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Tiger I painting questions

Old 07-03-2014, 06:49 PM
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metalhead1986
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Default Tiger I painting questions

While I wait for my ETO order to come in, and to get back from vacation, I have been researching painting topics for my Tiger.

The first thing I researched was painting the tools. I know some tanks had their tools painted over with the base color and camo, but I want to paint the tools separately. My questions come down to the techniques involved in getting the woodland metal parts looking right.

For the wood handles, I watched some videos on making realistic looking wood grain n the plastic, and there is the tool painting kit from Ammo by Mig that looks promising. What kinds of techniques and paints do you use when trying to portray wood handles (besides replacing the plastic handles with wood handles. )?

Next are the metal parts of the tools. There is Metalcote by Humbrol, as well as various metallic colors from Mig, Vallejo, and others. What colors and techniques are used in tank modeling to get that metallic look?

Thanks again for any and Al help here.

Sreve
Old 07-03-2014, 07:40 PM
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thecommander
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Your parts are on the way Steve. Look at the real tanks at Samur, Munster & Bovington too. Some tools you can see the grain and on some you can't. I have seen very few tools painted over but the clamps are. Some guys miss that. New tools are grey or silverish. Used too have the finish worn off and some shovels are muddy. Do you want it to look like the day is rolled out of the factory or after two months on the Front? There are a load of pix in my post from our (Martin, Steve, Dennis & I) 2012 tank mus. dream tour in Europe. http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-t...ur-2012-a.html

Hope it helps. Bob\

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Old 07-04-2014, 03:45 AM
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Wood handles on tools are probably the easiest to pull off because the surface area is smaller as opposed to making a table top look convincing. There are a bunch of systems out there, but really all you need is an appropriate base color and a darker shade for the grain. I keep old useless brushes that have the bristles screwed up just for wood texture, but you can cut a cheap brush so there are only as few hairs sticking out.
Paint the base color (light for sunbleached or darker for newish) and then with the dark color (heavily thinned), drag the cut brush down the length in a straight line. If your bristles are spread correctly, you'll get nice thin grain lines. Then weather by dirtying where the hands would grip it. If you really want to go crazy, you can dent the axe handle were it would contact stuff under the head. Practice on some old sprue pieces or any scrap plastic until you get a smooth brush stroke.

For the tool heads, I go the same I would with tracks, then maybe add some oil staining. Here's an old tutorial using Tamiya colors, I do the same now but with Vallejo. The pencil would be used around axe heads, etc.

http://ausfwerks.com//techniques/tracks/main.html

This one too, up to the whitewash:

http://ausfwerks.com//techniques/spare/main.html

Last edited by ausf; 07-04-2014 at 03:52 AM.
Old 07-04-2014, 03:58 AM
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There's another wood technique described in this one:

http://ausfwerks.com//techniques/painttiger/main.html
Old 07-04-2014, 09:25 AM
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metalhead1986
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Thanks for the link to the pictures Bob. I will be going through them to see how the full scale tanks are done.

I had already figured out that the clamps should not be painted, and that will be easy since I have the Aber clamps set up already. I can see missing that with the built in clamps on the kit parts.

I am going to start out factory fresh and go from there. I have never done any weathering, so any I do will be simple. I have ben looking into creating chips and scratches, and that does not seem too difficult.

Whatever I do, I will practice on scrap pieces first, and often.

Steve
Old 07-04-2014, 09:35 AM
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metalhead1986
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Thanks for the links ausf. Looks like I will be getting some iron oxide, along with the Metalcote and some metallic paints to try some various techniques and combinations.

For the wood, I saw a technique on YouTube that involved roughing up the surface with course sandpaper or sanding stick, painting a light base coat, followed by a couple coats of darker paint dry brushed to highlight the details, followed by a wash with one of the darker colors used previously. The effect was pretty convincing.

I think I will be getting various paints and see what looks best for the tools.

Steve
Old 07-04-2014, 09:42 AM
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metalhead1986
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Now onto the hull.

What color should the inside of the hatches be? I know it is different than the base color.

I read a couple of places tat the Tigers were base coated in a red color before the base coat of dunkelgelb or dunkelgrau was painted on. Do you go the extra step of painting this red coat, or do you just start with the base color? I guess it might be useful if used with chipping compound or the like. Otherwise, l am not so sure.

Thanks again,

Steve
Old 07-04-2014, 11:51 AM
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metalhead1986
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Well, after looking at the pictures in Bob's thread, watching Shark's video, and reading in other places, it seems that a couple of things I had read before were incorrect.

I see now that the inside of the hatches were painted the same color as the base color of the tank, with the periscopes and center of the commander's cupola being painted black.

That makes things easier on that count.

Now I am down to whether or not to base coat the tank with the red color.

Steve
Old 07-04-2014, 05:11 PM
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I generally stick with Vallejo these days, they have quite a few metallics in their lineup. There's also a group of 4 rust pigments too that'll cover all your needs.

Radone tan is the interior color your looking for, but generally the inside of the hatch would be oversprayed with the camo colors so they didn't stick out when open.

You can prime in red oxide and cover, or prime and basecoat and add red oxide chipping after.
Old 07-04-2014, 05:25 PM
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As far as the wood area, I like to dry brush the darker grains. One light color as the base, then dry brush a darker color.

Just my suggestion. Most of the wood was really dark anyway.





Jeff
Old 07-04-2014, 10:04 PM
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Originally Posted by metalhead1986
Well, after looking at the pictures in Bob's thread, watching Shark's video, and reading in other places, it seems that a couple of things I had read before were incorrect.

I see now that the inside of the hatches were painted the same color as the base color of the tank, with the periscopes and center of the commander's cupola being painted black.

That makes things easier on that count.

Now I am down to whether or not to base coat the tank with the red color.

Steve
I am glad that huge thread helped you. I am a very lucky guy to have been able to see all those great machines and even get inside a few at Bovington with Martin, Dennis (who I got to battle with during his surprise trip to Danville past weekend...WOW) & Steve.

I hope to see many more and take even more pix on my return trip to the EU leaving tomorrow...my kids are VERY excited to see more WW II sites.

The wife....not so much???????? I thing she will be at the beach with suntan oil while Martin and I and navigating Pont du Hoch & the Omaha Beach Museum.
Old 07-06-2014, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by metalhead1986
Now onto the hull.

What color should the inside of the hatches be? I know it is different than the base color.

I read a couple of places tat the Tigers were base coated in a red color before the base coat of dunkelgelb or dunkelgrau was painted on. Do you go the extra step of painting this red coat, or do you just start with the base color? I guess it might be useful if used with chipping compound or the like. Otherwise, l am not so sure.

Thanks again,

Steve

I like to make the primer coat Grey primer, and some people even use black. I then airbrush on the color base coat varying the thickness. The purpose of the dark primer is that it really helps the base coat come alive, and on a scale tank, it gives the paint real depth. The effect is dramatic if done properly.

Every historic record I've seen and read indicates that all or almost all panzers, early war to mid-war period regardless of type, had their interiors painted white. The interior of the hatches may have been a different color as they were visible to enemy observation, after all.
As the war progressed by mid to late 1944 and after, most tanks were painted in the red oxide primer. Inside and out. The interior of the tank, all new and rebuilt tanks, was left in the red primer.
Morover the camo pattern of late war tigers and panthers was changed to have either the red oxide, or a light green (dunkelgrun) as the base. (From 1943 to this period, sand yellow-"sand gelb" was the base color with olive drab and brown). Then sand and brown was used for the rest of the pattern.

Last edited by Marc780; 07-06-2014 at 06:10 PM.
Old 08-12-2014, 12:25 PM
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metalhead1986
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Duplicate post

Last edited by metalhead1986; 08-12-2014 at 12:33 PM.
Old 08-12-2014, 12:32 PM
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metalhead1986
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Well, the build is complete, minus paint and one part that was missing from a Schumo kit that I have been having a heck of a time getting.

While I wait, I will work on painting the tools and the planning of the paint for the Tiger itself.

Thank you for your reply Marc780. Your reply leads me directly into my next question, which could turn into an electric vs. nitro or piston vs. direct impingment debate, but here goes nothing.

My Tiger is number 250251, which was produced in the Spring of 1943. I figured the correct base color was dunkelgelb, and that was going to be the base for my question, but Marc780 has brought doubt into my mind as to whether dunkelgelb is the correct color. He states

"(From 1943 to this period, sand yellow-"sand gelb" was the base color with olive drab and brown)."

Now my first question is about the correct base color. Should it be a dark yellow/sand yellow color, as I see so may painted, or should it be dunkelgelb, which seems to have a much more greenish tint to it from the bottles I have been colleting, and the ones I have been looking at picking up to try?

I guess my second question can wait until I decide which of the above two colors would be the correct base color. If it is dunkelgelb, then the real fun can begin.

Thanks again,

Steve
Old 08-12-2014, 12:32 PM
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Easiest way to paint tools and have them look freakin awesome is to pull them off the tank and paint them with this
http://shop.immortalhobbies.com/AMMO...1012107112.htm

I first used it and thought when the Old wood paint was used it was white but when it dries it looks like old european ash just what the tool makers would have used. I pop a bit of dark pigment on it to give a used look and it is perfect.
Here is a review and a bit of an instructional video from youtube
Old 08-12-2014, 12:37 PM
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metalhead1986
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I have that Ammo of Mig set, and it will be the base of my tool painting, although, I am pretty sure I am going to use Humbrol Metalcote for the metal parts. What happens to the paint when you buff it is pretty amazing. I tried a swatch on a piece of styrene and think it will be even more realistic on the tools.

I like the wood colors in the Mig set. I just need to practice ways to make realistic grain.

Did you add a YouTube link? If so, I don't see it.
Old 08-12-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by metalhead1986


My Tiger is number 250251, which was produced in the Spring of 1943. I figured the correct base color was dunkelgelb, and that was going to be the base for my question, but Marc780 has brought doubt into my mind as to whether dunkelgelb is the correct color. He states

"(From 1943 to this period, sand yellow-"sand gelb" was the base color with olive drab and brown)."

Now my first question is about the correct base color. Should it be a dark yellow/sand yellow color, as I see so may painted, or should it be dunkelgelb, which seems to have a much more greenish tint to it from the bottles I have been colleting, and the ones I have been looking at picking up to try?
Steve

Steve, which theatre are you going to depict your Tiger and which Abteilung to know this means I can correctly answer your question which will either be Russia or Africa as you will build an early model Tiger, as for the hatch interiors they were always painted the same base coat as outside with a few exceptions for instance early Tigers painted dunkelgrau first then painted dunkelgeld would still have the hatch interiors painted dunkelgrau before you ask dunkelgelb has more shades that you can shake a stick at for as many reasons.
Viel spaß
Old 08-12-2014, 06:46 PM
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metalhead1986
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rivetcounter - according to the information I can find, Tiger 250251 was numbered A02 and was part of the 9th company, III Abteilung, Panzer-Grenadier Division Großdeutschland which fought in Russia on the eastern front.

Thank you for the advice on the hatch interiors. That confirms what previous posters have said. I will certainly paint them the same as the base color of the tank, when I find out what that is supposed to be.

Your last line hints at my second question, if my Tiger is supposed to be painted dunkelgelb. I know there are more possibilities when it comes to dunkelgelb color than I can even imagine. Nevertheless, getting information from those who have been there might help guide me to a color that is acceptable and that I like.

But, I am getting ahead of myself. I am looking forward to your answer as to what color my Tiger should be painted.

Thanks for the help,

Steve
Old 08-13-2014, 02:23 AM
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Steve,

First thing you need is “der Tiger im focus” http://www.tiif.de/index.php?sid=75a...73a5cb01dc42c2 this shows all known pictures and information on each Tiger, failing that you can do no better than the books Tigers in Combat vol 1,2 and 3 the latter is only available at the moment in German.

There is little I can tell you about A02. I have also not studied GD so will have to look through books to tell you anything.
A02 Tiger 250215 was built in the 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] week April 1943, so is in the area of change for being painted dunkelgelb this is where the only known pictures come in use both pictures are the same with one being larger and not showing the staff car to the side, this picture was taken towards the end of August 1943 first glance you would have thought that the Tiger was dunkelgrau owing to the amount of dirt that has accumilated but at this time this would not be possible as all Tigers were painted in the field dunkelgeld during the build-up for Operation Zittadel, there is a nice large picture in “Tiger I on the Eastern Front” page 131, showing the rear of A02 in this picture it confirms the Tiger was painted dunkelgelb as the hatch interiors are painted in this colour, you can also see that the Tiger has some sort of camouflage pattern added which is not dissimilar to the staff car to the side I would say that the camouflage is in olivegrun and not dunkelbrun.
Old 08-13-2014, 02:49 AM
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Hey, first post but I thought I could help.

There is no colour in the old RAL system called Sandgelb - it doesn't exist. After the order to paint Tigers in Dunkelgelb (of which there are 3 RAL variants) no Tiger (or pretty much anything else for that matter) would have left the factory painted in anything other than Dunkelgelb until the next order came in for factory applied 3 tone in Autumn 1944. Red-brown and green was also supplied but usually applied by the depot, crew or maintenance sections in line with the regiment/divisions requirements. Even then many just went into combat painted in the colour they arrived in.

Your Tiger 250251 - When it was made and what it was initially painted could be a moot point (although its likely it was painted in Dunkelgelb - its certain the first 3 tanks delivered to Großdeutschland 3rd regiment were grey though). This is because just prior to Kursk/Citadel, Großdeutschland Pz Regiment III crews painted all their tanks yellow anyway with green spots/lines.

As for the hatch, I have no idea but the rest of the tank internally would have been painted in an Ivory c
olour (RAL 1001).
Old 08-14-2014, 10:55 AM
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metalhead1986
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Thanks for all the information rivetcounter. I also have only been able to find the two pictures of A02 that you mention. One is even in the Jentz book, two pages before the line drawings of the tank.

I am not sure how you can determine that the tank is painted in dunkelgelb. It certainly is not gray, but if the information mondo provides is correct, it could be a shade of yellow. What do you think about this?



Thanks for the information mondo, although you certainly confused things.


If it turns out to be dunkelgelb, what is a good one to use? The three I have called dunkelgelb all have a very green tint to them, and the Ammo of Mig one I was looking at also seemed to have a very green tint, almost to the point where I would be hard pressed to call any of them dark yellow. I also have Vallejo Middlestone and Green Ochre. The Green Ochre is the least green of them all (funny), and the Middlestone is very similar to the various dunkelgelbs I have.

I knew this would be the hardest part after I read through a bunch of threads on scale modeling forums.

Old 08-14-2014, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by metalhead1986

I am not sure how you can determine that the tank is painted in dunkelgelb. It certainly is not gray, but if the information mondo provides is correct, it could be a shade of yellow. What do you think about this?

If it turns out to be dunkelgelb, what is a good one to use? The three I have called dunkelgelb all have a very green tint to them, and the Ammo of Mig one I was looking at also seemed to have a very green tint, almost to the point where I would be hard pressed to call any of them dark yellow. I also have Vallejo Middlestone and Green Ochre. The Green Ochre is the least green of them all (funny), and the Middlestone is very similar to the various dunkelgelbs I have.

I knew this would be the hardest part after I read through a bunch of threads on scale modeling forums.

Theres a certain amount of guess work and a certain amount of reference. Thankfully the Germans were meticulous record keepers and guys like Jentz and Doyle spent allot of time collating them.

Its almost certain that if they were yellow (and not grey), they'd be dunkelgelb. Some Tigers which made it to 505abt were painted in 8020 and 7027 but that was a single batch intended originally for Africa. I think they grey area - pardon the pun - is what colour it left the factory in: 7021 Dunkelgrau or 7028 Dunkelgelb. Where there is complete certainty is if you wanted to paint A02 just prior to, or at Kursk. Because the unit order to repaint all tanks yellow and green was given then.

Some of the paints available are very green. I have the Vallejo one and used it on a HL Tiger and it looks way to green. The Mig AMMO do all three versions of Dunkelgelb but I think they're a little on the light side, because they're usually put on 1:35 models, can't say I've tried them. I always end up going back to Tamiya XF-60 because it looks good and airbrushes nicely.

To be honest, with all of this, go with your gut instinct. If it looks right, go with that.

Last edited by mondo; 08-14-2014 at 01:30 PM.
Old 08-14-2014, 02:24 PM
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Steve, all tanks including Tiger were painted in Dunkelgrau RAL7021 this included the inside of the hatches for Driver, Radio operator, Commander and Loader with the exception on Tiger of the escape hatch which like the rest of the interior was painter Elfenbein RAL1001.
Tigers sent to Tunisia and some units sent to Southern Russia were painted “Tropen” this was a two tome camouflage schema which was two thirds Braun RAL8020 and one third Grau RAL7027, Tigers issued to Großdeutschland, SS-LAH, SS-DR and SS-T were painted in “Tropen”
Starting February 1943 Tigers were painted completely in Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 and in the field camouflage was added using Deckpasten in Olivegrun RAL6003 and Rotbraun RAL8017 depending on theatre and unit depended on weather one shade was added or both in some units there was a combination of some tanks with just one shade of camouflage and others with two shades added.

Your Tiger left the factory in April 1943 and as Dunkelgelb RAL7028 had been introduced which superseded Tropen then A02 must have always been painted Dunkelgelb RAL7028, now examining the picture on page 118 of “Germanys Tiger Tanks D.W. to Tiger I (there are 4 books in the Tiger series from Jentz plus the Panzertracts books) it clearly shows the open loaders hatch and commanders hatch which are both painted in a light colour that cannot be Elfenbein RAL1001 as this was not used on the hatch interiours so must be Dunkelgelb RAL7028 the picture of A02 was taken at the end of August after the battle of Kursk which was in July 1943, were all tanks were painted in the fields with a base coat of RAL7028 and depending on unit RAL6003 and/or added as camouflage, to further back up my claim that A02 was Painted in RAL7028 on Page 111 there is a picture of 250234 leaving the Henschel factory painted in RAL7028.

Ever since WWII people have argued what is the correct shade of Dunkelgelb RAL7028, according to Thomas L Jentz Dunkelgelb RAL7028 nach muster only came in one shade however paint consistency even today is not perfect from batch to batch and factory to factory there would have been inconsistency’s with the shade add to this war shortages and you already have dozens of slightly different shades then depending on what it was thinned with this will add a slight change you can bet any money that when a tank is painted in the field it’s not meticulously cleaned first and is probably painted over dust and mud which will again alter the shade, as for which paint shade is best for your model well this will open a can of worms with more than a few, personally I would go with whatever you feel looks right I have used a number of different shades and been happy with them all my personal favourite and this is just me is 1:1 ratio of Tamiya XF59 and XF60 on their own XF59 is a bit too green and XF60 a bit to brown mixing them is in-between.
Here is a link to my last Tiger build 134 there is also pictures of 211 which I painted before using different shade of Dunkelgelb.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/rc-t...r-i-build.html
Old 08-15-2014, 09:28 AM
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Thanks for the info mondo. I tend to agree about the Vallejo dunkelgelb. I have the whole model air set and a model color version. The primer and base coats I have are all really green in tint, too much so for my liking. The color I like the best is one of the colors that is supposed to be for highlighting in the big set I bought.

I will check out the XF-60 and variations, as I have read posts from many people that use it.

Steve
Old 08-15-2014, 09:48 AM
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metalhead1986
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rivetcounter

First of all, let me say that your 1/6 tiger build was amazing. You were able to add detail that I could only dream of on my Tiger. I also wish I had your scratch building skills. I was excited about my gun cleaning rods and track changing cable. Now I feel pretty inadequate.

The research you have done into all things Tiger I must be extensive, and I appreciate you sharing this knowledge with me. The variations of everything Tiger has me confused half the time with the little I have read. Being able to retain all these variations and changes is very impressive.

I know there are multiple books by Jentz and Doyle on the Tiger, and I am referencing “Germanys Tiger Tanks D.W. to Tiger I," but I stopped using the name of the book back in the research stage of this project. Maybe I should go back to using it, so there is no confusion.

One thing I have done quite a bit of reading on is dunkelgelb, which is why I asked my question the way I did . I know it could spark a heated debate, with no real winner. I was just looking for suggestions, as the Vallejo colors labeled at dunkelgelb that I have all look too green for me. The idea of mixing XF-59 and XF-60 in a 1:1 ratio is something I have seen elsewhere. I guess I will hit the LHS tomorrow and see if I can pick up a jar of each.

Your description of how you mix them and thin them with X-20A was a little confusing in the thread on the 1/6th Tiger. What I got was a 1:1 ratio of XF-59 and XF-60, then thinned at a ratio of two parts paint to one part thinner. Did I interpret this correctly? That is the ratio I used for paint to thinner on my Leo, so I guess it would make sense here, too.

Thanks again for all the advice and guidance you are giving me.

Steve

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