Tanque

It seemed fairly obvious to a casual observer of this thread someone
not associated with modeling nor military history that there was a tangible
anti WWII era U.S. overtone to several comments. jerry

Panther G

It was actually Gen. Wesley Mcnair who almost single handedly got the Pershing tank scrapped. he had absolutely no idea of what was actually need and did everything he could to obstruct the production of the M26. Criminally in my opinion. The Pershing could have been deployed almost 6 months earlier if it werent for his and ordinances interference. Patton had no influence on the Pershing other than a concern about adapting to a whole new model of tank mid conflict. As far as what got built and when the US doctrine was totally incompetent. But we as Americans figure things out quickly and then go balls to the wall and get it fixed. At least we used too until the democrats got things all screwed up.

jarndice

My earlier comment noting the adaptability of the American soldier when surrounded by extraordinarily loud noises and lumps of flying metal added to your remarks would seem to indicate a national trait, might I as an onlooker suggest you nurture this innate talent. shaun

marshall

My Feedback: (5)

How this went from a thread about an interesting story to what it has become I don't care to try to figure out. And while I may admire certain members modeling skills, Being separated from those anti American individuals by ocean and our good allie England may be good for their nose.

jarndice

Amen my friend.shaun

lposter

Its pretty easy really..... its comments like this

that usually start the slide.

Which is then further worsened by indignant posts about anti-Americanism and so on and so forth.

if you go back and check you will quickly find that most of the irate, insult slinging about "communists", "socialists", "getting rolled" and "going 'merica" on various things come from one, presumably American, poster.

Instead of pandering to that sort of aggressive posting and contributing to taking the thread in directions noone wants to go....I suggest just biting your tongue (like the rest of us have to do), acting your ages and letting things go.

Unless of course ye really beleive that anything/one that questions whether the Western Allies won the war singlehandedly or could have beaten the Soviets in 1946 is anti-American.

In which case I suggest you leave the internet entirely as you may be too sensitive.

Otherwise....lets just try, like some of us have been, to keep on track.

P

rivetcounter

In WWII many European countries were occupied after their country was invaded by Germany and Russia in some cases both, these European countries were occupied for many years in some cases many decades the forgotten people of France, Belgium, Poland, Norway and Denmark to name but a few all had resistance forces who gave their lives spying and housing downed allied pilots or agents for these people if caught entire families were sent to KZ camps or shot, without the sacrifice from these people the allies would never even with total air superiority have retaken Europe these people paid dearly in countless bombing campaigns and also suffered reprisals for OSS and Commando raids to these people to live the rest of their lives in peace is payment enough.
Belgian resistance fighter of WWII you won’t find her in any books nor debated on the net yet she is just one of the many heroes who really won the war.


Gentlemen let us remember that everyone played a decisive role to bring WWII to an end no one person was more important than another

Tanque

Very well spoken Mark.

It was all before my time however with a significant portion of my relatives( actually the major portion ) living in Northern Italy during the those years I still recall hearing stories as a young child of what they had to go through as simple non combative folk in a non strategic village. I can only image what those involved in highly contested
areas went through. We in the States were isolated.

Somewhere I still have a letter a relative wrote to my mom about his time in Ethiopia, in what capacity I don't recall. I do remember my mom speaking of in it sorrowful tones.

War is no game that's a certainty.

Jerry

Rex Ross

That photo of the Belgian lady reminded me of a photo of my grandmother Dembik. The story behind her uniform is unknown to me, except that she loved Poland as much as she loved the United States, and did what she could to support the Allied war effort.

All of my grandparents came to the United States from Europe as children shortly before 1900. After WW II, I asked them about our many relatives over there. They all tried for years to locate various relatives, whether Polish, German or Russian. For whatever reason, they were never able to find anybody after the war. Not a single person.

Cruiser133

“Unlike yourself, I have actually read at least 5 of those plans. Not one talks with any conviction of "victory" over the Soviets.”

For your reading pleasure Iposter. Dropshot declassified in 1977. I have of course abbreviated it to a few short paragraphs to show once again your opinions are just that and are usually without merit. You may wish to brush up on your English comprehension and litteracy skills.

VI. SELECTION OF AILIED COURSES OF ACTION
1. Basic Undertakings
a. Examination and analysis of those courses of action retained for further consideration reveal that certain of them require no further analysis or comparison and are so necessary to a successful prosecution of the war as to be basic undertakings and thus become a first charge against our resources. These are as follows:
(1) Secure the Western Hemisphere.
(2) Conduct an air offensive against the Soviet powers.
(3) Hold the United Kingdom.
(4) Expand the overall power of the armed forces for later offensive operations against the Soviet powers.
(5) Conduct offensive operations to destroy enemy naval forces, shipping,
naval bases, and supporting facilities.
(6) Secure sea and air lines of communication essential to the accomplishment
of the overall strategic concept.
(7) Provide essential aid to our allies in support of efforts contributing directly
to the overall strategic concept.

Cruiser133

The plan continued...

[h=3]VOLUME 3. THE STRATEGIC COUNTER OFFENSIVE AND THE DEFEAT AND OCCUPATION OF THE USSR.[/h][h=4](PHASE I) DEVELOPMENT OF TASKS AND FORCE REQUIREMENTS[/h]The estimated Allied forces initially required for control of the USSR and satellite areas are set forth [below]. Subsequently these forces would be reduced as rapidly as possible, consistent with the degree and effectiveness of the accomplishment of their tasks.
(1) Army. USSR: Moscow (2 divisions); Leningrad (1); Minsk (1); Mur
mansk (1); Gorki (1); Kuibishev(l); Kiev(l); Kharkov (1); Odessa (1); Sevas
topol (1); Rostov (1); Novorossisk (1); Batumi (1); Baku (1); Sverdlovsk (1);
Chelyabinsk (1); Tashkent (1); Omsk (1); Novosibirsk (1); Irkutsk (1); Kha
barovsk (1); Vladivostok (1); Total: 23 divisions.
(2) Navy. Port Detachments: Black Sea—1 carrier task group; Baltic Sea—1
carrier task group.
[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable, width: 417"]
[TR]
[TD="width: 213, bgcolor: transparent"]Satellite Areas
[/TD]
[TD="width: 179, bgcolor: transparent"]Location
[/TD]
[TD="width: 155, bgcolor: transparent"]Divisions
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Germany
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Berlin
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Hamburg
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Poland
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Danzig
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Warsaw
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Czechoslovakia
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Prague
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Estonia
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Tallinn
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Latvia
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Riga
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Lithuania
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Kaunas
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Hungary
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Budapest
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Romania
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Bucharest
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Constanta
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Bulgaria
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Sofia
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Yugoslavia
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Belgrade
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Zagreb
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1 (-1 RCT)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Albania
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Tirana
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1 (RCT)
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Korea
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Seoul
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]1
[/TD]
[/TR]
[TR]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]
[/TD]
[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]15 Div
[/TD]
[/TR]
[/TABLE]

Cruiser133

“Which is then further worsened by indignant posts about anti-Americanism and so on and so forth.”
“if you go back and check you will quickly find that most of the irate, insult slinging about "communists", "socialists", "getting rolled" and "going 'merica" on various things come from one, presumably American, poster.”

Really? You put yourself out there as some “serious student of history”(doubtful), denigrate my contributions and question my intellect, post ridiculous assertions about the western allies in general, continue with the allied soldiers not having “the balls” to fight in particular then have the gall to post this?!? You wonder why I have taken exception to your opinions? Look over my posting history if you wish. How often do you see me being confrontational?

Unlike you, I have the courage to claim what I have put forth and I have paid back in kind. I do apologize for using an American pop culture reference of “Merica” which you obviously don’t understand. For your information, it is generally attributed first to George W. Bush who would pronounce “America” in his native Texas accent which sounded like “Merica”. When we were attacked after 9/11, Bush stated with “cowboy” assurance “You are either for us or against us”. Here is the further expansion of the definition of the word according to the Urban dictionary in case your Google-fu is as bad as your understanding of history.

2. Merica
A whole new way of saying America. As America falls into the category of a nation, Merica is the whole experience of America summed up in a stereotypical way. Eating anything deep-fried, shooting shotguns, getting so fat you attempt to use the force to levitate it off the coffee table, all compressed into one word. People often say it when they see Americans doing things only Americans can do, such as: trimming a hedge with a chainsaw, eating quadruple burgers with extra lard, and driving tractors in the middle of a freeway. It is often expressed in a proud and commonly exaggerated manor. This phrase is one to be only used when the time comes to say it, like at a eating contest or at a mud pit wrestling match.

“Instead of pandering to that sort of aggressive posting and contributing to taking the thread in directions noone wants to go....I suggest just biting your tongue (like the rest of us have to do), acting your ages and letting things go.”

“Unless of course ye really beleive that anything/one that questions whether the Western Allies won the war singlehandedly or could have beaten the Soviets in 1946 is anti-American.”

Nobody has stated the “Western Allies won the war singlehandedly” and YOU disparaged Patton as a fool for daring to think the allies could beat the invincible soviet army. I have attempted to contest this erroneous assertion with my follow-up posts and YOU have engaged in “aggressive posting” by questioning the honor and fighting spirit of the western allies with outright accusations of cowardice.

Need I remind you ONCE AGAIN, many of us have family who ACTUALLY fought in that conflict. With every word you put forth, you further prove your obvious “anti-American” mindset. I know, Americans have a reputation of showing a bit of swagger and it has bothered you for years as you come from a small country that doesn’t contribute much to world events so I understand your natural angst. As several others have stated, Americans are indeed a proud nation and NOBODY will question our soldiers bravery and not be called out for it.

“In which case I suggest you leave the internet entirely as you may be too sensitive.

Otherwise....lets just try, like some of us have been, to keep on track.”

I doubt you can do more to convince most here of your arrogance and complete separation from reality after writing such drivel. Sir, your hypocrisy knows no bounds. You already threw the moderator flag out there in a previous post when your sensitivity was offended then you dare suggest to another member to “leave the internet” if he cant handle the heat? I really don’t have the time or inclination to go back and quote all the crap you have put out there to further prove my point.

Bottom line, You can thank the western allies for keeping you free to post such inane opinions. As in, given the chance, the Soviets would have rolled your country in a fortnight and your people would be under occupation once again. Why don’t you ask the Eastern Europeans who lived under the yoke of Soviet servitude how that went?

You are hip deep in the mud then admonish others for slinging it, amazing…

Cruiser133

Gentlemen let us remember that everyone played a decisive role to bring WWII to an end no one person was more important than another

I completely agree Rivet and I apologize to anyone here who may be under the impression I thought otherwise.

lposter

I doubt it. My comprehension skills are pretty good. Yours however seem to be lacking.

Consider two folltball teams, A and B who will meet in a match. A has a documented plan and knows its stregths. B has a plan whih A has not seen and A does not know Bs strengths.

An examonation of Team As plan cannot in itself provide information leading to assessing who would win the match. Thats logic.

Dropbox was a plan...it didnt make an assessment. It can talk all it wants about this and that but without knowing Bs plan (and you dont)...you can say nothing about liklihood of victory.

The documents I refer to actually make assessments.

At any rate...Dropbox was in itself "dropped" as it made a series of well recognised mistakes:

1. it assumed that nuclear weapons would not be decisive in 1957 - a fact which had become obvious by 1953.
2. it made no effort to even estimate soviet forces.

You would have been better off reading Operation Unthinkable......the British assessment and plan for war in 1945.

This plan described the A llies chances in a war for control of Poland in 1945 and assessed the chances. Note - a war for a Poland, a limited objective, it didnt even attempt to "win" a war against teh Soviets.

As the British point out, the Allies were outnumbered 4 to 1 in infantry, 2 to 1 in tanks and 3 to 1 in artillery. The report states that if half of all Allied forces attacked teh Soviets near Dresden and had the support of the entire Royal Navy as it crept along the coast......then only with total surprise had theya remote chance of controlling Poland.

Without complete surprise and without reaching Poland before the autumn of 1945, the British assessed that the Soviets would crush them. They also assessed that in that event, the Americans would leave Europe for the Pacific and then Britain would be crushed by the Soviets using longe range rocket attacks to reduce fortress Britain beofre finally invading

So Im afraid Dropbox does nothing to suport your argument at all. In fact it damages it given that seeing as Dropbox thought nuclear weapons wouldnt be decisive in 1957 and yet 3 years later the largets bomb ever was detonated (by the Soviets).

Quote:

You put yourself out there as some “serious student of history”(doubtful), denigrate my contributions and question my intellect,

NO I dont. prove it. So where I question your intellect. I think your own insecurities are coming to the fore...

I will leave "go 'merica" alone for now...because I think what you really meant is "go 'merica no my ass" or something which, according to the internet, has an entirely different meaning than what you contend the shorter version to mean.

an

Quote:

d YOU disparaged Patton as a fool for daring to think the allies could beat the invincible soviet army

When your allies, your own leaders, your own inteligence service and your own military strategists think you couldnt beat them....then Patton was a fool for thinking he could.

Small country maybe....but we have enough money that it will be us who bail the US out when the Chinese come looking for the cash they have to lend you so you can keep contributing to world events.

I think the US performed, on average, badly in Europe in WWII....more likely out of logic than a lack of bravery. Why would anyone want to die in the closing days of a European war that had little relevance for teh US from the get go?

Not a lack of bravery in so much as a surplus of sense. This fact being recognised by folks such as O.Carius when he said he'd rather face 30 Americans than 5 Soviets.

You are going to have to avoid reading books by anyone other than official American historians or you are going to be very offended indeed.

II do however and I will remind you of gems like this one from yourself:

The above is of course another logic failure on your part. Why should appreciation of a past event predicate consideration of the outcome of a future one? It cannot.

p

karel47

wise words tanque and mark let's remember the fallen who saved us from nazi occupation

did you know belgian farmers kicked back napoleon's troops at waterloo, it was a swamp but they did ... of the record