YHR

The good thing about post like this, is that it allows debate. Seldom is anything so black and white as we think it is. The more people understand the grey, the more intelligent the discussion should become.

We have to count on dialogue like this, because otherwise it is all a propaganda game. What allowed the Nazi's idealism to flourish?. The inability of the critics to voice their concern and opinion. The brown coats locked up or killed everyone who didn't share the vision. So far better to have the dialogue and get to the truth then to believe the propaganda from either side,.

lposter

I would agree but from whats happened here ...I dont think this is a debate. Its more statements of propoganda and not just about Ukraine.

And I doubt anything that happens here will approach anything like the truth. Ever.

You just have to read back through some of the posts and see how removed from even the the most losse definitions of reality that some of them are.

p

evarnad

Oh, I'm sorry I thought you were British, my bad.

rivetcounter

No I’m English though I still haven’t got a clue what you are babbling on about, care to elaborate.

B/Man

I'm glad there are no active mods to shut this thread down. It started out as an interesting local view on the situation in Crimea but now it has gone off the rails it makes for some very entertaining reading.

evarnad

Since your not British and I'm babbling, I guess you don't have the need to know.

Cruiser133

I hate to tell you this iposter, but you don't have the market cornered on what defines "reality" or truth. This is the internet gentleman and opinions are like a-holes, everybody has one. I have already pm'ed Bob to apologize for contributing to the thread drift.

YHR

LOL, I try to stay on topic, and that was one of my concerns People starting to link this event to things that happened 70 years ago. We fought that war already. Let focus on the facts of this incident and decide for ourselves if the people of Crimeas even want to be saved.

There were some existing agreements that allowed Russia to protect its ethnic citizenship and it's military assets in Crimea. These agreements were done when Crimea was given to the Ukraine in 1954. So our lack of understanding will cause us unnecessary hardships, as we throw on sanctions for Russia executing an agreement they had in place when they gave Crimea to the Ukraine.

The stuff I am reading about now really concerns me as I would have expected our leaders to understand this situation a little better before they threw our fragile economic recovery under the bus.. If an existing agreement is in place and the Crimean government exercised their part of the deal, the Russians have done exactly what they are allowed to do, under the agreement that has been around since Crimea was a gift to the Ukraine.

I understand there are other agreements like this in place on some of the Eastern Ukraine Provinces as well.........................................

dyeager535

My Feedback: (1)

This isn't 1983, there will be no war over this. NATO has the "attack one attack all" mantra, but Ukraine isn't part of that. Additionally, no one here nor in that region has the stomach for a bloodbath. If we *really* wanted to blow this out of proportion, we'd have planes flying in Ukraine already.

The interesting thing is that the EU and Russia are the ones who are lining up to hurt themselves. As someone else said, Russia is a gas station, their exports are fuel. If the EU can get an alternate source (partially a reason for internal calls here to open up energy exports, the other is likely greed) then Russia is going to have little bargaining power. If Europe can't get a reliable source, and Putin decides to play *** for tat, he can always see their sanctions and raise them no fuel. Funny thing about the EU, if Russia cripples a few countries in the EU that aren't doing so well already (like Romania and Bulgaria?) by limiting importation of fuels (again) or raising prices, it hurts the entire union. Doesn't matter if Germany has enough energy, or France, it's going to hurt them all.

An issue as I understand it now is that parts of Ukraine that DIDN'T secede are now talking about it, and those are the parts that are actually "productive" (as in manufacturing, raw materials, etc) and I assume should those go, Ukraine may be a country with no future at all.

I haven't been watching our markets lately, but I suspect this has done little to influence them. There is apparently no intention or interest in us getting militarily involved, Russia is fairly unimportant to us in trade at this time, Ukraine is of no consequence to us, so other than some not-so-important sanctions being slapped on, I don't see it going any further...things are going to play out as Putin wants them to in that region, because no one in the West is willing to stop him, and I don't blame them, when the citizens are getting what they want.

I heard the worst the West can do at this point is prevent well-off Russians from sending their kids to school in Europe, and not letting them vacation there either lol.

YHR

Yes you are probably right. One Canadian company had a 3 billion dollar deal for trains with Russia, and that deal is supposedly not going to happen now. So honestly this rhetoric seems so senseless, and I am more worried about the economic fallout then anything else. Another world financial crisis is all we need.

rgburrill

So what really happend in Bengahzi? Who was behind the IRS scandal? Notice how these important issues to the US citizen have been overshadowed but somthing most American could care less about?

lposter

Cannot argue with that.

But you dont need to be a genius to notice that repeatedly stating odd beliefs and conspiracy theories ad nauseum is hardly a process that gets one to the truth or "reality" irrespective of who has the market cornered.

So this thread is neither about the truth or reality nor is it making, in the main, any attempts to get there.

So using that as a reason to keep it open is fairly pointless.

BUt the British RC Tank forum is looking mightily attractive right now. For some reason they seem to be able to keep this sort of nonsense at a very low level.

p

rivetcounter

Gas was quoted as in the universal sense gas as in gas not the American gas as in Benzene, the two are quite different

dyeager535

My Feedback: (1)

No I think I understand you, I meant petroleum products in general...much of Europe relies on Russian exports as I understand it. Last time there was a scuffle they turned off the taps in Bulgaria (at least) and that wasn't pretty.

rivetcounter

This was for gas most of Europe’s Benzine and diesel comes from the middle east, one of the problems is that Europe to a degree is reliant on Russian gas for the time being England is starting to produce its own shale gas and there are a number of European countries who are also capable of producing shale gas though for various reasons have not done so, the Arguments in Ukraine have nothing to do with gas

Cruiser133

I would caution you to consider that beliefs cannot be "odd", they are just, well beliefs. They may be or may not be based on "reality" and quite outside the mainstream but to the person who holds them they may seem reasonable, hence again why they are labeled beliefs. I may not agree, but I respect their right to hold them. I feel belittling other's for their beliefs, faith, ect, is the seed of conceit and ultimately hypocrisy. What is very real to you may seem fantastical to others. It doesn’t mean at least in my case, I will hesitate to respond in kind to outlandish conspiracy theories and label it rubbish when I FEEL it has no basis in fact, but I TRY to never attack the person(I rarely succeed as I am quite fallible). Nor do I feel it is pointless to engage others in debate, I come here for enlightenment with regard to tanks and RC related items and above all entertainment. It may not seem like it, but I appreciate even your contributions in the geopolitical related threads. When I cease to find those threads entertaining, I simply won’t open them. I will not hide the fact that I am a stereotypical flag waving patriotic nationalist “murican” who shops at Wal-Mart and I can except any criticism based on that, what I don’t want to be is the internet intellectual(I doubt I will ever be falsely labeled as an intellectual) Ivory Tower snob. Anyways, no harm, no foul. I am not mad, well, except with the one post communist troll last page who managed to raise a bit of ire… lol

.

lposter

At the risk of sounding "conceited" and "arrogant" I would contend that a belief can indeed be labelled as "odd" when it flies in the face of evidence.

As an example, a belief that a cow must a horse because they both have four legs is odd by any measure as it is a belief held in spite of the fact that a cow is patently not a horse. That person has the right to think a cow is a horse and good luck to him....but the belief is odd.

I will take this one (and I took it at random...I could have taken one from anyone else to prove my point) at the risk of coming across as a communist troll:

If I remember, the world was entirely unconvinced....Hans Blix couldn't find any and the "coalition of the willing" was not very big.

We all remember Colin Powell (a man I admired until that point) with his pathetic, childish Powerpoint presentation to the UN and how we all squirmed in our seats at his little 3D pictures of trucks and stuff.

If thats not a "sell job" I don't what is.

It has to go down as the saddest moment in US history.

And therefore the belief that the 2nd Iraq war wasn't a sell job is "odd" as Colin Powell sat in the UN and tried to "sell" the war to everyone else.

So it was a "sell job" whether one likes to admit it or not. Unless one wants to contend that Colin Powell wasnt actually there that day or something.

But saying that, at least when the US/UK decide to invade somwhere on some dodgy pretext or other....they keep their flags on their uniforms and do not go around trying to pretend they are from somehere else.

I dont have any problem with being a "flag waving" anything....the problem is that the flapping flag tends to obscure your view somewhat.

P

lposter

And just to be a prat....heres a breakdown of troops in Iraq by 2006. Seeing as it is pretty much all American and a bunch of mercenaries (with a Mongolian chef or two)...I reckon it was mostly a Coalition of the Billing.

p

Cruiser133

"If I remember, the world was entirely unconvinced....Hans Blix couldn't find any and the "coalition of the willing" was not very big."

I contend your memory sucks...That George Bush and Colin Powell, Master con-artists! They managed to fool the WHOLE world, but not Iposter, he has the gift of hindsight! Hans Blix came later and even then, as I stated earlier, Saddam didnt play his hand very well when he constantly foiled every effort and made himself look worse than he probably was. All those UN resolutions were just window dressing right? Let me guess?? Haliberton? Blood for oil? What conspiracy do you favor for the reason for invasion?

"United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441 is a United Nations Security Council resolution adopted unanimously by the United Nations Security Council on 8 November 2002, offering Iraq under Saddam Hussein "a final opportunity to comply with its disarmament obligations" that had been set out in several previous resolutions (Resolution 660, Resolution 661, Resolution 678, Resolution 686, Resolution 687, Resolution 688, Resolution 707, Resolution 715, Resolution 986, and Resolution 1284).[1]

Resolution 1441 stated that Iraq was in material breach of the ceasefire terms presented under the terms of Resolution 687. Iraq's breaches related not only to weapons of mass destruction (WMD), but also the known construction of prohibited types of missiles, the purchase and import of prohibited armaments, and the continuing refusal of Iraq to compensate Kuwait for the widespread looting conducted by its troops during the 1990–1991 invasion and occupation. It also stated that "...false statements or omissions in the declarations submitted by Iraq pursuant to this resolution and failure by Iraq at any time to comply with, and cooperate fully in the implementation of, this resolution shall constitute a further material breach of Iraq's obligations."

On 8 November 2002, the Security Council passed Resolution 1441 by a unanimous 15–0 vote; Russia, China, France, and Arab states such as Syria voted in favor, giving Resolution 1441 wider support than even the 1990 Gulf War resolution."

dyeager535

My Feedback: (1)

*In* Ukraine, no. In the context of Russia vs. the West, which is what this is, it has everything to do with petroleum.

"Gennady Timchenko, the boss of an oil-trading firm called Gunvor"
http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/2...against-russia

"When the US expanded its sanctions on Thursday to include members of Vladimir Putin's inner circle, one name in particular jumped out: Gennady Timchenko"
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...list-sanctions

The sanctions and resulting economic fallout will have almost everything to do with petroleum exports from Russia. They are ~30% of Europe's imports, and "Russia main exports are oil and natural gas (58 percent of total exports)" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Russia

Like I said earlier, what is actually happening to Ukraine is of little consequence to the West. How the Crimean secession happened, and how Russia is being penalized for it and the ongoing issues there, have everything to do with petroleum.

lposter

Sorry Cruiser but dont make me point out that the willing coalition as represented by troops in iraq was not very big.

And some of them were bribed by promises of US aid.

There is no conspiracy. There were no wmds. There was no evidence of them.

Why the US went to war in iraq is probably best known tl GWB and Dick Cheney.

But if you contend that the US really believed Colin Powells retarded presentatiln of the evidence. . . .then you insult the US.

I imagine the UN was just trying to avoid a unilateral war by the "with us or against us" US.

I wonder how all the legless and crippled vets view the war now?

A war that achieved nothing, had no real purpose, wrecked your economy and bred more "terrorists" than it killed.

"Thank you for your service" mudt ring very hollow to their ears.

Because who exactly were they serving? Not the US public and thats for sure.
P

mustclime

Please stop watching Fox fake news.....it causes Drain Bamage Most Americans couldn't give a rats butt about crap that happened in Libia or to some right wing tax cheats...all that matters today is "DA Plane, Da Plane"........that other stuff is so 10 minutes ago.

Panther G

I do not have a problem with territories or countries what want to be connected with there ancestral home land. I just dont like the fact that Putin seems to think that every country that speaks Russian should be part of Russia.
In the states we have many area's that still prefer to speak in their native language which is perfectly fine.
The issue I have is for these governments that use underhanded techniques to de stabilze and area to get them to want to re join the USSR. That in which is just what Putin wants. The glory days of the USSR. Which I see no benefit for doing it .The older generations still by into the communist theory which has been proven over and over again to fail. It is the younger people that where born and live in the post cold war era. They all seem to want more independence than any one has seen in a long time now.
Again I see no problem for a territory to want to maintain ties with thier former leaders but it should always be done freely and openly without a heavy "mystery " army knocking down doors and holding the home military at bay. How is that free and open. It isn't. It is cohersion in it's simplest form. So if Crimea wants to be a part of Russia fine. But if the majority of Ukraine wants to be independent then they should be allowed.

Cruiser133

So I provide factual evidence to counter your assertions, and you only respond with more baseless assertions? If I understand you correctly, you now are the expert and can safely speak for AMERICAN vets who served in Iraq on the worthiness of their cause? Who is proselytizing their beliefs now on how that cow is a horse?
There was indeed evidence of WMD and the world was indeed convinced of it through channels provided by sources other than US based. Many European agencies concluded that Saddam DID have WMD by investigating through their own means, they did not simply take Dick Cheney at his word, and you insult them if that is what you BELIEVE.
I now for a FACT, I have had many conversations with Iraq vets that are family members, co-workers and close friends who all appreciate “Thank you for your service” and are quite convinced their cause was just. In any large sample of people there will always be outliers, but the few disgruntled do not represent the majority. I do not know of any sizable ground swell of American vets who share your views.
Please stop basing your opinions solely on European socialist propaganda sources. Our economy didn’t tank due to the war as you assert, but rather from the housing bubble bursting and the banking scandals among other war unrelated issues. In fact, the economy did not take a serious downturn until late 2008 into 2009.
The conflict may or may not have “created” more terrorists, who is to tell? I do know many were sent to Allah on foreign soil and not here. Bin Laden and most of his top lieutenants are dead, their organization will take years to recover, if ever, and regime change in the middle east as far as Iraq has led to reasonable stability in that area.

lposter

Oh Cruiser.

You have to read the posts. I wondered how those vets feel.

Not that I have to much longer. I just ordered Finckleys new book on the matter.

But I guess the tragic tales of alchoholism, suicide, abuse, sickness, tailer parks and abandonment by the US

government will be a depressing read. Thank you for your service indeed.

You have to stop listening to US propaganda, lower your flag and take a good look around.

P