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  1. #26
    ausf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cleong View Post
    One of my Singapore club members accidentally built his Tamiya Leopard with tweaked suspension so his tank sat ass-down. We had trouble hitting him at normal ranges so the problem is real. It was accidental because he didn't know the Schumo suspension bolts he'd bought were adjustable and was asking me how to fix it afterward. The fact he spent hours looking at the problem showed his heart was in the right place. I'm still figuring out how to instill the same chivalrous spirit of fair play in everyone !
    It was explained to me once that some guys have altered their suspension so the front doesn't compress, thereby creating the same deal. You can't tell when it's on blocks, but once it's in the dirt, the apple is sufficiently angled to close the baffles.
    What, me worry?

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by ausf View Post
    I bet a simple timer of sorts could be put inline before the emitter plug to cut the fan or lag if it could cut the signal to a short interval. But then again, it's a matter of policing or getting everyone on board. People who would use it, probably don't need it.

    So yeah, I guess the fan, etc, isn't cheating, just part of a competitive game as opposed to a friendlier skirmish. Same way checking might not be appreciated in a pickup game, where it's needed in an organized effort.
    There is a Fan Ban out there, been around for several years, I have 3 of them.

    Originally made by Darkith, he may still make them by order at about $25 each.

    My test video showing how it prevents fan shots:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCLv...PV3m5WgOpPPecg
    Cheers
    Eric Scott
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  3. #28
    ausf's Avatar
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    That is one heck of a demonstration, thanks.

    I assumed the fan shot was done with the turret, but I guess that probably wouldn't work since it wouldn't be fast enough. From the looks of it, it'd be hard to not be noticed performing that shot.
    What, me worry?

  4. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by ausf View Post
    It was explained to me once that some guys have altered their suspension so the front doesn't compress, thereby creating the same deal. You can't tell when it's on blocks, but once it's in the dirt, the apple is sufficiently angled to close the baffles.
    At Danville we test the ability of the tanks to take hits. Any such tilted suspension alteration would be flagged and not allowed. So this is really not an issue there. M26 style suspensions can be cranked up some but all long as the apple takes hits it is not an issue.
    Join us at NEAD: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/queenspanzergroup/
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  5. #30
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    Yep, easy to police.

    I still remember using the Fan Ban at a Danville event to show how it works and the fan shooters were surprised they could not hit me even at 3 feet! Of course when they stopped fanning they hit me every time.

    That was fun! LOL
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  6. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by cleong View Post
    One of my Singapore club members accidentally built his Tamiya Leopard with tweaked suspension so his tank sat ass-down. We had trouble hitting him at normal ranges so the problem is real. It was accidental because he didn't know the Schumo suspension bolts he'd bought were adjustable and was asking me how to fix it afterward. The fact he spent hours looking at the problem showed his heart was in the right place. I'm still figuring out how to instill the same chivalrous spirit of fair play in everyone !
    There are only a very small minority that stoop to such dirty tactics. You have been to enough NEAD events and Danville too, to see that when the rules are explained for all to understand, there in more fun and less friction. Just be fair and reasonable gentleman. I am in your corner Leong. See you soon.

    Chivalry must be nurture, rewarded and cultivated.
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  7. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by ausf View Post
    That is one heck of a demonstration, thanks.

    I assumed the fan shot was done with the turret, but I guess that probably wouldn't work since it wouldn't be fast enough. From the looks of it, it'd be hard to not be noticed performing that shot.
    It is a very unrealistic event in which the turret stays pointed off to the side at 45 degrees and the whole tank jumps up and swings 90 plus degrees and then back....very bizarre to see. It is easily seen but....somewhere in there the strobe may or may not have been fired....LOL.
    Join us at NEAD: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/queenspanzergroup/
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  8. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by mustclime View Post
    I hate fan shots...last time I went to danville, a lot of people were doing it and that is the last ime I went to danville. I did not make a fuss, But I have no interest in going there ever again( not that it matters anymore). I like the moved prisums in the apples because it stops fan shots and would rather fight that way....jmo
    Scott,
    your not alone by a long shot. Most people at the Danville events like the TFA style. I myself like it too for fixed structured tanks, I don't like how it makes every tank on the
    battlefield a Jagdtiger to within 10' and what worries me the most is promoting people to take apart stock equipment to manipulate it. We haven't seen it yet, but this could
    snowball into people taking other units apart and modding them to gain an unknow or unseen advantage, at the least changing the inner workings of the
    apple.
    AAF # 111284-25
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  9. #34
    Strato50's Avatar
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    Clark momentum & the turnigy chip make it difficult and discourage fan shots. As does battling on thick grass!

    That fanban chip is really cool, does it work equally well with other battle systems??

    Honestly here in Can-Am we haven't had many issues with tankers bending the rules... the worst ongoing issue is physical crap ontop of turrets obscuring the sensor but it's being worked on.

    TFA style apples is a non issues as less than 50% of us actually use Tamiya apples, same for 45 degree defense in the rest of the cases. It's very adhoc.
    CAN-AM Rc Tank Club - Tiger I * Panzer IV * Panzer III * Chi Nu Kai * Stug III-G **** KV-2 * Pershing * T-34/85 * M4A1 Sherman * SU-76i

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  10. #35
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    With a Heng Long superspin you would have the ultimate fan. Probably would get 360 Degrees in the time the IR sensor is energized.

  11. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by YHR View Post
    With a Heng Long superspin you would have the ultimate fan. Probably would get 360 Degrees in the time the IR sensor is energized.
    Or this:



    The firing is activated by toggling off the Notek, which means as long as the Notek is off, the IR is firing. I'm not sure how long the Mako board sends the code, by I guess it's possibly a good amount of time. Never tested past just single shots.
    What, me worry?

  12. #37
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    Not to drag it out any more than it has been, but I thought I would put my two cents in about gameplay.
    I haven't been to a Danville battle in a while, but when I did go regularly, even when the fan shots were discontinued by everyone agreement, they would still happen by accident. The scenario is pretty common, you are backing away from an opponent and turning at the same time and you fire as you back around the corner of a hill or obstacle (fan shot) if there happen to be multiple tanks nearby you may land a hit on both. I have noticed it happen several times over several events in my videos while I was editing them.

    I have a couple of ideas about adjusting the gameplay, these are just food for thought.

    From what I have read in my research, most if not all tanks were not accurate when firing on the move, so the crews stopped the tank when firing to gain accuracy. The only real exception I have read about was the Russians would fire on the move at the German tanks just to scare them and sometime they got lucky and would score a hit, but that was the exception rather than the rule. My thought was a relay type circuit that kept the tank from firing on the move might make the battle somewhat more realistic and add a new dynamic to the battles, it would be easy to implement if either motor was energized the circuit to fire would be interrupted, once stopped firing could commence.

    Additionally a Turnigy chip would reduce the jackrabbit starts and save on gearboxes eating themselves, one side note, I use the Turnigy chips and you would not want to reduce the fast braking ,the tank normally has (by adding inertia) which the Turnigy chip will do if setup that way. Inertia is OK if you are just casually driving around but in a battle I guarantee in the heat of battle you will run into things or worse other tanks, I can't tell you how many trees and rocks my Panther has tried to climb at Danville by me not stopping in time.

    One other suggestion might be to limit the tanks to their off road speed rather than their road speed (this may cause problems depending on how it would be achieved on individual tanks).
    I thought of one other thing that would add a new dimension to the battles, don't replace the batteries until the tank stops, the Tamiya tanks behave very much like a tank that runs out of gas when the battery runs low, if you have no hits you may be able to drive slowly for a while but soon you will be immobilized, however you will still be able to rotate your turret and fire your gun for a while. With all the different tanks and gearing and batteries used this would happen very much at random, so it would add a surprise element to the gameplay.
    I just thought I would throw these ideas out there, most are easy to implement with little or no cost and exceptions could be made for new or visiting tankers whose tanks may not conform.
    Steve

  13. #38
    kizwan's Avatar
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    Sorry, new guy here. What is "fan shots"? and what is "apples"?
    HSP XSTR 1/10 4WD EP Off-road Buggy, 1/10 Brontosaurus EP Monster Truck
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  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by kizwan View Post
    Sorry, new guy here. What is "fan shots"? and what is "apples"?
    Hey Kizwan, welcome to the fun :P Apples are a term used for the sensors ontop of the battle tank that detects the cannon shots from other tanks & tells the electronics that a hit has been received.

    A "fan shot" is when a tank fires it's cannon while turning quickly. Because the IR signal is on for about 1 second, it's possible to hit several tanks at once... it's considered unfair and unsportsmanlike.
    CAN-AM Rc Tank Club - Tiger I * Panzer IV * Panzer III * Chi Nu Kai * Stug III-G **** KV-2 * Pershing * T-34/85 * M4A1 Sherman * SU-76i

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  15. #40

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    I can't deal with driving my tank with the barrel at the 45 degree and having to turn the hull in order to fire forward. I'm a TFA fan and will never go back. Driving around with the barrel pointed forward with TFA makes much more sense.
    Tamiya dropped the ball when they designed the pyramid configuration in the apple but at least they molded notches in the pyramid to allow for TFA conversion. It's not like Japan is known for a long history of tank warfare. Done beating this very dead horse.

  16. #41

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    I can see the logic of both sides of the coin and recognize that in many cases, clubs are trying to split hairs. But I contend that it is necessary to split hairs in order to maintain a semblance of realism while still making it fun and easy to pick up.

    Having thought about it at length with regard to both extremes here is my (lengthy) two cents about it:

    Laser-tag style:

    Basically the tanks are just IR emitters/receivers that move around a given battlefield that happen to look like tanks.

    - Anything that the system can accommodate is allowed (sweep shots, lag shots, drive-by shots). Sudden bursts of acceleration, superspins, it is all kosher. In fact if you look at the sanctioned Tamiya tank battles during their annual RC championships in Japan, that's largely how they play it.
    - Essentially this is Tamiya-rules and any third party brand that participates in this sort of battle has to mirror Tamiya-specifications exactly. It is much easier to inspect and pass a Tamiya tank (simply check everything is to factory specification) than it is to benchmark and test a third-party tank for every single battle attribute in order to "pass" it for battle.

    Realism style:

    All of a tank's movements are carefully adjusted to meet historical figures.

    - There should be no firing on the move; based on the assumption that no tank in WW2 had the capability of firing accurately while on the move. This would eliminate all drive-by shooting or sweep-shots. Ideally, in very close range, firing on the move should be allowed, since it is hard to miss in knife-fight ranges.
    - Lag shooting is prohibited; tankers that fire their guns without an obvious target, while being fired upon, should be called out.
    - IR emitters should be narrowed down to encourage more realistic aiming. Tanks with known superior armor and weaponry should have their IR characteristics tuned as such (by employing IR emitter potentiometers, two-shot kill codes, apple blocking tape, turned apple mirrors, or 360 cones to replace stock prisms, etc.).
    - Tank platforms that were known to have greater production numbers, such as Shermans and T34s should be given corresponding respawns to simulate numerical superiority.
    - Tanks would be issued dice to roll every five minutes to determine if they should have a mechanical breakdown and for how long (different tanks would have difference chances to break down to account for inherent design weaknesses and field serviceability). For example, with a six-sided dice, a Tiger I would break down if it rolls any even number, and stay immobile for five minutes if it rolls another even number, otherwise it is repaired in one minute if it rolls an odd number. In contrast, a Sherman would break down only if it rolls a six, and stay broken down for five minutes if it rolls another six, otherwise it stays broken down for one minute and resumes mobility.
    - In order to simulate accurately fog of war, tanks should be driven FPV and no one should have a bird's eye view of the field.

    This realism style approach is exceedingly complex, because it was so complex in reality. It takes a lot of work to tech every tank that is to be used for realism-style battles, yet laser-tag battles are too cartoonish and have similarly turned people off from tanking all together. Technology does not yet allow us to fight truly realistically and much resistance has been encountered trying to implement such ideas.

    In fact, the formula that is currently working is similar to playing real-time chess. Chess pieces, are just representations of their real life counterpart without that factual accuracy. They are given movement advantages and disadvantages for the sake of gameplay accuracy. Our RC tanks are similar and it is this similar gameplay balance that we should be aiming to achieve, even as opinions differ as to what this abstract balanced gameplay should be.
    Chung-Leong

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  17. #42
    Strato50's Avatar
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    I guess I'm the newbie now.. what's a lag shot and what's the purpose?

    You can get a cone prism for Tamiya sensors?? That would solve SO many bickering issues!!

    *edit*

    Look what I found :P

    Tamiya TBU modifications
    Last edited by Strato50; 08-22-2014 at 09:57 AM.
    CAN-AM Rc Tank Club - Tiger I * Panzer IV * Panzer III * Chi Nu Kai * Stug III-G **** KV-2 * Pershing * T-34/85 * M4A1 Sherman * SU-76i

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  18. #43

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    [QUOTE=Strato50;11865515
    A "fan shot" is when a tank fires it's cannon while turning quickly. Because the IR signal is on for about 1 second, it's possible to hit several tanks at once... it's considered unfair and unsportsmanlike.[/QUOTE]
    No offense intended to those that don't battle a lot, but the above is your opinion, not reality. Many people are fine with the way the tamiya system work as it is. This is a mis-leading statement. There have been posters on this thread that are complaining about shots and playing styles they don't even know about. This whole argument has been beat to death many times over, but I only respond to it in this thread, because I'm offended by the way the standard tamiya battle style is being represented. Fan shots and fake fans, and lags are NOT cheating! For the record, I prefer TFA, because that solves a lot of the issues, if it's standard apple play, it has to allow for all the system can do.

  19. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strato50 View Post
    I guess I'm the newbie now.. what's a lag shot and what's the purpose?

    You can get a cone prism for Tamiya sensors?? That would solve SO many bickering issues!!

    *edit*

    Look what I found :P

    Tamiya TBU modifications
    Essentially a "lag" shot entails you getting your foe to fire first then you fire during his IR pulse. While your firing your invincible of course and since you fired a split second after him your IR will light him up since his pulse has ended before yours. I find this shot even more unrealistic and hate that it penalizes initiative. A couple people have mentioned they came up with cone prism's, but I haven't seen any make their way to Danville yet with exception to a prototype from YHR I believe, and like any other field leveling idea the problem is always implementation on all tanks.
    Last edited by TheBennyB; 08-22-2014 at 10:28 AM.
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  20. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Strato50 View Post
    I guess I'm the newbie now.. what's a lag shot and what's the purpose?
    As I understand it, a lag shot exploits a characteristic of the Tamiya system that turns off its TBU circuitry when the tank fires in order to prevent it from hitting itself due to a stray reflection. This enables a tank to protect itself from an opponent's shot by firing when the enemy fires upon him. Its fine if they were in a stand off with each other, but is rather unrealistic if the lag shot firer isn't even aimed at another tank in the first place.

    Edit: Brett may have the better explanation - mine was told to me secondhand and may not be entirely correct.
    Last edited by cleong; 08-22-2014 at 10:29 AM.
    Chung-Leong

    Current tanks:
    Tamiya Tiger I, Pershing, Panther G, Leopard 2A6 and KV-1

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    AAF Tank Museum member #131329-25

  21. #46

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    We are talking about grown men playing with toy tanks in the world largest indoor sandbox, right?

    The dead horse is the complaining.
    Everyone has their opinion and probably will never agree on Stock vs TFA.
    Remember, Doug at the AAF has been open to different clubs hosting events and using their rules.
    So, if your club has not already done so and you want to play a particular style, then reach out to Doug now for next year.
    (if there is a next year)
    Just like Shawn and Jeff did in June.
    You want to play a certain way?
    Step up to the mike.

    And let's do the gentlemanly thing and not publicly trash/complain about an event being promoted and run by another club.
    Especially one you don't plan attending anyway.
    Name calling and accusations of cheating is not helping anyone.

    The system is imperfect, and self policing is a challenge that often creates unnecessary stress when you have a mix of opinions, styles, and abilities.
    Let's collectively hope that a manufacturer will produce a universal system that does the following:
    realistic armour thickness/vulnerabilities
    realistic gun caliber/penetetration
    realistic speeds
    better sound
    cannot spin and fire
    fits all manufacturers
    readily available at your LHS
    costs under $50 bucks.
    Lets collectively hope in one hand and crap in the other and see which fills first.

    If you can't/won't make it to Danville, then find a group of guys in your region who want to play the same way.
    What's that you say?
    There are no guys in your region that play with toy tanks?
    This forum creates an illusion that the hobby is bigger than it actually is.
    The hobby is what we collectively make it at battle-day events.

    I have gone to every battlefield work day that I can.
    I attend every event that I can, regardless of rules.
    I help out at all the events, even when it is not my club hosting.
    WHY?
    Because I feel privileged to live so close to the worlds largest indoor sandbox, which makes me feel like a kid again.

  22. #47
    YHR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NCKT View Post
    No offense intended to those that don't battle a lot, but the above is your opinion, not reality. Many people are fine with the way the tamiya system work as it is. This is a mis-leading statement. There have been posters on this thread that are complaining about shots and playing styles they don't even know about. This whole argument has been beat to death many times over, but I only respond to it in this thread, because I'm offended by the way the standard tamiya battle style is being represented. Fan shots and fake fans, and lags are NOT cheating! For the record, I prefer TFA, because that solves a lot of the issues, if it's standard apple play, it has to allow for all the system can do.
    I fully understand your position. There are fans of the Tamiya system and there are those that are not. The ones that are not may be at a critical mass where some changes will happen to better reflect a battle simulation vs Laser tag.

    I defend the Tamiya system and believe it should be the lowest common denominator between all systems to allow the interaction of all. If there are enough consumers who want to move ahead with a more realistic approach I hope they can default to the Tamiya system as well so everyone is included. Without this there will be a split in this already small group.

    I think the clubs are dealing with this on their own and this is really a non issue. More of a debating point. I think it is good for opinions to be expressed. It is obvious that even among Tamiya users there are strong opinions on all things related to the fan shot

  23. #48

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    Quote Originally Posted by ian.robbins View Post
    Hi Guys. I have a question that I'd like to get a few opinions on. I have a panther /Taigen tank as well as two Heng long leopards. One is rtr and the other I'm putting together as I modify it. Just wondering what type of radio would be good for it. Having looked at immortal hobbies I know they sell two. A turnigy 9x and a 6 channel which comes with a clark tk-22 board ( the turnigy doesn't but can be set up) what type of radio's are you guys using and which boards:clark tk22 vs D something(the name escapes me). Got slip rings which I'll modify the turrets this weekend. all 3 tanks shoot bb's for now but the modded one I will eventually add a servo recoil and flash and maybe in the future IR..I welcome all your opinions..Ian
    You should probably post this as a separate thread. No offense intended and I don't want to rag on ya, I just really think you'll get better results. The guy that started this one did so because this subject came up in a different thread and he wanted to be polite and not change the subject. I'm new here, too, so don't take it wrong. I really am trying to be helpful.

  24. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by MAUS45 View Post
    Ditto on the Fan shot hating. Not realistic and creeps the newbies out of the hobby. FVP may stop this kind of cheap shot?
    I'm one of those newbies. Been to one battle and still have tons to learn, but I have been into static for over 45 years. You guys are raising some real concerns for me. I heard the hobby referred to as a "game". Is that how most of you look at it? Like just a different form of pacman? And what's this in the videos where everyone is driving around with the turret cocked to one side and they rarely move it? That looks pretty bad to these old eyes. I was hoping for realistic scale equipment operated in a realistic manner in a competition (I know differentiating between "competition" and "game" is splitting hairs, but I think most of you will understand) that requires tactics, strategy and teamwork to achieve victory. Am I in the wrong hobby? Should I just stick with airsoft and the taigen IR system? Tamiya stuff can get expensive, am I just setting myself up for disappointment when I finally make it to Danville?
    Last edited by maxu52; 08-22-2014 at 06:07 PM.

  25. #50
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    I think there is a will among some tankers to change the game to more what you are after. I would suggest you be part of the movement to a more realistic game. If that is what you are after.

    Momentum, rotating the Tamiya prism, and a fan ban is all that is required to drastically change the game.to something more realistic. Cost to do this is less then $20 and then you need to find like minded tankers..
    Last edited by YHR; 08-22-2014 at 08:07 PM.


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