ksoc

Maybe our russian members can explain why all those ethic russians are living in the countries neighboring Russia?

What happened to the people in those territories before they got there?

Why do russians make up a majority of Crimea? What happened to the original inhabitants?

What have the russians done to make the surrounding countries fear them so much?

If things are so bad, and the russians don't consider themselves natives of those countries, why don't they go home to Russia? Putin needs russians, and would welcome them.

DirtyBird69

I've tried to not get into this debate, and Rivet is free to have his opinion, but like most of us I feel he is completely off base with his argument. For somebody that is so knowledgeable about every little detail he seems to ignore the facts in front of his face. Putin is doing EXACTLY what Hitler did by annexing parts of countries. And like then all the countries of the world including us here in the USA, are just standing around with our thumbs up our butts watching it happen. As for the Israel comment that REALLY chaps me....Israel has only ever DEFENDED itself from superior numbers from enemies that practically surround it, even when being attacked from all sides simultaneously...and they kicked butt every time! Other then Jerusalem which has been fought over for generations, nobody wanted or cared about the Israeli territory until they(Israelis) built it into something to be proud of...now all the Arabs want it..go figure.



"It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea, not Palestinians. There is no language known as Palestinian, or any Palestinian culture distinct from that of all the Arabs in the area. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. "Palestinians" are Arabs indistinguishable from Arabs throughout the Middle East. The great majority of Arabs in greater Palestine and Israel share the same culture, language and religion.
Much of the Arab population in this area actually migrated into Israel and Judea and Samaria from the surrounding Arab countries in the past 100 years. The rebirth of Israel was accompanied by economic prosperity for the region. Arabs migrated to this area to find employment and enjoy the higher standard of living. In documents not more than hundred years, the area is described as a scarcely populated region. Jews by far were the majority in Jerusalem over the small Arab minority. Until the Oslo agreement the major source of income for Arab residents was employment in the Israeli sector. To this day, many Arabs try to migrate into Israel with various deceptions to become a citizen of Israel.
Even the Chairman of the Palestinian Authority, Arafat himself, is not a "Palestinian". He was born in Egypt. The famous "Palestinian covenant" states that Palestinians are "an integral part of the Arab nation" -- a nation which is blessed with a sparsely populated land mass 660 times the size of tiny Israel (Judea, Samaria and Gaza included).
All attempts to claim Arab sovereignty over Israel of today, should be seen with their real intention: The destruction of Israel as a Jewish state and the only bulwark of the Judeo-Christian Western civilization in the Middle East."

p.s. I'm not even Jewish so I don't have a dog in the fight...these are just the FACTS...

YHR

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the people of the region vote to rejoin the Russian Federation?

Just try to weave through the sabre rattling to find the facts of this event.

I am trying to put this in perspective, if the province of Quebec separated from Canada, and then 5 years later decided they were better off being a part of Canada, and the population of Quebec voted to rejoin Canada, would this be seen the same way around the rest of the world? Would Canada be linked to Hitler for welcoming Quebec back, and raising the Canadian flag again in Quebec City?

Is the fact that this region democratically voted to join the Russian Federation mean little to anyone?

Does the fact that there is little to no civil unrest in the region suggest this is actually the will of the people, and the vote was in fact a clear representation of the voting public?

The thing that is scary to me is that if we let propaganda and rhetoric rule the day a war could be started over this in the worse case scenario, and the best case is another economic meltdown. And for what - because a region of the world democratically voted to rejoin a Federation they were once part of??

I am a proud Canadian, and believe in Democracy, and the will of the people. "God keep our land, Glorious and Free" rings true to my heart, but I don't understand what people are getting so upset over. I don't understand why the West is so quick to make this an us against them kind of thing. It is dangerous and reckless. We live in a world that allows us to talk and think with people of differing view points. My belief is that if people are allowed to discover the truth, then rational behaviour will prevail.

Bob lives in the region and has boots on the ground. Sounds like he is not to upset, and in fact is looking forward to living under Law and order the Russian federation will bring to the region.

I am sitting back here trying to take all this information in so I can then decide on my own, what the truth is. I do not trust my politicians or news media to do that for me. Both of these institutions have lost all of my respect over the past decade.

For the good of all, step back with an open mind and re-evaluate what has happened at is simplest form. What do the people of Crimea want? This is their choice, not ours.

This is my perception, but I have an open mind. If people have facts to this situation that will change my perception of what has and is happening, I would be glad to hear them.

Onondaga

Crimea's "democratic" cessation would have more legitimacy if it wasn't overrun with Russian troops, gunships and APCs just a few days prior to the vote..

Tanque

I trust the decision the citizens made was open and honest. I don't profess to have an thorough understanding of the
political dynamics of the area to make a meaningful comment. I think many in the USA have a tendency to choose sides
on an emotional level favoring perceived 'underdogs' as we once were in the earliest days of our national identity.

I wish them all well.
Jerry

YHR

Very true. That did not help the world perception of the events, but has anything happened in Crimea since that leads anyone to believe this was not wanted by the people that live there?. There is unrest in the Ukraine, but in Crimea things are pretty calm.

If facts come out about atrocities being committed against Crimeans at the hands of the Russians, of course my perception would swing 180 degrees on the events, but so far that is not happening is it?. I am asking as I really don't know. Has anyone got any info that that Crimeans are suffering hardships under Russian rule or been subject to any atrocity of any kind??. Seems to me that is the most stabile part of the region right now. Has anyone got any info to suggest that the Crimeans are not happy with what has happened.

Again my perception and action by the Crimeans since the vote indicate to me there are happy with the result. Should we not respect that. As a citizen of the world I do not want to see an economic meltdown or War started over misconceptions of the truth. I will go on record as saying I am no pacifist and believe in the ideals that the strong need to protect the weak from injustice. But something so important needs to be driven by facts and not rhetoric.

Putin and this action should not go unnoticed, and the world needs to be very aware of what is happening, but I also believe we need to review the facts, and not start linking this action to those of Hitler in the 30's. The West should stand behind and respect the democratic process that protects the will of the people.

wsn123

"It was only after the Jews re-inhabited their historic homeland of Judea and Samaria, that the myth of an Arab Palestinian nation was created and marketed worldwide. Jews come from Judea..."

another point of view ...

The Invention of the Jewish People
http://www.amazon.com/Invention-Jewi.../dp/1844676234

"The destruction of Israel as a Jewish state and the only bulwark of the Judeo-Christian Western civilization in the Middle East"

???

lposter

Well this turned out much as expected.

Lets not forget that the sudeten Germans and the Austrians both

both "voluntarily" signed up to the Reich.

And how did that work out for everyone?

P

ksoc

I did not fully understand the russian love of elections and allowing people decide their own destiny. Did I miss the election that was held in Chechnya?

… and still no explanation on how all the pro russian people got to Crimea in the first place….



Now for some topical humor:

"What's his plan?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rb0QLxcvowk

"We will be lucky to live through it"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emdzsz_XvfA

YHR

And how does this past fact have anything do with what is happening now, and that is the danger when you start dragging up past atrocities and connecting that to the events of today. Stay on guard, be mindful, but the present situation is not the past, and if you are not careful you will go to war to fight a battle that was already fought if you can't make this distinction.

DirtyBird69

The face of free and fair elections:

DirtyBird69

Here Here!

ksoc

Russia needs russians.

Putin has proved - twice now - that if he cannot get them to move home to Russia, he is willing to go to them.

First invading Georgia, then Crimea. Then holding "elections" to give it a veneer of legitimacy. There are a lot of other Eastern European countries with large russian populations that Mother Russia might want to reach out and "protect". Some of those countries are NATO members. Article 5 of the NATO treaty state that an attack on one is an attack on all.

Just because you are not looking for war, don't think that war is not looking for you.

dyeager535

My Feedback: (1)

I think that is the problem. Were this someone else, someone who was not so brutish in most dealings with other countries/regions/freedoms, this would be largely seen as an event that was likely to occur. Lawful (I assume, I wasn't on the ground) elections conducted, will of the people has been heard. On the one hand, I've heard it said that the West's extension of it's sphere of influence is never challenged (Russia being hemmed in by NATO on one side), yet when Russia tries to extend it's influence, it is a world crisis. Not particularly fair. Also, if lawlessness and corruption will be less in Crimea under Russian rule, that's not a bad thing.

BUT...Crimea started to fall apart because of protests that turned deadly in Kiev. Against a government that was aligned with Russia. Russia apparently did NOTHING to tone that down, and that, plus the flexing of their military muscle in that region, leads many to believe that this was orchestrated and simply used to take advantage of the situation.

Not bringing in historical context at all, he comes off (and events even within Russia seem to prove the same) as a heavy-handed bully, and I guess those in Crimea think the grass will be greener on the other side. And it may be, they will find out.

YHR

Dyeager535, makes some good points.

sevoblast

Again, thank all of you fellow tankers for your support and concern during this difficult time. I have removed my last post as you see and will post no more on this subject. If anyone wants an update or details you can PM me or email me.

I have asked Ken to remove the thread.

Bob, aka Sevoblast

dyeager535

My Feedback: (1)

The media from here has people on the ground reporting too what they see. Every report, taken from every person, is only a slice of the real picture. That slice is how stories are slanted.

As far as I can tell, this story is so much less about Ukraine now...it's about Russia's involvement in what has happened. That is why Russia is getting hit with sanctions from the US and EU, and why they aren't going to ease up. As I said earlier, this has less to do with secession than it does who is the one pulling the strings for the Russian side.

In hindsight, the US has been responsible for similar time after time.

Elefant

Ok, it is time to lock this thread.

twoplanekid

What are the motives of the leaders of nations? Before WWII,the German people were elated by the actions of their leader. Before the start of actual war, many lands were peacefully annexed by the Germans with many of those people wanting this to happen. Is the same scenario taking place?

Today, many leaders of other countries are concerned by the actions of another leader. My hope is that the US and Canada are not once again pulled into a conflict that resulted from inaction or misunderstanding on the part of many European leaders to recognize the intentions of another leader of a powerful nation in Europe.

All leaders’ motives should be questioned. Heck, we do it all the time in the US.

rivetcounter

This is interesting in that you see this as a European problem and not that of the US, could you then tell us why the US has been well and truly involved taking sides, imposing sanctions and also opting for more sanctions, one could argue that it’s not a European problem but that of the US and that Europeans don’t wish to be brought into a US lead problem.

It’s comments like this that lead to arguments and war’s

Panther G

Because it is a NATO problem. Though Ukraine is not a NATO member I believe they would rather be NATO that to be annexed back into the USSR which is what Putin fully intends to resurrect. If any one thinks that not true than they have had their heads in the sand for the last 10 years.

Panther G

Democratically voted? With armed troops by the thousands and APC,s and helicopters. Be it as it may a good majority of these people may want to be part of Russia again, but the tactics employed by Putin are not deniable. This was hardly a legal event.

YHR

The second video sums up why I chose to get involved in this discussion. Sabre Rattling and Rhetoric that care little about the facts have started wars before.

My kids ask me how in the world did the German people fall for "Hitler's Rule" I tell them they were fed a bunch of lies. The vulnerable were signaled out as the enemy, and all that was wrong in the world was pinned on them as the cause. Propaganda and lies then went into full gear to stir the passion of discontent, and once the crowd mentality was embraced, they would do anything to follow their leader, which included the conquest of Europe and Asia.

All I ask is people look at the facts, and decide for themselves.

I will concede that Russian Troops in Crimea before the election does not look good. With an open mind though, what if the Russians were there only to protect and enforce law and order?. For our troops we consider that a noble cause. That is why we were in Afghanistan. Last I checked we had thousands of troops in another country doing the same thing.

It appears to me if the will of the Crimeans is clear and they are pleased that order is restored. Does anyone truly believe that the majority of the Crimeans don't want to part of the Russian Federation? At the end of the day that is all that truly matters in this.

A referendum was held and they voted overwhelmingly to go back to being part of the Russian Federation. So if the will of the people, and safety of if its populace, are the result of the Russian action, why are we engaging in an economic war? Sorry I just don't get it, so I am asking the question. if we are going to tank the economy again, or worse get involved in another conflict, I just want to know why.

hairy46

My Feedback: (1)

Best wishes from us in Wyoming"

DirtyBird69

If the Russians were there to "protect" why was it necessary to wear black ski masks and cover/remove all their insignia??? They could have had local Ukranian authorities do the job of security or at least had the Russians invited and come in a peaceful manor(which I think I'ld still disagree with), but anything would have been better then marching in and escorting Ukrainian officials out of their offices in ski masks and carrying AK-47's. If the folks in Crimea want to be part of Russia, then fair enough, but Putin is a complete thug and what he did was blatantly wrong! I feel bad for the Russian people, everyone I've ever met from Russia has been very personable,genuine, and very easy to bond with. Makes me wonder how the Cold War ever started...but unfortunately they cant seem to shake themselves loose of the tyrants that run the country..my comments are targeted only at Putin and his band of thugs and not the Russian people. I'll give Russia credit though, at least they have a leader with some cohunes unlike the pigeon we got here in the U.S.