BIGMIG

Thats about it in a nutshell................ Who realy cares how they did it ...Just be glad they did..

Isn't there a forum where all the "high rollers"....you know those "upper clase people who buy Tamiyas because they only buy the best" Hang out...???? Why do they stay here where us poorer sloobs buy and have fun with these cheap knock==off tanks.

They just don't get it..............Boy when i grow up and get that big paying job i'm going to buy a Tamiya so RCU members will say......WOW ...BIGMIG has a tamiya.............

AMAAAAAAAAZZZZZZZZZING..............

BIGMIG

And it goes on and on and on and on and on.............Find yourself a hobby and have some fun for a change........Break the rules....build something your way......Go outside the circle.......Paint a big bullseye on them.........Show us something different being done to one for a change..........

Some of these guys buy a toy Tamiya tank and all of a sudden act like they are "Bill Gates"........."HELLO".........."Anybody Home"...Put a pre-made model togeather and paint it and act like you just built the great wall of china...........Sorry not "Impressed" work on it....

Rebellion13

Yep. Heng long owners and Tamiya owners both seem to need to justify their purchase. Just have fun. Every so often brand vs brand pops up. Both have there Pros/Cons. As to the original post, all that was asked was, what were the origins of heng long tank designs........and then it went downhill from there. And I am in no way condemning either brand or there owners. Every brand has its place. And we all share the passion for tanks, RC's, military history, long walks on the beach, and a few beer once in awhile. And speaking of alcohol, mmmmmmm American Honey.

Cheers,
Wade

ksoc

Those of you who want to make this a class warfare issue, it isn't. I make my living as an architect. A lot of time, effort, and money goes into creating and presenting designs. I'd get kinds PO'd if someone was not only stealing my ideas, but using copies of my own drawings to sell them to someone else.

Heng Long deserves credit for their original designs, but lets not forget that they got into the tank business. You can justify it anyway you want, but that doesn't change what they did.

If want to buy from Heng Long, that is your choice. Just don't be surprised by the lack of products in a market were vendors know that anything they design can be quickly and cheaply knocked off, and most buyers will gladly seek out the lowest priced copy, regardless of who brought it to market.

rivetcounter

As has been said, credit where credit is due to Heng Long for the tanks they designed and built themselves but not at all for the ones they blatantly ripped off Tammiya.

Let’s just say that an American company called “Raging Eagle” designed and built a 1/16 RC M1A2 Abram’s and an M60 complete with all the electronics and battle system and had to sell them at 1000€ as a kit plus radios and batteries, there would be many on this forum who would sell their kids to buy this product, then shock horror a firm called Heng Long released the same models with the same box art, the same crew figures with the only differences being they placed a useless BB gun in the turret then sold the tank for 150€ just how many of the fan boy Heng Long owners would rush out and buy it, what we would hear is that Heng long had ripped off an American company and that it’s sacrilege to buy inferior models, the argument is exactly the same.

herrmill

Are you inferring that Chinese companies actually copy other companies' product???

On Monday I saw this latest version of Lifan's 320 which is, at this stage, 95% identical to the Austin Mini. Even the badge on the bonnet looked the same - only bigger!

rivetcounter

Herrmill,
I would never dream of saying that any company in China the cloning capital of the world[X(] would ever do such a thing, after all if it has a BB gun then it must be completely original.

rivetcounter

Herrmill,
I just had a close look at the Austin mini EERRR Lifan 320 , and have to say that you are wrong the registration plates are blue, everyone knows Austin never made them in that colour

ausf

Short answer, it does hurt you.

In the figure business, it knocks some of the best artists out of the picture. I have a friend who released his new figure on the first day or a show only to find copies were being sold at a table at the very same show two days later.

Is that good for anybody?

It leads to two things, people buying stuff that is subpar in quality compared to the actual product, even though you are paying the same, and the originators moving on. I can't tell you how many fine sculptors quit due to this. Recasters are the absolute number one issue in the figure business. Do you want to pay for a figure from the original mold, or a copy of a copy?

What ends up happening is the best sculptors will no longer release their own stuff, but only sell masters to the big companies. You may not care, you still have options. But now it's a board room decision on what's released, not a sculptor. So that really cool set of Japanese tankers you want doesn't get made, instead you get another German commander holding binoculars. That's not BS, it's what is happening. Big companies produce plastic figures because they are cheap. Pay once for the master, make the mold and produce the same thing for the next 50 years. You don't worry about copies, because they are so cheap, who cares? The best stuff is resin. The widest variety of subject is in resin, but it's also the easiest way to recast.

Yes, HL offers you cheaper options to Tamiya, but when Tamiya decides to move on, all you have is HL.

ausf

Thanks for posting those pics. That is ridiculous. I didn't think it was such an obvious copy. Modeling the box and fonts after a competitor is one thing, but copying that wheel directly is disgraceful.

I buy competitors products all the time. I look them over, see how they molded it, check for issues and quality. If I see something that benefits me, a new way to vent air, a cool technique for separating pieces, I will absolutely use it in my next project if applicable. That's part of business, and promotes growth. The better ideas get copied, which create the next better idea.

But let's be absolutely clear, direct copying of a product is not business, it's theft.

YHR

I agree and I believe intellectual property needs to be protected. Even patents have a 25 year life though so the idea is that things can be copied in time.

I am just not sure what harm HL has caused Tamiya. HL introduced me to cheap RTR tanks, I then have gone on to buy Tamiya stuff. Without HL I never would have bought a Tamiya. This forum is full of people with the same story.

I hope the annoucement Tamiya is making will be to showcase a new desire to cater to this market. IT is possible they are noticing increased sales in parts and tanks.

I just purchased a Leopard and 2 recoil units so I am doing my share.

ausf

I agree, I doubt HL has hurt Tamiya, they are a behemoth in modeling and yes, it's two different markets.

But those wheels are theft, plain and simple.

David's DBC has done so much for the appeal of HL. Your work to incorporate the Benedini takes it even further. What both of you have done has helped the hobby. Thing is, that board is easily reproduced for a few bucks in parts and all anyone would need to copy is to reverse engineer and program the PIC. I don't know if that's an easy feat or not, I hope it isn't, but I'd rather buy the chip from you, it's your work, you deserve the proceeds. But I doubt you'd stick in the game if $15 copies were being sold on eBay and if you drop out of the game, then we all lose.

Tanque

I want to believe that not everything HL has made is a purposeful copy. If they did copy down to manufacturing peculiarities then clearly that is wrong. Many manufacturers
have made their version of a Tiger, a Panther and the like is the same scale. An investment to make an RC 1/16 scale model must be many orders of magnitude greater
as well as the risks associated with that endeavor.

If someone is going to make a proper 1/16 representation of a vehicle how many ways could they make it and still hope to have it appeal to a specialty market?
The difference must be in the details. I think HL/ Matorro has been trying to copy Tamiya's success not necessarily their products. This is evident by the substantial variation
in the mechanics, the electronics, the moldings and development of zinc accessories. This is further supported by the products unique to themselves. Some of the offerings from
China have been good to avoid but one can see unique direction and development in areas Tamiya for one has not pursued; whether or not the reason is market depth or
other reasons we can't know. HL's investment in producing one of their models, substance, location, packaging must be less that the corresponding Tamiya product
so their risk is less. They can afford to make a more diverse product line.

We can only hope that Tamiya remains in the very specialty branch of RC modeling that is rc armor. Their products are still best of class as sold. To deny it is foolish;
all the bleating to the contrary notwithstanding. HL and the other Chinese manufacturers have their place, their latest offerings are particularly welcome adding a diversity
never before seen in this hobby. We can hope that the global economy improves to such a degree that there is room for all.

I own all the Tamiya model tanks save the Leo II; I own most all the unique ( none of the those in common with Tamiya) HL, Matorro, Wusan / Trumpeter and Hooben models so I'm familiar with the manufacturing differences of both.

Jerry

YHR

The work is not mine. IT is David's and Thomas's. I just got the two of them working together. The sound files are mine. However I never put much capital in to this for the very reason you mention. Work could be knocked off and produced in China.

ausf

This precisely my point how ripping off hurts everyone.

You're in this hobby, have a background and insight that would help the hobby, but are reluctant for really good reasons and I agree with you, it's not worth it.

But the fewer people trying new things, the less innovation, more of the same.

If David didn't want to use his own Tx and IR battle his HL with Tamiya, we wouldn't be. If you didn't want better sound with your HLs, I wouldn't have it in mine.

Rebellion13

I do believe that it is wrong for copying what they have, and am not trying to say that it is ok to do so. I am simply stating that a few years back when I first started in this hobby, I looked at the tamiyas and did not want to spend that much if I wasn't going to continue with this niche. So I purchased a HL, and since then I want to buy a tamiya. And like it or not HL has brought in new tankers, which IMO is better for the hobby, and all the cottage industries who sell aftermarket items. And stating once again, it is wrong to have your hard work stolen, that is the world we live in and it is unfortunate. And if Tamiya gets out of the game, and HL is all we are left with, yes it would be sad, they are the pioneers in this niche. Should there be consequences for HL copying...I believe so. My life right now does not enable me to have various tamiya's, and to battle with my inlaws who will pay for nothing, leaves me with the cheaper path. If I had the money, and time all I would buy is tamiya and not even give HL a chance, but that is the world I live in.

Cheers
Wade

ausf

HL has provided a good service for the hobby, no doubt whatsoever.

My point is, when they started, what if they looked towards openings instead of copies and opened up any WWII AFV book and said, "Hey, let's make a Cromwell, Hetzer, Marder, etc."

Rebellion13

Ausf very true. I believe HL intentions were not to make a product to compete with tamiya, but a cheap toy for kids and never imagined they would be modded and upgraded. And then along comes the entrepreneur and a boat load of parts, electronics, etc were born. And a couple of years back, not mentioning names, and I am sure some of you remember this, and I don't want to even bring this up......but....a well executed IR battle system for HL was blatantly stolen and re-badged as their own, needless to say because of their actions, and method of business are no longer in the game.

Cheers
Wade

Glacier Girl

My Feedback: (4)

Heck you folks only are dealing with two companies and who may have or may not have copied one another. Take a trip over to the electric aircraft side some time.
I can show you the same plane from multiple manufacturers. The same motor with copies of the copies of the copies. Heck some of them are so blatant they just stick their labels over the other guys. Yeah they may scrimp here and there, but sometimes it's actually the other way around.

I've had Chinese ARF's that were better built then the ones they supposedly copied.
Lipo batteries, there are if I remember correctly less then half a dozen manufactures, yet how many brands are out there.
I run 2.4 in many of my planes and my one (so far) tank. Why would I spend 50+ for a Spektrum rx, when I can grab the same animal from Hobby King for under 10?

They have their place, as stated, for many it's the only way they could afford to get into a hobby.
Is what they do wrong? yeah, but if we didn't buy them they wouldn't be in business.


If you want something to think about, hopefully you won't experience what is happening with some of the aircraft kits, and the manufacturers of the real thing.

For example Lockheed has put the hammer down on anyone copying the WWII P-38 Lightning and others, and has so for some time. To produce a replica of it you must pay a licensing fee to Lockheed and a per unit fee.
Lockheed has their own group of folks (EMI)who's sole purpose it to track down any type of copying, of "their" design. And not just r/c, they are even going after artistic representations.

Horizon put out a P-38 a while back, and right there on the box was the "licensed by Lockheed".

Just Google what Lockheed is doing. And hopefully your tank companies don't follow suit, or you will be at best paying for the right to model something or worse not see it available due to the kit folks not being or wanting to pay the fees.

Here's one from right here on RCU, from way back in 05.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_26...tm.htm#2695992

Or how bout one right from one of the model makers.
http://www.djaerotech.com/index1.html


Funny I bought a Cessna 337 to build about a year ago. When it showed every and I mean every reference to "Cessna" were gone. The lettering on the box was blacked out, ditto the build manual. Heck they even went as far as cutting out Cessna on the decal sheets.

Be happy with what you have, a choice. Some day you may not have one.

MAUS45

Ausf I agree with you about the figures. That was a direct rip off by HL, but the HL tanks are not the same. I think this is a case of apples vs oranges.

If we say HL is copying/ripping off Tamiya's R/C tank models then is Dragon doing the same thing when they come out with the same 1/35th Tiger II model as Tamiya? Should Monagram sue for damages, because Tamiya, Dragon, and Otaki produced 1/35 scale Panzer IV H models? Any time we model something we are trying to make a exact scale copy of that object, in this case a 1/16 scale tank.

I think the differences between the way HL chose to design their Tiger I and Pershing vs Tamiya's is enough to show that it was there own design. Remember HL used springs instead of torsion bars, have a battery box built into the lower hull, smoke unit, and their own proprietary electronics. They also made a version with airsoft type gun.

The big difference between HL and Tamiya is that HL brought a Panzer III and StuG III G, so If Tamiya came out with their own version of the Panzer III and the StuG III G would they be ripping off HL?

HL came out with a Panzer IV F1 and F2 are they Copying Tamiya just because Tamiya came out with a Panzer IV H/J?

It is a win for everybody when there are more tanks to choose from. I own both Tamiya and HL R/C tanks and like them both for the fact that they are all different and offer different challenges for me to improve my modeling and R/C skills. It seems to me this should be the focus and not bashing one company over another based on what we think is a copy?

modelbob71

Hi Glacier Girl,
When I was doing the masters for a plastic aircraft firm years ago, I was instructed that each part had to be different IN SOMEWAY from any existing kit. Since a scale planes wing is a scale planes wing, and theyCAN be identicle,you have to come up
with adifferent way to attach it to the rest of the planefor example
I also remember the uproar about the licencing of WW II aircraft. I didn't follow up on what finally happened
but I never understood how acompany could get royalties on a desigh that was funded by the UStaxpayer.

no12skyline

Heng Long, Tamiya, and WeCoHe all put out their own Panther G late model, no one ever accused WeCoHe or Tamiya of "borrowing" other people's designs......

rivetcounter

I can see there is no fooling you, you really are as sharp as they come.
Fact, Wecohe announced to the world that it was designing a late model Panther G, they even said that they would make earlier versions at a later date they also stated that development would take over 12 months, this in the tank world caused a vast amount of excitement though the predicted price was going to be over 1000€ plus the use of parts from a Tamiya kit making this a very expensive offering but still the only one available in the meantime Tamiya saw that this was going to be a much wanted model and developed their own late model Panther G unbeknown to Wechoe, fast forward 10 months Tamiya releases their Panther first and people instantly know that this has been done to spite Wechoe they also know of the detail faults that the tank has and that it was rushed into the market a few months later Wechoe release their Panther which has far sharper details all the hatches open along with other wonders not to mention that the Wechoe version is far more accurate scale wise, these 2 Panthers represent individual designs, then we have Heng Long who 18 months after the Tamiya release decide to release their own Panther, lord and behold the upper hull and turret are yet again copies of the Tamiya model, why well Tamiya not being stupid had noticed the theft of the Tiger model plus box graphics they had deliberately built in scale defects with parts not quite in the right place and funnily enough the Heng long has exactly the same faults, the same happened with the Jagdpanther not long after and the same now with the Porsche Tiger II and no doubt the Henschell Tiger II will be exactly like the Tamiya version.

I have no doubt that there are more than a few people here who when they have a holiday but a Rolex from the chap on the beach for 100€ then 3 weeks later when all the gold has rubbed off and it’s stated to rust are still convinced they have a genuine Rolex making statements lie “But it says Rollex on the face”(spelling is intentional )

DirtyBird69

You said it Maus!

Rebellion13

We should all agree to disagree lol. The wheel and the commander, do show a copied part/parts. But Like I stated before, I really do not believe that HL's intentions were to make a copy of Tamiya for the hobbyist in mind but just a toy that a kid who does not know the difference, but likes the looks has a tank to play with. I for one have never said that they weren't a copy, they are and sometimes a poor copy at that. How many of us use the ideas/improvements and or weathering techniques of others on this forum, now I know these ideas are not copyrighted. We like what we see and in a way are copying others, and before anyone slams me, I know it is not to make money as say HL is doing, just pointing out no matter what there will always be copying, sad but true. And I don't think HL ever stated it was their own design, still doesn't make it right.

Cheers,
Wade

jarndice

In truth I really do not care about the derivation of HL Tank design, what I remember is many years ago I saw the Tamiya 1/16 Tiger 1 and fell in love with it unfortunately it was always going to be a dream on a Truck Drivers income, I have given serious thought to kissing the feet of Mr Heng Long for producing a model close enough in silhouette to confuse all but the expert and with the wide range of upgrades available it not only becomes an individual model but tougher than the basic HL design and yet still affordable, Of course it will not be as durable as the Tamiya version but unlike that piece of plastic artistry when my HL model finally gives up the ghost I will be able to afford another one.