How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
08-07-2012, 05:47 AM
#1
Thread Starter
How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
OK, I am thinking about making a E100 superheavy tank.The problem that is kicking mybutt is the tracks. I do notcare about how closethey are to what the real thing looked like, I just want the width. The hl tiger one tracks are 42.5mm wide, the hl king tiger tracks are 50mm wide.....the e100 tracks need to be around 68-70mm wide. The problems as I see them....
1) alinment....I am planing on using a hl king tiger as a base, the suspension points will be moved and the wheels will be enlarged to match the 900-1000mm size(real size, not scale).....but the wheels will have to aline with guideteeth in the tracks. Thedrive cogs and the idler will also have to aline with the tracks and some kind of gear box.
2) the tracks need to be strong as the tanks will be battled,whatwhat can be usedfor longer track pins?
3)I can not spend a ton of money, so any solutions needs to be on the cheep, I also do not have the best tool shop in the world so just making new drive axils for my gear boxes on abig tool Ido not have does not work.
4)I havenever tried casting, I amkind scared of burning down the house..I would rather have plastic tracks anyway.......
I have looked everywhere but the only person that seems to have tried something like this was here....
http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forum...=7270&start=80
One issue I see with his method is king tiger tracks are an open pin design where the tiger one tracks are closed pin.......
To be totaly honest, I am kinda suprisedI have not found half a dozen ways to make track wider on this and other forums as there are so many good modelers out there....
Help me make an E100.....what is a good way to make 70mm wide tracks?
1) alinment....I am planing on using a hl king tiger as a base, the suspension points will be moved and the wheels will be enlarged to match the 900-1000mm size(real size, not scale).....but the wheels will have to aline with guideteeth in the tracks. Thedrive cogs and the idler will also have to aline with the tracks and some kind of gear box.
2) the tracks need to be strong as the tanks will be battled,whatwhat can be usedfor longer track pins?
3)I can not spend a ton of money, so any solutions needs to be on the cheep, I also do not have the best tool shop in the world so just making new drive axils for my gear boxes on abig tool Ido not have does not work.
4)I havenever tried casting, I amkind scared of burning down the house..I would rather have plastic tracks anyway.......
I have looked everywhere but the only person that seems to have tried something like this was here....
http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forum...=7270&start=80
One issue I see with his method is king tiger tracks are an open pin design where the tiger one tracks are closed pin.......
To be totaly honest, I am kinda suprisedI have not found half a dozen ways to make track wider on this and other forums as there are so many good modelers out there....
Help me make an E100.....what is a good way to make 70mm wide tracks?
08-07-2012, 06:47 AM
#2
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Track links are a difficult thing to make, especially functional ones. There's a lot if stress on those parts. It's what keeps me from scratch building what I'd like. I have to resort to what already exists.
If you took a 1/16 link that was 40 mm and made it 1/8, it would be 80 mm, but also twice as thick, so it'll be stronger. You need a wider track but the same thickness, which won't be stronger, most likely weaker. Add in the distance you'd have to drill for pins without any misalignment and it just gets harder.
But the real issue is material. Metal or thermoplastics are the only way to get a result that will withstand stress and those are equipment heavier processes, or at least a bit pricey for the hobbyist. I wish I was set up to injection mold, but that's a serious outlay in gear.
I cast all types of different resins, chosen for pot life, hardness, weight, durability for all different applications using both pressure and vacuum. But at the end of the day, the chemical bond in any resin is relatively weak. That's why it snaps and shatters as opposed to styrene or ABS that bends before it breaks. A hundred bucks or so of silicone and resin and you could make some incredible static links, but you couldn't drive it around.
I have a kiln, but no idea how to get started with metals. I could make a set of functional tracks in porcelain, but I don't think they'll get too far.
If you are serious, I'd start with scratch building a few links of what you want and get estimates from some shops on reproducing it metal.
Or 3D print through a place like Shapeways, but it would probably be cheaper to have a small shop overseas run you off a couple of hundred links.
If you took a 1/16 link that was 40 mm and made it 1/8, it would be 80 mm, but also twice as thick, so it'll be stronger. You need a wider track but the same thickness, which won't be stronger, most likely weaker. Add in the distance you'd have to drill for pins without any misalignment and it just gets harder.
But the real issue is material. Metal or thermoplastics are the only way to get a result that will withstand stress and those are equipment heavier processes, or at least a bit pricey for the hobbyist. I wish I was set up to injection mold, but that's a serious outlay in gear.
I cast all types of different resins, chosen for pot life, hardness, weight, durability for all different applications using both pressure and vacuum. But at the end of the day, the chemical bond in any resin is relatively weak. That's why it snaps and shatters as opposed to styrene or ABS that bends before it breaks. A hundred bucks or so of silicone and resin and you could make some incredible static links, but you couldn't drive it around.
I have a kiln, but no idea how to get started with metals. I could make a set of functional tracks in porcelain, but I don't think they'll get too far.
If you are serious, I'd start with scratch building a few links of what you want and get estimates from some shops on reproducing it metal.
Or 3D print through a place like Shapeways, but it would probably be cheaper to have a small shop overseas run you off a couple of hundred links.
08-07-2012, 09:50 AM
#3
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
I wish I had a magic answer for you........the availability of suitable track is the big stumbling block and has always been a deciding factor in what I end up building. I have a suggestion that might interest you and be worth looking at, if you haven't done this already.
Do a Google search for ..... Robot tank parts
Take a look at the site that is titled ..... Images for robot tank parts.
A bunch of images are there .... hundreds of them
If you see something that looks like it migfht work, click on the picture and it will give you the source for that item.
Maybe that will help.......it's worth a try. As you mentioned, the problem might be the cost and the size of the track.
Thank goodness I only build stuff that uses HL Panzer III track!!!!
Rex
Do a Google search for ..... Robot tank parts
Take a look at the site that is titled ..... Images for robot tank parts.
A bunch of images are there .... hundreds of them
If you see something that looks like it migfht work, click on the picture and it will give you the source for that item.
Maybe that will help.......it's worth a try. As you mentioned, the problem might be the cost and the size of the track.
Thank goodness I only build stuff that uses HL Panzer III track!!!!
Rex
08-07-2012, 10:22 AM
#4
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
been slow at work so I was looking a jewelry casting kits.....guess I would need to do a lot more reading...I found this one...
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/Jewelr...it-1-110V.html
some of this metal casting stuff is nuts....
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/
Tank tracks would be done insmall batches and making tracks out of beer cans kinda sounds interesting...If for no other reason thanto buy more cases of beer.......Yes hunny, i need the cans for my tank
.
But the more I think about it,I think I might try to just try to make theking tiger tracks wider. The trick might just be keeping the the openings intact for the drive cogs.....so next questions....
What glue to use on the plastic tank tracks?
What to use for the longer track pins?
http://www.ottofrei.com/store/Jewelr...it-1-110V.html
some of this metal casting stuff is nuts....
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/
Tank tracks would be done insmall batches and making tracks out of beer cans kinda sounds interesting...If for no other reason thanto buy more cases of beer.......Yes hunny, i need the cans for my tank
.But the more I think about it,I think I might try to just try to make theking tiger tracks wider. The trick might just be keeping the the openings intact for the drive cogs.....so next questions....
What glue to use on the plastic tank tracks?
What to use for the longer track pins?
08-07-2012, 10:52 AM
#5
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Are the links ABS? If so, use MEK (not the substitute) or a glue that contains it like Plastiweld.
For pins, you need to get a micrometer on the existing pins and match up steel stock or music wire of the same diameter. Small Parts will have the stock, just make sure you use steel, not brass or aluminum. It usually comes it 12" or 36" pieces.
For pins, you need to get a micrometer on the existing pins and match up steel stock or music wire of the same diameter. Small Parts will have the stock, just make sure you use steel, not brass or aluminum. It usually comes it 12" or 36" pieces.
08-07-2012, 11:00 AM
#6
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
ORIGINAL: ausf
Are the links ABS? If so, use MEK (not the substitute) or a glue that contains it like Plastiweld.
For pins, you need to get a micrometer on the existing pins and match up steel stock or music wire of the same diameter. Small Parts will have the stock, just make sure you use steel, not brass or aluminum. It usually comes it 12" or 36" pieces.
Are the links ABS? If so, use MEK (not the substitute) or a glue that contains it like Plastiweld.
For pins, you need to get a micrometer on the existing pins and match up steel stock or music wire of the same diameter. Small Parts will have the stock, just make sure you use steel, not brass or aluminum. It usually comes it 12" or 36" pieces.
08-07-2012, 11:26 AM
#7
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Sorry, I've seen your work, I'm not going to assume you just started.
What glue do you use with your HLs?
HL uses ABS plastic, the same used in plumbing. Tamiya uses styrene, like most static model kits. Both bond by melting the two surfaces together, so they need solvents. Styrene melts much easier than ABS, so the glues are safer and there are more varieties. ABS requires strong solvents, mainly Methyl Ethyl Ketone, though some claim acetone, but it's never worked for me. MEK is strong and dangerous because it's extremely flammable and evaporates super quick (hence pretty tough on your nervous system). MEK is hard to find, because the liability goes up when it's misused. Home Depot sells MEK substitute, which is kind of lame for ABS. A few modeling companies still sell MEK based glues, Plastiweld is what I use. If you look at your HL joins where the glued, you can see big ugly melted drips. That's MEK being used by some poor dude whose liver will fall out by the time he's 30.
Music wire is hardened steel, but not stainless, so it's cheaper. It has spring to it, it's hard to bend. I assume it's what is used in pianos, but it's much harder than what they use in bass strings. It's used for pushrods in RC planes.
Any RC place will sell it, but if you go to Small Parts, you'll probably have a better chance of finding the right diameter. It's going to suck to cut, most likely will need to saw it, but that's the price to pay to functional pins that won't bend.
What glue do you use with your HLs?
HL uses ABS plastic, the same used in plumbing. Tamiya uses styrene, like most static model kits. Both bond by melting the two surfaces together, so they need solvents. Styrene melts much easier than ABS, so the glues are safer and there are more varieties. ABS requires strong solvents, mainly Methyl Ethyl Ketone, though some claim acetone, but it's never worked for me. MEK is strong and dangerous because it's extremely flammable and evaporates super quick (hence pretty tough on your nervous system). MEK is hard to find, because the liability goes up when it's misused. Home Depot sells MEK substitute, which is kind of lame for ABS. A few modeling companies still sell MEK based glues, Plastiweld is what I use. If you look at your HL joins where the glued, you can see big ugly melted drips. That's MEK being used by some poor dude whose liver will fall out by the time he's 30.
Music wire is hardened steel, but not stainless, so it's cheaper. It has spring to it, it's hard to bend. I assume it's what is used in pianos, but it's much harder than what they use in bass strings. It's used for pushrods in RC planes.
Any RC place will sell it, but if you go to Small Parts, you'll probably have a better chance of finding the right diameter. It's going to suck to cut, most likely will need to saw it, but that's the price to pay to functional pins that won't bend.
08-07-2012, 11:34 AM
#8
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Dremmel with a cutting wheel will take care of most things....I know someone that used one to cut car suspention springs....lol I guess the testers glue do not have mek....mmmmm
08-07-2012, 11:53 AM
#10
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Dremel with a good cutting wheel would be perfect. You could probably cut it place and if you do it right, it may heat up the wire enough to weld the surrounding plastic to it.
Testors blue is how I found out HL was using ABS. I redid the Pz IV gun mantlet to proper size, glued, clamped, left overnight only to have it fall apart with light pressure. Then I spent a bunch of cash at HD trying acetone, MEK subs and ABS plumbing glue to no joy, finally getting a small bottle of Plastiweld for a few bucks and it worked like a charm.
Testors blue is how I found out HL was using ABS. I redid the Pz IV gun mantlet to proper size, glued, clamped, left overnight only to have it fall apart with light pressure. Then I spent a bunch of cash at HD trying acetone, MEK subs and ABS plumbing glue to no joy, finally getting a small bottle of Plastiweld for a few bucks and it worked like a charm.
08-07-2012, 12:01 PM
#11
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Not sure the tracks are made out of the same stuff as the hull............I used the testers in the red and white tubesto do my hull mods on the e50....it melts hull plastic like a champ. I am not sure it will work on the flexable plastic the tracks are made of.
08-07-2012, 01:29 PM
#12
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Those tracks look a lot like the Tiger II tracks with duck bills on either end. Maybe the 18 tooth drive sprocket for Tiger II and single track links?
08-07-2012, 04:42 PM
#13
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
The e100 was to have 4 part tracks....like this.....
I may have to try duckbills if I can find a solvent glue that will work on the tracks.....I did a little messing with some matero king tiger tracks, here is what I found....
if you look carefully, the lower track link is the henglong king tiger....its smaller link has more loops to hold in the track pin so they are a better choice....
like I said, king tiger tracks are 50mm and I want to get close to the e100's 70 mm size....this first pic, I cut off the ends at the holes for the drive cogs...this neted me 60mm
here I tried to trim the for a duck bill look......fail
next I tried to cut a set of links at the track teeth for the full 20mm added width...
I do not like the extra holes so the cutting at the out side track holes is mostlikly how I am going to go.....so what salvent to use?
I may have to try duckbills if I can find a solvent glue that will work on the tracks.....I did a little messing with some matero king tiger tracks, here is what I found....
if you look carefully, the lower track link is the henglong king tiger....its smaller link has more loops to hold in the track pin so they are a better choice....
like I said, king tiger tracks are 50mm and I want to get close to the e100's 70 mm size....this first pic, I cut off the ends at the holes for the drive cogs...this neted me 60mm
here I tried to trim the for a duck bill look......fail
next I tried to cut a set of links at the track teeth for the full 20mm added width...
I do not like the extra holes so the cutting at the out side track holes is mostlikly how I am going to go.....so what salvent to use?
08-07-2012, 05:40 PM
#14
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RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
If you have the money look up investment casting. I think the hardest thing will be too find a shop that is left in North America that would take a small run for a set of tracks.
Maybe google something in Mexico or Brazil. Used to be that all the shops were here and few over seas because you could never trust their quality.
08-07-2012, 07:19 PM
#15
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Or look of art/ jewelry courses at local schools. Check with dentists in the area. My dentist introduced me to one of his colleagues who teaches Investment / lost wax
casting. Why dentists? Metal crowns are made to precise dimensions and are investment castings ( forget the ceramic / machined ceramic crowns) and nearly every dentist
relies on outside firms to do their castings. I'm not saying a shop that specializes in dental prosthetic components will take on a set of tracks but could very likely know
of one or a private person who might.
I've been doing sand casting of aluminum for years and have been wanting to add lost wax casting to my skill-set for about as long.
Jerry
08-08-2012, 03:16 AM
#16
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Let me know if your interested in any outside investment towards these tracks as I wouldn't mind building myself a monster 1/16th tank.
~ Jeff
~ Jeff
08-08-2012, 05:00 AM
#17
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
So nobody has tried toglue heng long tracks??
Asfor the casting, I found a place in RI that does jewelery in small lots and would use low grade al, Hardto tell how many peaces Iwould need as I do not have the hull yet( since a king tigerhull was 21 feet and the e100 hull was28 ft, I would guess I would need 1 and a half time the number needed on a king tiger), the big cost is making the mold....it would be cost out on labor but the off the cuffquote was over a grand and if the mold failed before the run was complete, there would be an extra charge for repair......then there is the cost of drivecogs and and idlers that would work with the new tracks.......I know where i could get blanks, one of those resin kits fromjuckenburg but thats 300 euros......for my first set of tracks, I would be looking at over 2 grand...after that I could be the supplyer to the world for 1:16 scale e100 track......yup, Iwould makemillions
My plan is to use modified hl king tiger running gear, that solves a lot of problems with alinment...the road wheels will need to be 6-7mm taller to match the 900mm dia on the prototype( the drawing were for 1000mm road wheels and king tiger wheels were 800mm tall)....just making wider king tiger trackssolves a lot of problems.
I guess the next step is try some glues.....I wounder if you could use some kind of attachment for a sodering gun that you could melt the different peaces togather.......going to be a long build....
Asfor the casting, I found a place in RI that does jewelery in small lots and would use low grade al, Hardto tell how many peaces Iwould need as I do not have the hull yet( since a king tigerhull was 21 feet and the e100 hull was28 ft, I would guess I would need 1 and a half time the number needed on a king tiger), the big cost is making the mold....it would be cost out on labor but the off the cuffquote was over a grand and if the mold failed before the run was complete, there would be an extra charge for repair......then there is the cost of drivecogs and and idlers that would work with the new tracks.......I know where i could get blanks, one of those resin kits fromjuckenburg but thats 300 euros......for my first set of tracks, I would be looking at over 2 grand...after that I could be the supplyer to the world for 1:16 scale e100 track......yup, Iwould makemillions
My plan is to use modified hl king tiger running gear, that solves a lot of problems with alinment...the road wheels will need to be 6-7mm taller to match the 900mm dia on the prototype( the drawing were for 1000mm road wheels and king tiger wheels were 800mm tall)....just making wider king tiger trackssolves a lot of problems.
I guess the next step is try some glues.....I wounder if you could use some kind of attachment for a sodering gun that you could melt the different peaces togather.......going to be a long build....
08-08-2012, 07:07 AM
#19
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Tanque......
Have you ever tried Alginate? Has anyone tried it? Dentists use it to make precision molds. My dentist gave me some of it because it was "out of date". I never tried it to see how well it worked for making parts.
Rex
Have you ever tried Alginate? Has anyone tried it? Dentists use it to make precision molds. My dentist gave me some of it because it was "out of date". I never tried it to see how well it worked for making parts.
Rex
08-08-2012, 07:23 AM
#20
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
I used to use alginate all the time, both dental and prosthetic grade.
It works great for one offs, but the mold dries out quickly and is easily torn.
The Dental stuff is just fast set with some flavoring, you usually pour a stone positive right after casting and use that for work. You can test it out, mix up a tiny batch and stick your finger in it until it sets (fast set could be a quick as 45 secs). Pour in some plaster and you'll have a perfect reproduction, fingerprints and all.
Art stores will sell alginate-like stuff called Moulage that you can reuse if you don't let it dry out, but if you're looking for reproductions of something like a helmet, fuel can, etc, RTV silicone would be the best way since you can make copies over and over as long as you take care of the mold.
It works great for one offs, but the mold dries out quickly and is easily torn.
The Dental stuff is just fast set with some flavoring, you usually pour a stone positive right after casting and use that for work. You can test it out, mix up a tiny batch and stick your finger in it until it sets (fast set could be a quick as 45 secs). Pour in some plaster and you'll have a perfect reproduction, fingerprints and all.
Art stores will sell alginate-like stuff called Moulage that you can reuse if you don't let it dry out, but if you're looking for reproductions of something like a helmet, fuel can, etc, RTV silicone would be the best way since you can make copies over and over as long as you take care of the mold.
08-08-2012, 07:47 AM
#21
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
ORIGINAL: tomhugill
Could you not just use KT sprockets and other running gear with the wider tracks?
Could you not just use KT sprockets and other running gear with the wider tracks?
I double the thinkness of the 4 out side wheels and things should look right with the pia skirts( track covers).
08-08-2012, 10:44 AM
#22
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
Contact Christian Ludwig, maybe he's already got plans of coming up with tracks/sprockets and runninggearfor his kit?
http://www.ludwigs-hobby-seite.de/e100.htm
08-08-2012, 10:56 AM
#23
Thread Starter
RE: How do you make 70mm wide tracks?
I have been going back and forth with him...he is making a scaled armor hull and turret with heng long king tiger suspension mounting points for me, he ran into the same problems I did with casting tracks...just so much money toget started. He is also real close to getting a lowe / heng long kt kit togather.....I posted a threrad on that.
look here at what I hope to be buying in a week or 2.....
http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forum...hp?f=23&t=9390
by the way....you want to see a great build on the e100......you will never guess what killed the build...
http://www.rc-panzerketten-forum.com...tuser=0&page=1
the tracks....he told me it was still sitting on a shelf.....
look here at what I hope to be buying in a week or 2.....
http://www.rctankwarfare.co.uk/forum...hp?f=23&t=9390
by the way....you want to see a great build on the e100......you will never guess what killed the build...
http://www.rc-panzerketten-forum.com...tuser=0&page=1
the tracks....he told me it was still sitting on a shelf.....
