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IR battling, fan shots, tilted suspensions, etc...

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Old 08-21-2014, 04:54 AM
  #1
ausf
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Default IR battling, fan shots, tilted suspensions, etc...

The Danville thread got me thinking, so I want to ask about this.

I came to this hobby from the static world, so discovery of IR battling was just icing on the cake. I bought two apples a while back on a whim after having the Tamiya Tiger I and M4 for years. We actually had to grind down the pointed grips of the Attack Tx sticks because we were cutting our fingers, the first battles were so intense. My sons and I had true white knuckle events in makeshift forests and town we built in the backyard.

At no point did we think of ways to cheat to gain advantage and I actually went as far as making it harder to hit by focusing the IR beam as much as possible (tank width @ 30 feet) and as easy as possible to get hit (removed hatches).

It's all about having fun and a challenge and truthfully, I could care less who wins, the best battles are when everyone's down to their last hit, barely crawling, just trying to run for cover or swing around in desperation.

When I read about fan shots, altering suspensions to angle the apple, etc. I kind of shake my head, but hearing about false firing then fanning is a whole new level. Is there money bet on these battles or something? For the love of Pete, it's steering a RC tank around a battlefield, the fun is in the skill, strategy and tactics it takes to stay alive, not how I can win at any cost.

I've only battled against family and friends and NEAD and it's always been fun, I'm not sure I'd enjoy it if it was a game on one-upmanship.

I doubt anyone would admit to cheating, but for you serious battlers out there, is it or was it a real problem?


If it is/was, I can't think of anything that would kill the hobby's momentum faster than making events a nasty, cheat-filled experience for newcomers.

Last edited by ausf; 08-21-2014 at 05:16 AM.
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Old 08-21-2014, 05:35 AM
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DAK shares your mentality. We battle for fun and our rules are fundamental. Aside from the three foot rule, apples placed correctly and emitters sleeved, we only stop the action to repair the obvious damage and field elements. Our only exotic rule is IFA for assault guns but we encourage new equipment and custom efforts as long as they die correctly. Tamiya electronics seem to naturally persist as they survive the heat but DBC, Clark, Mako all have been used.
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Old 08-21-2014, 05:41 AM
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I sure hope no one is stooping to this kind of thing. From an electrical point of view a person with the right skills would have no problem building a tank that that would have hidden advantages over others that would be undetectable from any judging.

My opinion is if anyone is caught, there should be one warning to ensure they understand the consequences, and then if it happens again, you are not welcome.at club events.
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Old 08-21-2014, 06:34 AM
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Dan, you wouldn't even need electrical experience, just carrying a universal remote that is set to the Tamiya code. I could carry my Samsung TV remote and hit the mute button if I was ever cornered, hitting or knocking out any tank that threatened me. Of course if it came to that, I would just stay home and watch the TV instead.

I see no difference between using a universal remote and a fan shot.

We build structures to battle around that have different sizes holes, like blown out storefronts, that allow different tanks to stick the gun out while hiding the apple. But those all have an open side too, so if you maneuver yourself into that spot, you're also likely to be stuck and outflanked, pinned in a death trap.

Because of Alphabetizing, Archer and me were usually placed next eachother at shows. When leaving for the day, Woody would just throw a sheet over his displays to keep them clean. Here I was packing crap up to haul back to the hotel room and asked if he thought it was safe to leave it. What he said stuck with me, "Whoever would steal a bunch of transfers obviously needs them more than me."

So my philosophy is anyone who needs to cheat to win obviously needs it more than I do. But don't expect me to play with them much after that.
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:03 AM
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Ditto on the Fan shot hating. Not realistic and creeps the newbies out of the hobby. FVP may stop this kind of cheap shot?
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Old 08-21-2014, 07:42 AM
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I'd never consider "fake fan shots" cheating. I think Bret addressed this well in the other thread, but if the system allows it, it should be legal, because you can't police it. Also, it's a game, not a simulation.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NCKT View Post
I'd never consider "fake fan shots" cheating. I think Bret addressed this well in the other thread, but if the system allows it, it should be legal, because you can't police it. Also, it's a game, not a simulation.
Thanks for your honesty and opinion.

In my honest opinion, I wouldn't want to battle with you, but that's fine, to each his own.

Seriously, in my opinion, the talk of 'working within the system' and 'policing' is the fastest way to keep people from getting involved. To me, hobbies are for relaxation, not to knock heads. Sports are for that, if I want to work out some agression, I'll put on the skates, not meet some guys in a park to drive tanks around.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:12 AM
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oh boy here we go again. This is the same conversation every year or so, right there with tamiya vs the world.
For me these shots are not cheap or cheating and we should watch what we're labeling. With the tamiya system "fan" or "lag" shot
nothing is being altered from the stock equipment it's just tactics using the full second IR pulse. If you had the option of going into
battle with a 15 round magazine or a 30, everyone would take the 15? Maybe not the best comparison but we're just using what
is given to us by tamiya to its full advantage. One of the funniest quotes given by a tanker to another tanker who was complaining
of being taken out by a lag shot was "Talk to Mr. Tamiya." Also, nothing about these tank battles are historic or realistic looking to begin with
so that's a non issue with me. I have fun whether we're running TFA, stock apples, no fins, whatever else people want to do.
For sure if someone has altered equipment to gain advantage the person should be made aware of it and told it's not appreciated.
I completely agree that we don't want to scare away new people with such tactics, but we also don't want to lose Vet's that have
built up this hobby over 15 years because of simplifying game play. Our club has come up with different scenario's that
cut down on the "fan" and "lag" shot just due to the number of tanks in close proximity and the level of stress put on the
operator in which they are just to busy to worry about pulling such shots and tactics off. For the most part all these
discussion are mute unless your at a big event such as Danville were your trying to police 40 guys and what they're doing
on the battlefield. Most club's or backyard battler's will be able to run what rules best suits them and their battlefield.
Until every tanker is using the same battle system, apple, and IR bulb we'll have this discussion I suppose.
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Old 08-21-2014, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausf View Post
Thanks for your honesty and opinion.

In my honest opinion, I wouldn't want to battle with you, but that's fine, to each his own.

Seriously, in my opinion, the talk of 'working within the system' and 'policing' is the fastest way to keep people from getting involved. To me, hobbies are for relaxation, not to knock heads. Sports are for that, if I want to work out some agression, I'll put on the skates, not meet some guys in a park to drive tanks around.
Ausf, your right on. All hobbies should be fun and relaxing but with 40 people from different places in the world, clubs, ideas, etc. you have to have some guidelines and enforcement
or everyone is standing around the workbenches arguing on how the weekend should be run, not on the battlefield getting their tanks dirty. Rememeber
this is all just electronic chat, anyone who's been to Danville will tell you it's never taken that serious, and all ages have a complete blast.

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Old 08-21-2014, 08:41 AM
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I hear ya Brett and didn't mean to tarnish the perception of Danville, etc. I started this thread in response to hearing about fake fan shots that Bob had mentioned and didn't want to hijack that thread.

Like I said, to each his own. I'm more in this for the modeling aspect and pure fun. I didn't know some of these tactics existed, I'm not going to learn/use them to become competitive. I don't care if I get knocked out 2 minutes into it, I still get to go home at the end of the day.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausf View Post
I hear ya Brett and didn't mean to tarnish the perception of Danville, etc. I started this thread in response to hearing about fake fan shots that Bob had mentioned and didn't want to hijack that thread.

Like I said, to each his own. I'm more in this for the modeling aspect and pure fun. I didn't know some of these tactics existed, I'm not going to learn/use them to become competitive. I don't care if I get knocked out 2 minutes into it, I still get to go home at the end of the day.
Yup, that's what its all about. All of these "shots" came from the old days of heavy competition battles to where there were even gift cards to the AAF PX at stake.
They just carried over into today's more leisure battles and for some tankers like myself is even muscle memory on the sticks/fire button. I will say this though on the
"don't care if I win" statements. Until you go an entire weekend not killing a tank and getting wiped out early in almost every battle, it did feel good to learn these tactics
and catch up to the competition to get some kills under the belt as I had to do in 2005 at Danville. These are different times though. Also Jeff, I appreciate you
starting a new thread on this and not distracting from the Museum event thread.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:30 AM
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I don't think the Fan shot or the Fake fan is cheating. It is not my cup of tea, nor are tanks running around like jack rabbits, and this is a big fundemental divide in the hobby. If you are going to tolerate the quick acceleration, you might as well tolerate the whole shebang that is inherent to the system. Splitting hairs otherwise

My choice would be slow tanks with momentum, no fan, and better ballistic modeling. With Clark and others exploring different things there is a chance that this divide will get bigger and harder to cross between systems. Not good for the hobby but maybe a fact that will soon play out. You will have Lazar tag systems and Battle simulation systems, and never the two shall meet.


There maybe a critical mass of non Tamiya systems, and if these system differ substantially then there may be a split. I think the Can Am club( failry big and established) has Clark users as their majority, so they are not too concerned about Tamiya. So this is evidence that things are changing.

As far as I know all the systems are still capable of the Fan shot, and of course if you use the fan then the fake fan is a tactic in my opinion.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:50 AM
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Yup, the turnigy chip will stop the fan shot but not the lag or what's even more unrealistic the hull up or down defense. I mean come on, exposing your deck or belly to stop a shot, atleast
the fan shot I can wildly imagine a ricochet or tank firing on the move.
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Old 08-21-2014, 09:55 AM
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I hate fan shots...last time I went to danville, a lot of people were doing it and that is the last I went to danville. I did not make a fuss, But I have no interest in going there ever again( not that it matters anymore). I like the moved prisums in the apples because it stops fan shots and would rather fight that way....jmo

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Old 08-21-2014, 10:10 AM
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We have four active tankers and mostly go to VA hospitals or military events to show our tanks. We just
help out. You can control speed with throttle but the chip would help. We play to the spectatos.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:26 AM
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I bet a simple timer of sorts could be put inline before the emitter plug to cut the fan or lag if it could cut the signal to a short interval. But then again, it's a matter of policing or getting everyone on board. People who would use it, probably don't need it.

So yeah, I guess the fan, etc, isn't cheating, just part of a competitive game as opposed to a friendlier skirmish. Same way checking might not be appreciated in a pickup game, where it's needed in an organized effort.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausf View Post
I bet a simple timer of sorts could be put inline before the emitter plug to cut the fan or lag if it could cut the signal to a short interval. But then again, it's a matter of policing or getting everyone on board. People who would use it, probably don't need it.

So yeah, I guess the fan, etc, isn't cheating, just part of a competitive game as opposed to a friendlier skirmish. Same way checking might not be appreciated in a pickup game, where it's needed in an organized effort.
I like your thinking....hockey fan/player myself.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MAUS45 View Post
Ditto on the Fan shot hating. Not realistic and creeps the newbies out of the hobby.
I think people really need to think about this. Many people who I introduce to RC tanks like the idea because they love tanks and history, but when they discover unrealistic tactics like this is becomes a major turn off for most of them, and they just decided they would rather stick to airsoft vehicles.
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:38 AM
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Hi Guys. I have a question that I'd like to get a few opinions on. I have a panther /Taigen tank as well as two Heng long leopards. One is rtr and the other I'm putting together as I modify it. Just wondering what type of radio would be good for it. Having looked at immortal hobbies I know they sell two. A turnigy 9x and a 6 channel which comes with a clark tk-22 board ( the turnigy doesn't but can be set up) what type of radio's are you guys using and which boards:clark tk22 vs D something(the name escapes me). Got slip rings which I'll modify the turrets this weekend. all 3 tanks shoot bb's for now but the modded one I will eventually add a servo recoil and flash and maybe in the future IR..I welcome all your opinions..Ian
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ausf View Post
So my philosophy is anyone who needs to cheat to win obviously needs it more than I do. But don't expect me to play with them much after that.
Amen to that!
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Old 08-21-2014, 10:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBennyB View Post
I like your thinking....hockey fan/player myself.
Yeah but you're probably a Broad Street Bully fan.

I still have nightmares of Bobby Clarke's sinister grin (Kate Smith's too).

And no, I don't like the stRangers.
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:01 AM
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One of my Singapore club members accidentally built his Tamiya Leopard with tweaked suspension so his tank sat ass-down. We had trouble hitting him at normal ranges so the problem is real. It was accidental because he didn't know the Schumo suspension bolts he'd bought were adjustable and was asking me how to fix it afterward. The fact he spent hours looking at the problem showed his heart was in the right place. I'm still figuring out how to instill the same chivalrous spirit of fair play in everyone !
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:07 AM
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Quote:
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Yeah but you're probably a Broad Street Bully fan.

I still have nightmares of Bobby Clarke's sinister grin (Kate Smith's too).

And no, I don't like the stRangers.
Nope, me and David Putty go to the same games!!
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
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Nope, me and David Putty go to the same games!!
Oh Gawd. You don't paint your face and scare priests do you?
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Old 08-21-2014, 11:13 AM
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99.9% of the time I truly think everyone is on the up and up and wants to play fair. I've come across painted apples, Uber IR bulbs, removed mirrors, multiple IR bulbs, etc and for the most
part people were just unaware of any standard or they were innocent mistakes. It's actually pretty difficult to cheat these days without being called out by other tankers and
for the most part don't believe many in this hobby are really looking to "cheat to win."
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