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  1. #26
    ArmChairGeneral's Avatar
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Just because ppl don't post here, doesn't mean it is forgotten. I reminded ppl at work and have my own ways of remembering the heroes of that time.

    Paul
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  2. #27
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    http://youtu.be/Sl2tHMcaLRk

    watching this made me sad my mother went to the Arizona monument when she was there on vacation one year
    i think i was 9 or 10 years old i was at home she brought home a model of the Arizona ship i don't have it anymore and wish that i did if anyone goes there i'd like to get another one it was a smaller scale but it would have to be from there it wouldn't be the same getting it on line or from a hobby store

  3. #28

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?


    ORIGINAL: BIGMIG

    The reaon for the post was not to create a debate,just a notation of the day that needs to be remembered by us all.I was about a year and a half old when this attack took place.The history leading up to this attack and on through to the end results is well doccumented and leaves little in my eyes to debate about.I can't think of any other event after reading a lot of history that has taken place in or involving the USA that directly effected every person living here in one way or other than the time span and event of WWII.

    BIGMIG




    US NAVY (1960-1964 ) Served on...USS Pine Island.....USS Navasota........USS Ashtabula.....18 Months Cubi Point NAS Philippines
    Thank you for your service Bigmig.

    These discussions are healthy as long as they don't turn into mud-slinging fights. If we keep and open mind we learn and grow. Closed minds do not learn anything! I have come a long way in my 51 years. I have become more tollerant (for lack of a better term) of Japanese products. As for the Tamiya FO tanks...they are the best. No one makes a similar product in the US. If they did I would have bought theirs instead.

    Many people are misinformed on WW II and the Pacific. The European front is much easier to understand how it all started. During the depression we were quite happy to sell oil and scrap metal to Japan. We needed the jobs and funds here in the US. Little mention is made of the China. I'm glad it has been remembered here in this post. As far as I am concerned WW II started in the early 1930's when Japan invaded China. Not when Germany invaded Poland in 1939 or when we were stabbed in the back at Pearl Harbor in 1941. Germany warmed up for war in Spain, Italy warmed up in Africa, just like Japan warmed up in China. Many nations had huge domestic issues and the Depression to deal with. They had little time for "World Affairs". The US tried to negotiate with Japan regarding aggression in China and the League of Nations was ineffective. The fuse was lit when the US cut off further oil supplies to Japan. They didn't use it daily like we do here today Scot...they were stock piling oil for a war of "World Conquest". They had a one year supply and needed oil from the East Indies and elsewhere to fuel the war machine for the future. This is one of the reasons they didn't destroy the huge oil reserves in Hawaii. Many Admirals were shocked that they didn't. Although they did have a plan to do so but chose not to. If they had destroyed those oil reserves the operations at Coral Sea and the huge sucesses of Midway would not have been possible. The Japs had hoped to possibly capture that fuel stockpile. It took years to build it up and would not have been easily replaced. This was not supposed to be a "Sneak Attack" in their eyes since they planned to tell us at least an hour before....LOL.

    We were lucky that they attack happened where it did in a shallow port. If it had happened in the open sea elsewhere in the Pacific those ships would have sank deep and been gone forever. Many were refloated and repaired in the best repair facility in the Pacific outside of the California Naval ports. It would be like having your car break-down at a service station. So many lives were lost. But many saved due to the hospitals and great medical personel being on site. The loss of life was horrific and a national tragedy. Most US citizens didn't want another war. Our European Allies were glad to see us enter the war. But regretted the way we had to convinced to join them. Hitler's declaration of war on the US was very foolish on his part. It opened the flood-gates from the "Arsenal of Democaracy" and US "War Machine". The Japanese rule over the Pacific only lasted a few months. The effects of WW II are far reaching and long lasting. Many are still effecting the US today. We should all be students of history. We must NEVER FORGET.
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  4. #29

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    And i thank you .Well writen piece and factual........The history facts are there for those who may wish to read it.

    Wikipedia seems to do a pretty good job at listing historical facts.I often wonder who and how does all this information gets posted there ?

    A good read to leading up to the pearl harbor attack would be ( Second sino japanese war Wikipedia) and one can see what was going on...

    BIGMIG

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    The Battleship was the Missouri which is of the Iowa class along with the Wisconsin, Iowa, and New Jersey. I'm not sure if the Arizona was of the same class maybe someone can chime in. The Missouri was chosen because President Harry Trueman was from Missouri. The nickname of the Missouri was "The Mighty Mo."
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  6. #31

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Oh ya, not sure about the North Carolina, I'm an Army guy.
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  7. #32
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    I served in the Navy during the 80's and did a westpac cruise on the USS Constellation 84'/85' and one on the USS Ranger in 87'. I was an avionics technician for an E2C Hawkeye squadron (VAW113, Blackeagles). We went to Pearl Harbor on the way out and on return from each cruise. I remember standing parade rest on the flight deck as we moored across from the USS Arizona. It was a very moving experience.
    No matter how many times I cut it, it's still too short!

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  8. #33

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?


    ORIGINAL: BIGMIG

    And i thank you .Well writen piece and factual........The history facts are there for those who may wish to read it.

    Wikipedia seems to do a pretty good job at listing historical facts.I often wonder who and how does all this information gets posted there ?

    A good read to leading up to the pearl harbor attack would be ( Second sino japanese war Wikipedia) and one can see what was going on...

    BIGMIG
    We have many of countless thousands...mabe i guess into the millions of US people who served in the various branches of the military.I guess with the exception of those who may have been drafted everyone had their own reason for enlisting into the branch of military they chose.For me i was a 17 year old kid (went in 4 or 5 days after turning 17 ) had quit school at the start of the 11 th grade and was still not 16 at the time.When i joined it was not that i was being patriotic at the time.( not sure if i even fully understood what that even ment at that age )....That feeling of pride and patriotism came much later for sticking it out and doing the best job you could.
    It gave me a place to continue to grow up and has repaid me many times over in to many ways to mention.

    If there was anything i would change in our constitution it would be no one would hold any political office in the united states above a state level who had not served at least 3 years or more active duty in one of the branches of our military.

  9. #34
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?


    ORIGINAL: Moggy

    The Battleship was the Missouri which is of the Iowa class along with the Wisconsin, Iowa, and New Jersey. I'm not sure if the Arizona was of the same class maybe someone can chime in. The Missouri was chosen because President Harry Trueman was from Missouri. The nickname of the Missouri was ''The Mighty Mo.''
    There were only 4 Iowa class battleships. Iowa, Missouri, New Jersy and Wisconsin.

    A friend of mine was a fire control technician on the New Jersey. He gave me a tour of it when it was in San Diego. What an incredible warship. It had a 2 inch main deck. The main turrents had an office in it although you couldn't really stand up in them.
    No matter how many times I cut it, it's still too short!

    Ultrasport Brotherhood #45, P-51 Brotherhood #34, P-40 Brotherhood #35, Saito Club member #799, Spitfire Brotherhood #173, Glow head #18

  10. #35
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?


    [quote]ORIGINAL: thecommander


    As far as I am concerned WW II started in the early 1930's when Japan invaded China.
    It's quite arguable, and my opinion the aggressions of WWII were a continuation of rivalries in WWI.

    I remember these days in history, even more now as the younger generation seems to understate the importance.
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  11. #36

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Unfortunately, for the disinterested generation, Pearl Harbor's historical record is that as defined by Ben Affleck and Josh Hartnett...

    Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

  12. #37

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Arizona was a Pennsylvania class Battleship. Her's a list of US Navy ships

    http://www.history.navy.mil/Photos/usnshtp/bb/bb.htm

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  13. #38

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    +1, I sailed with the USS New Jersey in Beirut with the Multinational Peacekeeping Force in 83 and 84 and had a Buddy from Bootcamp who served aboard the USS Iowa.
    The Demise of the battleship is due to Aircraft Carriers, Electronic counter measures , Smart Bombs and missles etc.
    Why Put a couple of billion dollar asset and 2500 men in harms way in a set piece battle when it can effectively be done at a stand off distance over the horizon.
    In the 80's when I sailed with the "Jersey" she was used purely for NGFS and had absolutely no ASW capabilities albeit she did have torpedo tubes but had little or no sub detection capability as my ships primary mission was to do ASW screen and detection for her as we were armed with a vast array of sonar and ASROCS to combat subs. I can tell you from experience that She was Impressive as all hell when she fired her 16 inch guns , at a mile the shockwave was like getting punched in the face and you could see the shockwave come across the water, something similar to a semi going past you at 70 mph while you're standing on the white line.
    We had a forward observer team of SEALS aboard who went into beirut and directed NGFS for the jersey who told me that each round would leave a crater 20' deep and 100' across.
    I've been astern of a battleship many many times and I've seen her fire her guns, nothing in my life thus far has impressed me as much as watching a battleship in action and I doubt anything will.
    I feel fortunate to have been a part of and witness to the ERA of the Battleships.











    ORIGINAL: jessiej

    Pearl Harbor got rid of the battleships?

    Didn,t the Japanese sign the surrender aboard a US battleship? Didn't battleships take part i n Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq?

    Jess

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  14. #39
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    The Iowa class of BB was different from the Arizona. The Arizona was of an earlier class of BB. The North Carolina "The Showboat" was later. I have been on her quite frequently, and I am a 6'1" tall retired Marine, and I can stand up in her 16" gun turrets.

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  15. #40
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    As a young Cub Scout I took a tour of the Missouri when she was still at Bremerton. This would have been about 1971. There was a bronze plaque set into the deck where the Jap delegation signed the instruments of surrender on 2 Sep,1945. Five years later I stood on the Memorial and looked down through the water at the deck of the Arizona. I guess I got the reverse tour, in a way. First the end, then the beginning. I've been fortunate over the years to have met many warriors from that conflict, a few famous, many not famous, and quite a few who would rather not be reminded of their pain and sacrifice. God Bless them all.
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  16. #41
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?


    ORIGINAL: airzona

    mustclime u should also spend some time and read. all of those "dumb old battleships", minus the arizona, utah, and ohlahoma, were repaired and finished the war. the japanese would not have lost their oil if they didnt try and take over all of asia, thank teddy roosevelt for that. so japan had a choice, play nice with others and dont steal other nations land, they only bombed pearl to delay the butt whoppin they got in the end. i fear all we have done is woken a sleeping giant....adm. yamamoto. (something close to that)
    *sigh*....when did Japaninvade China?.... 1937....when did the USA cut the oil supplies tojapan? July 1941( that would be 4 years later....and justafter the Germans kicked butt in Europe), when did the USA go on high alert for a possible attack?....they didn't. Did Roosevelt want to get involved in the the war?......read some history.....as for getting some of those battle ships back up and running......thats called propaganda....they were just gun platforms....how long did the USA keep those prewar battle shipsin serviceafter the war?.....they were gone in a year....the Battle of Taranto in November 1940 proved that an attackon a port with aircraft could destroy ships in thatport....so was it a surprise attack?
    That which does not destroy me just makes me more irritable

  17. #42
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Some shots of the Arizona Memorial and the Mighty Mo...... where the War in the Pacific began and ended for the US.

    2nd - The plaque bolted to the deck on the spot of surrender.

    3rd - An example of the armor thickness.

    4th - The Arizona and Missouri are not the only memorials. Across the harbor and next to the Arizona museum is the USS Bowfin The boat and museum are dedicated to all those lost from the Silent Service, and 'still on patrol'.......
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  18. #43
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    That plaque was exposed to the weather when I saw it. Glad to see it's being protected.
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  19. #44

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Hi Scot, It think you are just a tad off the mark here.

    *sigh*....when did Japan invade China?.... 1937....when did the USA cut the oil supplies to japan? July 1941( that would be 4 years later....and just after the Germans kicked butt in Europe)

    Answer: The US and L of N tried unsucessfully to resolve the undeclared Japanese war on China for years. Many believe the Japs wanted the US to get involved in Europe first to weaken the Pacific defenses. We were also quite busy building arms for the impending war in Europe.

    Did Roosevelt want to get involved in the the war?......read some history...

    Answer: I just didn't read history. I studied it in High School and College. I only speak of the facts that I know. Roosevelt knew that his "Quarantine" wouldn't work and that direct US involvement was inevitable. On Dec. 7th, 1941 Churchill was elated that he would now have a strong ally. Hitlers declaration of war on the US hastened the process.

    as for getting some of those battle ships back up and running......thats called propaganda....they were just gun platforms....how long did the USA keep those prewar battle ships in service after the war?.....they were gone in a year...

    Answer: Almost all war materials were "Moth-balled" in '46, Planes, tanks, subs, ships..... The battleships were never "Gone" but some were scrapped to steel plants years later. The NJ was recommisioned and retruned from the ghost fleet 3 times. The New Mexico served until 1956. The NJ was finally decomissioned in 1991. That is not "gone in one year" in my book.

    .the Battle of Taranto in November 1940 proved that an attack on a port with aircraft could destroy ships in that port....so was it a surprise attack?

    Answer: Just because something has be done before doesn't preclude it form being a surpise to someone else. Do you really believe this was not a suprise attack? Or a sneak attack?

    The bottom line is we all interpret things differently. A fact is a Fact...un-changeable and subject to credible verification. Opinions are what we as individuals choose to believe. Thanks to all those Veterans who fought for liberty....we can have our freedom of speach.
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  20. #45

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    ORIGINAL: BIGMIG

    And I thank you. Well writen piece and factual........The history facts are there for those who may wish to read it.

    Wikipedia seems to do a pretty good job at listing historical facts. I often wonder who and how does all this information gets posted there ?

    A good read to leading up to the pearl harbor attack would be ( Second sino japanese war Wikipedia) and one can see what was going on...

    BIGMIG
    Thank you for the compliment Bigmig. I'm not a big wikipedia fan.... but it is informative and I do like their links for additional information. One of my favorite activities when we gather at Danville is "Choir Practice" as I like to call it. We all get together, drink and talk military and history until the wee hours (3 am in November) at the hotel. I think some guys, like Jake, come just for that BS session. He served on a boomer. But he loves tanks.

    Here is a pic of 3 Krazy Krauts warming up for more choir practice.
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  21. #46

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?


    ORIGINAL: thecommander

    ORIGINAL: BIGMIG

    And I thank you. Well writen piece and factual........The history facts are there for those who may wish to read it.

    Wikipedia seems to do a pretty good job at listing historical facts. I often wonder who and how does all this information gets posted there ?

    A good read to leading up to the pearl harbor attack would be ( Second sino japanese war Wikipedia) and one can see what was going on...

    BIGMIG
    Thank you for the compliment Bigmig. I'm not a big wikipedia fan.... but it is informative and I do like their links for additional information. One of my favorite activities when we gather at Danville is ''Choir Practice'' as I like to call it. We all get together, drink and talk military and history until the wee hours (3 am in November) at the hotel. I think some guys, like Jake, come just for that BS session. He served on a boomer. But he loves tanks.

    Here is a pic of 3 Krazy Krauts warming up for more choir practice.

    Wow, in that case maybe I should attend the next event. Can't sing worth a dang, but boy oh boy do I have some war stories. You know there true when they all start with " Man this is no SH....T". LOL


    Jim

  22. #47

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    I remember the date every year. My father served in the navy on the USS Maryland. The Maryland was involved in a scuffle or two. He said it was mostly pure boredom with moments of sheer terror. He survived. Many didn't. That's why I'm here and someone else isn't. So any of you who think we should 'get over it' need to remember what the veterans of all branches have done to allow you the privilege of making such thoughtless comments!

  23. #48

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Our club here in Norfolk, Nebraska have our way of remembering. Those who can go out over the lunch hour and fly, no matter what the weather is. This year only 2 of us made it out. It was around freezing temps, snowing but we managed anyways. The 2 planes that flew were both corsairs and both had successful flights. I wish we could have gotten some pictures but our hands were freezing and we just wanted to get the heck back in our vehicles. We may not all post on RCU, but Iknow I don't forget.

    Jason

  24. #49

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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    Remembering and commemorating are always worth the time and effort. Watch this video. See how a remote villiage in France remembers a soldier a wife couldn't find. They had been taking care of him for 68 years in her absence.

    See if this doesn't tug at your heart strings. Thank God for people like this...Amen.

    http://www.youtube.com/embed/8TT1XFS1LA0
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    RE: A day that will live in infamy ?

    This has brought wet eyes to an Old 1SG. God bless Lt Harris and the French.

    Jim


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