying thats not the standard Tamiya is the standard,it may well have been the standard but there are battle system out there better than tamiya at around the same price El-mod is better and I would say the SLU is better and cheaper than the Tamiya,The sounds are as good as the Tamiya and it does have more options reduce the sensortivity of the battle system tank more or less hits than a a standard 3 5 or 9 can be anywhere between 3 and 12 thats 9 different settings plus can alter battle system,(also you can switch lights on and off and other functions)But one big draw back is no momentum (will try a turnigy chip later)
There are other systems which are cheaper but still offer more than the Tamiya, DBC is one still have the 3 settings (but i bet dave could make more)You have momentum which is a big plus,also because the battle system is in parts it is easy to place sensors in different places around the tank ,not nessasary to haave them stuck out of the top,which means you can make it harder to hit from the front but easy to hit from the side.Now that Dan has made the Sound card that works with the DBC it also has the ablity to have better sounds than the Tamiya.

So unless Tamiya spend some of the money they have been making on an upgraded Battle system they will no long be the standard but an over priced option that people wont want.


Keep up the good work Dan ,you do have support for your ideas ,the more realistic we can make a battle system the better the battles more fun which is what we all want.

regards pete

YHR

I used to think like that too Pete. However the Tamiya system is well established and I honestly think a system will fail if it can not play well with a Tamiya system. THat is why I have been pushing the Tamiya as a MINIMUM standard, so all of us have a common setting that allows all systems to play together. Each system can then develop any features they they want as enhanced game play, but all systems must have some common ground.

Cheers

no12skyline

Unless it was the classic 5 v 1 situation where a single 88mm gunned Tiger with full IR range was facing off 5 range-shortened Shermans, I don't see there being any encouragement for Sherman drivers to be cannon fodder.

In any case, most tankers tend to buy the "hero" heavy and medium tanks where in reality the WW2 battlefield had a lot more light tanks and SP guns with the heavies being rare. It is a noble effort to seek greater realism, but when a Panzer IV costs as much as a Tiger I, it wouldn't be hard to understand why most go for the heavy tanks, and historical accuracy isn't quite there anymore due to the bias to heavy classes.

YHR

We are now in a situation where we may in fact be able to have those kind of numbers at a meet. THe challenge becomes Five shermans against one Tiger, and see who wins.

heavyaslead

To your point Dan, on the dome findings, I did a few tests using studs or spikes for collars or armbands and such with similar results as you had.

I concluded the surface area of reflection is too low for good detection in a conical design as oppossed to Tamiya's flat plane design that has more surface area to reflect.

I'm begining to believe Tamiya really did think this through for the simplest design of the TBS.

heavyaslead

As for limiting IR range, has anyone ideas on a simple material insert in the IR tube that would simulate range?

By that I mean, a heavy for instance could have no insert, a medium have some translucent insert in the IR tube and a light have another type of translucent insert.

The insert could be labeled 'light' or 'medium' and be in the toolbox easily installed or extracted without any electronic modification.

ausf

Using two stock Tammys with TBUs, there is no way a Tiger will beat my 10 year old son equipped with one M4. At least in the open, which is the opposite of reality. He drives in circles until he catches you with your slow arse turret out of position at scores a hit or two. After two, when the less than nimble Tiger gets slower with damage he chews you up. He has to make a mistake for you to even have a chance.


It's only fair in tight confined areas which is exactly the opposite of real Tigers. They sucked in cities and were best in small groups in open areas.

The thought of facing two Tammy M4s with a Tiger gives me the chills. Five? Yikes. Multiply that by ten if you are talking Jagd Panther or Tiger where there's even less chance without the turret.

ausf

IR is better as it gets filtered. The more you cut out visible light, the more effective the IR is. Tamiyas filter is completely opaque. I've tested different scrim sheets, eliminating visible light in the spectrum and it only increases the range.

The wildest thing I came across is it works through PVC pipe. I mean eighth of an inch thick solid white plumbing PVC. I thought I was shielding the sensors with it when testing but I kept getting hits. Finally, I sealed one completely in a one inch pipe and it took hits from 15 feet away.

Pah co chu puk

This is a very interesting thread.

ausf

Actually, what I've found was it only increases the sensors ability to detect (doesn't increase range beyond the maximum, just gets rid of interference). It's very hard to effectively decrease an existing sensor with filters. The only real way is with truly opaque material, metal, solid paint coats, etc. That's hard to get consistent.

If you've ever looked through a Tamiya IR filter, you can't. It's solid bluish plastic that eliminates visible light in the spectrum, but allows red above what I would guess around 900 nm or so. They also have a 'collecting' lens on the same material right before the sensor which I assume helps with range. HL's apple uses an amber filter more akin to sunglasses, you can see through it. Their sensor had no collecting lens before it and isn't as sensitive or the same nm (it's in the 800s) as Tamiya. Plus their pyramid isn't too shiny, but heck, it's only $11, what do we expect.


I would think the only way be either to electronically limit the sensor or program the unit to ignore certain hits when working from the reception end.

That said, some guys turn their apples 45 degrees so you can't hit head on.

TheBennyB

After all is said and done I think all you'd have is a battlefield of  Tigers or 'heavys".  Awesome idea's though and it's always good to hear
people pushing the envelope on the technology side.

Pah co chu puk

It would depend on the mix of the plastic. Looks to me like Plexiglas(TM) cuts the wavelength we use to about 15% transmittance...

http://www.plasticgenius.com/2011/05...nsmission.html