Max-U52

Hey guys, check out this item, and if you have time check the whole store for this seller (hongkong2047). I'm seeing a lot of OOP stuff at what seems to me like reasonable prices, but I'd greatly appreciate the opinions of my fellow tankers on this one.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Resin-Model-...item460dd7d0dc

Rex Ross

That piece looks like it would be good for converting a vehicle into a gun carrier of some sort. I think the price is right. Years ago I got a number of Kirin plastic and resin items and they all were of good quality. I may buy one of those myself.
rex

ausf

Recaster.

I used to do shows with Mrosko. that's not him selling this.

I'm suprised it hasn't been shut down yet, but I'll look through the list of products and pass along to the guys who are being stolen from so they can file a complaint.

In my opinion, if you buy from this guy you are just as big a part of the problem as he is. Plain and simple, he's a thief and if you buy from him you're not only getting a substandard pile of crap, but you're supporting it.

This is also why there isn't more aftermarket stuff available. You think Chris wants to expand his product line just to feed it to guys like this? There's no way of going after guys like this, except to ask eBay to take it down and then it's just a case of whack a mole.

Buy from a recaster: you can save a few bucks, get crap and lose your dignity all in one transaction. Might as well kick a puppy too while you're at it.

ausf

If you look at the item description. the scumbag even says it doesn't include a box.

That's your best hint, even if you want to see past the crime.

Max-U52

Jeff, if you are absolutely sure that these are copies and not just old stock then I won't buy anything at this store, but I hope you'll make sure that's the case. Not that I doubt you, you're one of the main people I was hoping would see this because I really do value your opinion in these matters, I just want to be sure that you're sure.

This is why I bring things like this to the forum. I've learned that things aren't always what they seem to be in this hobby, so I rely heavily on the knowledge and experience of all our members, so thanks for posting.

Max-U52

And can you tell us more about Mrosko? If I could get stuff like this from the original artist that would be very interesting to me. Is he still around? Does he have a store and do you have a link?

ausf

You may have missed the above post, but if you look at the full description it says, doesn't include box, which is a dead giveaway.

Besides, Chris' box art that this guy posted says Made In USA, but he's selling from Hong Kong.

Warriors is kind of a middling 1/35 US resin company, you think their stuff even OOP would sell from HK for 2 pounds?

I haven't done an AMPS show since I stopped making the tools about 5 years ago, so I haven't seen him since. I'm sure I can get in touch with him if you need to, but google would be your best option. After shows, everyone just hangs out in the bar and shoots the breeze, so you hear what's going on with Archer, Panzertracts, MMIR, AK, Alpine, etc., it's not like I was in business him.

Max-U52

I did notice the no box part, but before your help I didn't know what that meant. Another reason I was hoping you'd see this. I'll try googling him later on. That's Chris Mrosko?Thanks again, Jeff, I won't be buying anything from this guy. You know how I am about credibility so I'd rather err on the side of caution and miss out than buy something from someone that's hurting our hobby.

At least we got this out there so all our guys know the score.

ausf

I used to sell TWS (still have some stock), he makes some beautiful AM pieces, pouring resin after his full time job, works his butt off. I guarantee he's not selling from HK and every item sold overseas comes right from his pocket. And the kicker is, it's not like you're getting a bargain either.

ausf

I used to sell TWS (still have some stock), he makes some beautiful AM pieces, pouring resin after his full time job, works his butt off. I guarantee he's not selling from HK and every item sold overseas comes right from his pocket. And the kicker is, it's not like you're getting a bargain either.

cleong

I feel some contradiction here. While on one hand we recognize intellectual property of these products mentioned, we seem to ignore that policy when it comes to tanks themselves.

Its common knowledge that Chinese-made tanks are heavily "inspired" by those made in Japan, and yes, I am deliberately leaving out names. Yet there are guys who would swear by them, for various reasons, such as value for money, among others.

The only saving grace I can see is that these Chinese manufacturers are building upon that knowledge and starting to make their own unique molds, but do the ends justify the means?

Wozwasnt

But the Chinese company wasn't passing its "toys" off as the Japanese company's models. Selling something that resembles (inspired by) another manufactures product is one thing, trying to sell it as the original product is another.

YHR

Agreed. I will say they went too far on the box art, but inside they were as totally different as one could be and still call it a model of particular tank.

cleong

That's a fair point, and something I hadn't considered. But does that mean recasting and rebranding is okay, and recasting and passing off as original is not okay?

Wozwasnt

No it's not, but there's not many ways a company can build a Tiger tank without it looking the same as another manufactures Tiger tank.

I could go to Bovy with my calculator and ruler and build a complete tiger from scratch. Once it's painted people will ask me it it's HL or Tamiya.


PS. On a side note I'd just like to say I'm copyrighting my M7 Priest as of "NOW" so if anybody else builds a 1/16 M7 Priest (looking at you Mr Chinese company) then you can expect a nasty letter from my lawyer. (just need to get my M3 Lee done before anyone decides to copy me).

cleong

I say this from a vested perspective (of wanting more variety) that I wish there weren't yet another early Tiger I - why not do the Tiger mid or late production? Why the Panther G again, with the same crew heater, and the same late-model chin mantlet, and not a Panther D, A or F? But when you see even little details like positions of hull attachments and accessories being identical between two different brands, its hard to say its as innocent as just happening to model the same variant of a tank, and with tank commanders in the exact same pose? There are some exceptions however, like the KV-1 Ehkranami as opposed to the vanilla version - at least that's putting in some effort!

If you sold your M7 Priest, and someone used it as a mold master, would you be miffed? I mean, the rest of us would be really happy that there's another new tank on the market, but all you would have got was the price you sold it for. If it were me, I'd feel quite hard done-by.

Max-U52

I did a tiny bit of googling and it seems Chris's new world miniatures went under in 2011. Too bad, he's really got talent. When I get some time I might want to ask more about that stock you have left Jeff. And did you see the craziness I'm doing to my M41? I was wondering if you could make a figure to sit in the quad .50 unit. A lot of guys might want one of those for the halftrack as well.

YHR

Heng long pushed the limit on the copying Tamiya thing,but to my knowledge there are very few identical parts between a heng long and a tamiya. The commander pose and artwork were the biggest transgressions after that the tanks are about as different as they can be.

Regardless they have moved, and are breaking trail now at pace others seem unable to match.

Back on topic, these resin copies of a makers resin originals is flat out copying plain and simple.

ausf

Not even close to the same thing in my mind. Neither is right, but recasting is direct theft. At least there's some re-engineering by HL to make their Tiger, it's not a direct copy of Tamiya.

Here you have a complete ******* buying a kit, taking the actual pieces with pouring sprues, molding and casting and selling them. He's got a unique angle by using the original box art and saying its real, most just selling a 'grenadier' that they stole from Alpine, not selling a fake Alpine grenadier. Proper casting costs money and takes equipment as well as quality materials. I doubt he spends too much time worrying about it, so the results will be evident. Even if you get past bubbles, etc with filling, I bet every single one leaches phthalates over time, ruining any paint applied. Not to mention being carcinogenic to boot. Cheap resin is loaded with a bunch of nasties.

Bottom line is this drives most people out of the production side of it. Personally, I'd much rather sell a master to an injection molding company than produce my own resin copies. I'll never have to worry about it again, yet the quality of the injection is well below that of resin, so the end results is a mass produced, watered down version odf the original.

YHR

Also guys with 3D printing a lot of this discussion is for past technology. For a couple of hundred bucks people will be able to get anything made they want.

Cheers

Wozwasnt

If I was selling M7 Priest kits and somebody sold exact copies then I'd be miffed. If I sell my M7 and soon after exact remakes appeared on the market I'd take it as a complement. I'm not in a position or plan to be in a position to mass produce things. In fact if some guy from China mailed me and said he'd give me £500 because he wants to mass produce it then I'd be well chuffed.

ausf

I'll give you guys a perfect example of how it things like this work against people in this business.

Here's one of the tools I used to make:

http://www.ausfwerks.com/store/ausfdesign/1604/T.html

I helped design it with an engineer (his genius, my idea). We put it on the market to incredible reviews and reaction. I looked into protecting it and there was no viable way without a large expenditure of cash and the market (this is full modeling, including train guys, much larger than our meager corner) is too small to warrant. So we went ahead and did a bunch of production runs. I got plenty of offers to have it made overseas, but we stuck with US sources. Each and every production run got more expensive, so I had to raise the price. And the costs went up for no reason at all besides greed. That's the deal when you produce things in small maneageable quantities. You have to jump through hoops to get anything done and pay through the nose while doing it. We'd run around to laser cutters with our own sheets of 304 stainless, leave it with them to cut whenever they had downtime and pick it up at their convenience. Once they were familiar with the product, the next quote was through the roof and we were off to find another.

Finally it just wasn't worth the hassle. I literally made more profit on a single t-shirt than I did on the tool even at it's highest price.

Years later, I still get a few emails a week looking for one and have a list of hundreds waiting for the next production run. Won't happen.

Margins for small hobby suppliers are so tight, any blip like a recaster is enough to drive anyone out. I don't blame Chris for bailing.

Max-U52

Jeff, are you avoiding my question about a figure for the M41 AA?

ausf

Nope. Didn't see it until now.

The logistics of making a master are pretty involved, moreso when it has to fit to something else. I've been putting together the Russian, but only as wider release for static (as well as US and German).

If there was a static quad kit about to be released or something, I would look at it, but not for the OOP, little used RC option. I don't mean that as a slight in anyway, there just isn't enough time to do stuff that won't have wide appeal. It's not even a matter of doing one for myself and making a copy, because one offs are much easier than breaking down a master.

Doing a TC for the Panda Hobby 38(t) would make more sense than anything else out there, but since I already started on a few RC TCs before I realized how small the market is, I'll see them through, but nothing else that doesn't cross into the static world. Quad gunner would only work if I also did the Quad, but that ain't happening. Even if I wanted to do a gun, I'd choose a Flakvierling 20 over a quad for mass appeal since German outsells US by 10:1.

Max-U52

Thanks anyway. If you run across anything that may work please let me know.