Poor Design of T-34 by Taigen
05-26-2015, 02:14 PM
#26
Every opinion and statement posted seems valid enough and here are my thoughts:
A. The Tamiya setup for an IR rc tank metal hull purposed for rc tank club fighting may include some if not all of these modifications to achieve a dependable, repairable, durable, robust metal hull platform that offers long term repeatable, superior performance:
1. Road wheel bearings.
2. Splash guards; gearboxes.
3. Sturdy hull bracing; front & rear.
4. Gearboxes mount brace.
5. Spring loaded return idlers or similar.
6. Idler hull backing plates.
7. Plastic tracks are preferred, metal tracks are substituted if the kit plastic tracks are known to easily fail.
8. Metal elevation arm.
10. Some IR RC TANK models include a hinged deck lift for easy rc tank battery swaps during battle days.
11. The Tamiya slipper clutch is often replaced with the blue gear, or just as good, CA glue solid the Tamiya elevation and rotation units black slipper clutch gear, only, after first removing the clutch gear, then glue it together.
12. Metal drive sprockets.
B. These modifications are done for a whole host of good reasons, but mainly to keep the tracks on while IR fighting. A good performing any brand (including Tamiya) IR battle rc tank model is a little like a race car in that you will be replacing broken parts and rebuilding the thing to keep it in the game, however you build it, because you are running it abusively and or hard.
C. I like kit bashing too: Another workable, fighting IR rc tank build tactic; also the other extreme to the well engineered "awesome, Tamiya tough build"; is to run the least expensive Hen Long rc tank possible with your chosen rc electronics package setup and replace the HL OEM hull when it fails, as it will.
D. Either direction works for me, specially on the everyone and everything is welcomed "run what you brung rc club battle days".
E. The simple solution: Why not rebuild your IMEX Taigen T-34 hull or get a new one, after all, battling at Danville, it is more likely your combat driving wear and tear broke the hull, rather than the hull suffered an OEM failure.
F. "Competition use" pretty much voids most manufacturer's product warranty.
G. In comparison, an unimproved OEM Tamiya metal hull would very likely have suffered some wear and tear damage too. I found that to be true a decade ago with an out of the box built King Tiger, the hull was twisted out of shape, after just one day of outdoor rc club fighting at SCAT's old field. Bracing and a gearbox brace were the easy fixes back then as they are today. The idler fixes offered now are simple to install and worth it.
H. Enjoy the repair process, just part of the IR rc tank fighting hobby.
John
Photos: 1. Daryl Turner Custom Design Danville Purposed Tiger II Hull. 2. Hen Long – Tamiya Sherman light weight kit bash hull. 3. Daryl Turner Tamiya KV & JS idler solution.
A. The Tamiya setup for an IR rc tank metal hull purposed for rc tank club fighting may include some if not all of these modifications to achieve a dependable, repairable, durable, robust metal hull platform that offers long term repeatable, superior performance:
1. Road wheel bearings.
2. Splash guards; gearboxes.
3. Sturdy hull bracing; front & rear.
4. Gearboxes mount brace.
5. Spring loaded return idlers or similar.
6. Idler hull backing plates.
7. Plastic tracks are preferred, metal tracks are substituted if the kit plastic tracks are known to easily fail.
8. Metal elevation arm.
10. Some IR RC TANK models include a hinged deck lift for easy rc tank battery swaps during battle days.
11. The Tamiya slipper clutch is often replaced with the blue gear, or just as good, CA glue solid the Tamiya elevation and rotation units black slipper clutch gear, only, after first removing the clutch gear, then glue it together.
12. Metal drive sprockets.
B. These modifications are done for a whole host of good reasons, but mainly to keep the tracks on while IR fighting. A good performing any brand (including Tamiya) IR battle rc tank model is a little like a race car in that you will be replacing broken parts and rebuilding the thing to keep it in the game, however you build it, because you are running it abusively and or hard.
C. I like kit bashing too: Another workable, fighting IR rc tank build tactic; also the other extreme to the well engineered "awesome, Tamiya tough build"; is to run the least expensive Hen Long rc tank possible with your chosen rc electronics package setup and replace the HL OEM hull when it fails, as it will.
D. Either direction works for me, specially on the everyone and everything is welcomed "run what you brung rc club battle days".
E. The simple solution: Why not rebuild your IMEX Taigen T-34 hull or get a new one, after all, battling at Danville, it is more likely your combat driving wear and tear broke the hull, rather than the hull suffered an OEM failure.
F. "Competition use" pretty much voids most manufacturer's product warranty.
G. In comparison, an unimproved OEM Tamiya metal hull would very likely have suffered some wear and tear damage too. I found that to be true a decade ago with an out of the box built King Tiger, the hull was twisted out of shape, after just one day of outdoor rc club fighting at SCAT's old field. Bracing and a gearbox brace were the easy fixes back then as they are today. The idler fixes offered now are simple to install and worth it.
H. Enjoy the repair process, just part of the IR rc tank fighting hobby.
John
Photos: 1. Daryl Turner Custom Design Danville Purposed Tiger II Hull. 2. Hen Long – Tamiya Sherman light weight kit bash hull. 3. Daryl Turner Tamiya KV & JS idler solution.
Last edited by Pcomm1.v2; 05-26-2015 at 02:22 PM.
05-26-2015, 02:36 PM
#27
In the OPs defense, this isn't really a matter of 'hard driving will kill anything', this is a matter of 'it will fail, just a matter of when' type thing.
In a group where guys tend to scoff at using Tamiya's bronze bushings in lieu of roller bearings, it's hard to defend a design that uses plastic to support two metal parts (hull and swing arm). For those who aren't familiar, it's an aluminum hull with a plastic bushing. Dan saw the short coming as soon as he cracked the box. We all looked at it and said 'yikes'.
The question is, whether you want to spend the asking price and still need to mod. The answer is, yes, if you want a T-34.
In a group where guys tend to scoff at using Tamiya's bronze bushings in lieu of roller bearings, it's hard to defend a design that uses plastic to support two metal parts (hull and swing arm). For those who aren't familiar, it's an aluminum hull with a plastic bushing. Dan saw the short coming as soon as he cracked the box. We all looked at it and said 'yikes'.
The question is, whether you want to spend the asking price and still need to mod. The answer is, yes, if you want a T-34.
05-26-2015, 05:24 PM
#29
Seems like it's been forgotten that Taigen fills a spot between Tamiya and HL. They aren't priced like Tamiya and, therefore, don't quite hit the same quality level. They're more expensive than HL and are, generally, better than HL tanks. Taigen's tanks are built for "backyard battling" or to be durable RC vehicles used by families and friends in friendly events, not competition. The same exists in the RC car market. There are great cars from companies like Traxxas that run well out of the box, but fail quickly under hard use during competitions. Thus, their aftermarket parts used to upgrade the cars.
Even Tamiya tanks have weak points. If they didn't, Darryl's expertise wouldn't be needed or sought after.
At some point, you have to be accountable for your purchase decisions. You have the experience to recognize weak points in the design. Also, the weak points were identified by others early on; and HennTec addressed this one. Yet, you still purchased the tank, ignored the weakness, and battled it in a tough arena. It's good to identify an area that needs improvement. Taigen can choose to improve it or leave it as is and let the aftermarket parts vendors address it. But, demanding a warranty or reimbursement for a purchase decision you made, in spite of your own experience and the good judgment of others, seems disingenuous. You knew what you were doing and bought it anyways. Live with your purchase. Upgrade as desired, or toss it...whatever. But, don't whine and blame others for your problem, or expect them to bear the cost of addressing your problem.
Even Tamiya tanks have weak points. If they didn't, Darryl's expertise wouldn't be needed or sought after.
At some point, you have to be accountable for your purchase decisions. You have the experience to recognize weak points in the design. Also, the weak points were identified by others early on; and HennTec addressed this one. Yet, you still purchased the tank, ignored the weakness, and battled it in a tough arena. It's good to identify an area that needs improvement. Taigen can choose to improve it or leave it as is and let the aftermarket parts vendors address it. But, demanding a warranty or reimbursement for a purchase decision you made, in spite of your own experience and the good judgment of others, seems disingenuous. You knew what you were doing and bought it anyways. Live with your purchase. Upgrade as desired, or toss it...whatever. But, don't whine and blame others for your problem, or expect them to bear the cost of addressing your problem.
05-26-2015, 06:03 PM
#30
Seems like it's been forgotten that Taigen fills a spot between Tamiya and HL. They aren't priced like Tamiya and, therefore, don't quite hit the same quality level. They're more expensive than HL and are, generally, better than HL tanks. Taigen's tanks are built for "backyard battling" or to be durable RC vehicles used by families and friends in friendly events, not competition. The same exists in the RC car market. There are great cars from companies like Traxxas that run well out of the box, but fail quickly under hard use during competitions. Thus, their aftermarket parts used to upgrade the cars.
Even Tamiya tanks have weak points. If they didn't, Darryl's expertise wouldn't be needed or sought after.
At some point, you have to be accountable for your purchase decisions. You have the experience to recognize weak points in the design. Also, the weak points were identified by others early on; and HennTec addressed this one. Yet, you still purchased the tank, ignored the weakness, and battled it in a tough arena. It's good to identify an area that needs improvement. Taigen can choose to improve it or leave it as is and let the aftermarket parts vendors address it. But, demanding a warranty or reimbursement for a purchase decision you made, in spite of your own experience and the good judgment of others, seems disingenuous. You knew what you were doing and bought it anyways. Live with your purchase. Upgrade as desired, or toss it...whatever. But, don't whine and blame others for your problem, or expect them to bear the cost of addressing your problem.
Even Tamiya tanks have weak points. If they didn't, Darryl's expertise wouldn't be needed or sought after.
At some point, you have to be accountable for your purchase decisions. You have the experience to recognize weak points in the design. Also, the weak points were identified by others early on; and HennTec addressed this one. Yet, you still purchased the tank, ignored the weakness, and battled it in a tough arena. It's good to identify an area that needs improvement. Taigen can choose to improve it or leave it as is and let the aftermarket parts vendors address it. But, demanding a warranty or reimbursement for a purchase decision you made, in spite of your own experience and the good judgment of others, seems disingenuous. You knew what you were doing and bought it anyways. Live with your purchase. Upgrade as desired, or toss it...whatever. But, don't whine and blame others for your problem, or expect them to bear the cost of addressing your problem.
We live in a society where the status quo is the norm and customer service goes out the freaking door. What happened to the days of where the company satisfies the customers and looks after them? Do we live in the day where its the customers fault for buying a product (that they designed and manufactured) that I felt was gonna last but doesn't after only 6 months. It is the customers fault that stuff breaks down? So its our fault that Takata made great airbags that 34 million cars are affected? So its our fault that Keurig made K cups that burn us. So everything is the customers fault, well shame on us for being the consumers. Let us JUST DO AWAY WITH THE WHOLE RECALL SYSTEM THEN. I'm not going to sit back and let dust collect on a product that I spent good money on to not speak up and let the community know its short comings.
05-26-2015, 06:37 PM
#31
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Deep breath. Keep calm , Carry on.
Yes this hull has some issues, and many of us have commented on them months ago. You are the first to actually have one fail, so what was once theory, you have proven to be fact. I don't fault you for bringing it forward, as this is the very feedback that makes this forum so valuable. I just think you accept this as a weakness in the hull and do the upgrade to strengthen this weak point. As I, and others have mentioned Tamiya has some area of weakness as well. Expecting Taigen to come good for the repair after 6 months and four battles is probably stretching anyone's warranty seems to be what the general opinion is. An opinion you don't share which is absolutely fine. We can agree to disagree and what the expectation of resolution is. I get angry when I have to replace my Dishwasher every four years, and it doesn't seem to matter what brand I buy.
I hear in France the manufacturers are being told they have to warranty an appliance for 10 years. It appears a well made product that last 10 years is actually better for the environment then an energy efficient piece of crap that you have to throw away every four years!!!!!!
Yes this hull has some issues, and many of us have commented on them months ago. You are the first to actually have one fail, so what was once theory, you have proven to be fact. I don't fault you for bringing it forward, as this is the very feedback that makes this forum so valuable. I just think you accept this as a weakness in the hull and do the upgrade to strengthen this weak point. As I, and others have mentioned Tamiya has some area of weakness as well. Expecting Taigen to come good for the repair after 6 months and four battles is probably stretching anyone's warranty seems to be what the general opinion is. An opinion you don't share which is absolutely fine. We can agree to disagree and what the expectation of resolution is. I get angry when I have to replace my Dishwasher every four years, and it doesn't seem to matter what brand I buy.
I hear in France the manufacturers are being told they have to warranty an appliance for 10 years. It appears a well made product that last 10 years is actually better for the environment then an energy efficient piece of crap that you have to throw away every four years!!!!!!
05-26-2015, 07:35 PM
#32
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I understand completely where the OP is coming from. There are a couple of points that I am just going to throw my two cents in at and be done.
1. A lot of people on here have this illusion as to what the battle weekends at Danville are about. It is not a competition. It is no more a competition than any other battle weekend or event that is hosted in other areas throughout the world. It is just a group of men, women and kids having fun messing around with their tanks. With that being said I haven't seen anyone intentionally try to bash one tank into another. Actually everyone takes care to not ram into each others tanks. Yes the occasional bump or scape does happen, but it is usually a misread drive line or trying to squeeze past a dead tank. I have seen the OP drive in Danville. He is a good tanker. He hasn't done anything out of the ordinary that anyone else on here would have done with their tank.
2. This is a part that i think that most people might have missed or ignored. The OP's tank has only been through three battle weekends. 9 days or 87 hrs total. With that being said that is going on the idea that it was the only tank that he used during those weekends. He did not. Like most of the people that were at Danville he had multiple tanks and used them all. So basiclly the tank only really had about 60hrs of drive and battle time on it. Plus I'm sure there were some test drives at home in between battle weekends. So I'll call it about 72 hours. 3 days and the tank hull isn't usable without modification. Now yes I am guessing on how much time he drove it in between and the 60hrs of battle weekend time is actually on the high side. Any one that has been to Danville during a battle weekend then you know that there can be a descent amount of down time in between battles or once you have been destroyed.
3. He did actually modify the tank to what he thought would have resolved the issues with the lower hull. He replaced the metal tracks and roadwheels to take the strain off of the hull. Even with lightening the weight places on the sides of the lower hull it still bowed after relatively low hours.
4. I like Taigen I think that they are a good company. I don't think that they should replace the lower hull. At the end of the day it has been 6 months since purchase, and I don't remember seeing anything about a warranty on the hull. But at the same time I think that they should take an interest in failures like this, so that they can identify ways to correct it during the manufacturing process. I would hope that if Taigen wants to be a main player on the IR battle field as a real contender with Tamiya that they try to address these issues that pop up or worse are known and try to correct it.
Well thats just my two cents take it for what you think it worth.
Bill
1. A lot of people on here have this illusion as to what the battle weekends at Danville are about. It is not a competition. It is no more a competition than any other battle weekend or event that is hosted in other areas throughout the world. It is just a group of men, women and kids having fun messing around with their tanks. With that being said I haven't seen anyone intentionally try to bash one tank into another. Actually everyone takes care to not ram into each others tanks. Yes the occasional bump or scape does happen, but it is usually a misread drive line or trying to squeeze past a dead tank. I have seen the OP drive in Danville. He is a good tanker. He hasn't done anything out of the ordinary that anyone else on here would have done with their tank.
2. This is a part that i think that most people might have missed or ignored. The OP's tank has only been through three battle weekends. 9 days or 87 hrs total. With that being said that is going on the idea that it was the only tank that he used during those weekends. He did not. Like most of the people that were at Danville he had multiple tanks and used them all. So basiclly the tank only really had about 60hrs of drive and battle time on it. Plus I'm sure there were some test drives at home in between battle weekends. So I'll call it about 72 hours. 3 days and the tank hull isn't usable without modification. Now yes I am guessing on how much time he drove it in between and the 60hrs of battle weekend time is actually on the high side. Any one that has been to Danville during a battle weekend then you know that there can be a descent amount of down time in between battles or once you have been destroyed.
3. He did actually modify the tank to what he thought would have resolved the issues with the lower hull. He replaced the metal tracks and roadwheels to take the strain off of the hull. Even with lightening the weight places on the sides of the lower hull it still bowed after relatively low hours.
4. I like Taigen I think that they are a good company. I don't think that they should replace the lower hull. At the end of the day it has been 6 months since purchase, and I don't remember seeing anything about a warranty on the hull. But at the same time I think that they should take an interest in failures like this, so that they can identify ways to correct it during the manufacturing process. I would hope that if Taigen wants to be a main player on the IR battle field as a real contender with Tamiya that they try to address these issues that pop up or worse are known and try to correct it.
Well thats just my two cents take it for what you think it worth.
Bill
05-26-2015, 07:47 PM
#33
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I would think avoiding the negative publicity would be more than worth the cost of a hull, especially one they can replace at cost. In my opinion it is penny wise and pound foolish. When I sold firearms, the quality manufactures always accepted returns to address failures of any kind. Consider a Glock is roughly the same price as this T34...Hell, even Hipoint has a pretty liberal return policy...
05-27-2015, 12:19 PM
#34
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Perhaps Taigen can leverage their purchasing power and get some Hentec kits to offer as upgrades. Then maybe use this t-34 and owner as a pre-runner for the fix....
The Tiger looks to have a Hentec already in it.
I bet this owner would be satisfied and future customers would have a part available should they choose it. Add a little slip of paper that says for increased durability we recommend XYZ and we also offer XYZ accessories.
The Tiger looks to have a Hentec already in it.
I bet this owner would be satisfied and future customers would have a part available should they choose it. Add a little slip of paper that says for increased durability we recommend XYZ and we also offer XYZ accessories.
Last edited by Rustytrax; 05-27-2015 at 12:22 PM.
05-27-2015, 02:57 PM
#36
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This is where the forum comes in. Feedback and observations shared will help people make informed choices. Anyone who has participated in this forum or particularly in this thread will know what to expect from the Taigen T-34 hull.
We all know the issues with Heng long, but we keep on buying them because of the value.
Taigen needs to settle into its place in the market place as well. People can then make informed choices when they purchase an Item based on what they have seen and heard.
I have this hull, and it has its flaws, but I know that I can fix these flaws. IMO the positives outweigh the negatives, and it is not like you have a lot of selection when it comes to a T-34 hull
We all know the issues with Heng long, but we keep on buying them because of the value.
Taigen needs to settle into its place in the market place as well. People can then make informed choices when they purchase an Item based on what they have seen and heard.
I have this hull, and it has its flaws, but I know that I can fix these flaws. IMO the positives outweigh the negatives, and it is not like you have a lot of selection when it comes to a T-34 hull
Last edited by YHR; 05-27-2015 at 08:30 PM.
05-28-2015, 01:37 AM
#37
Where a new product is trying to hit a new quality and price plateau, I feel that it is an investment for a company to bend (a little) over backwards to keep customers happy - they make or break the brand's credibility in what is arguably a close-knit community where word-of-mouth counts a lot in a product's success. While I can see Imex and Erik's position and fully emphasize their hesitation in extending a replacement (lest it opens the floodgates), perhaps some kind of engagement with Danny as a form of service recovery could win customers in the long run. Its what Erik has already been doing all this while, and frankly I was a little surprised that Danny was cut off like that. Talk to Danny - find out what happened, and discuss what could be improved. Prospective owners do not want to be in the same position as Danny, no matter how understanding they might be in understanding the business principles - they want to be taken care of, especially when they are paying a premium price.
While Danville is not a Robot-wars arena by any stretch of imagination, it is by far the hardest battlefield any 1/16th scale tank is likely to ever see in their lifetime, and if it survives there, it should survive anywhere (save for the crazy guys that insist on driving their tanks on beaches and in mud). Instead of calling Danville un-reasonable use, that should be the standard by which a competent 1/16th scale tank should be judged, and something that a manufacturer can proudly claim their product stands up to. Its not silly driving, its just scale terrain, intense combat, and any $500 tank worth its cost should be able to survive a weekend (or two) there before needing depot-level maintenance.
Seriously, Taigen, don't drop the ball now. The support has been outstanding so far. I bought stuff from Erik and he threw in extras because he felt I might find it useful (not because I had asked for it). Tamiya wouldn't do that. They are a by-the-book corporation with clock-punching employees that happen to be in the tank department by assignment and not by choice. I personally talked to Erik and I know he is passionate about tanks. Dont' let one or two cases mess up the reputation that you guys have built. Though I own an all-Tamiya fleet of tanks I dearly want to see Taigen or someone else step up and give me credible alternatives, along with the support. When I am dropping a grand on a tank, I think that is only reasonable. I wouldn't drop that kind of money on a warmed-over Heng Long and accept excuses in return.
While Danville is not a Robot-wars arena by any stretch of imagination, it is by far the hardest battlefield any 1/16th scale tank is likely to ever see in their lifetime, and if it survives there, it should survive anywhere (save for the crazy guys that insist on driving their tanks on beaches and in mud). Instead of calling Danville un-reasonable use, that should be the standard by which a competent 1/16th scale tank should be judged, and something that a manufacturer can proudly claim their product stands up to. Its not silly driving, its just scale terrain, intense combat, and any $500 tank worth its cost should be able to survive a weekend (or two) there before needing depot-level maintenance.
Seriously, Taigen, don't drop the ball now. The support has been outstanding so far. I bought stuff from Erik and he threw in extras because he felt I might find it useful (not because I had asked for it). Tamiya wouldn't do that. They are a by-the-book corporation with clock-punching employees that happen to be in the tank department by assignment and not by choice. I personally talked to Erik and I know he is passionate about tanks. Dont' let one or two cases mess up the reputation that you guys have built. Though I own an all-Tamiya fleet of tanks I dearly want to see Taigen or someone else step up and give me credible alternatives, along with the support. When I am dropping a grand on a tank, I think that is only reasonable. I wouldn't drop that kind of money on a warmed-over Heng Long and accept excuses in return.
05-28-2015, 05:20 AM
#38
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This thread was getting a little off topic with the Danville talk, so I started another thread here.
[h=1]A short homage to Battling at Danville[/h]
[h=1]A short homage to Battling at Danville[/h]
05-28-2015, 05:51 AM
#39
While Erik has reached out to me on getting more pics and researching the flaws, I have the Taigen T-34 fully disassembled and in decommissioned mode and is now with a machine shop. They will attempt to fab out an entirely new hull either in one piece or multiple and get back to me with estimates. I am going to get them to fab out new metal swing arms as well. Depending on cost, they have offered to make more than one at a discounted price. The more I buy the less it will cost. PM me if you are interested in replacing your current hull.
Last edited by dlobmwm3; 05-28-2015 at 06:36 AM.
05-28-2015, 11:01 AM
#40
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There were some ideas on an earlier thread on beefing up the swing arms. Quite doable. I am not sure you need to go to a fully machined hull. If you do all the power to you.
05-29-2015, 06:36 AM
#48
05-29-2015, 09:07 AM
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well it sounds like the T34 is going to be a tank of a tank on the battlefield once it is all said and done. Not to bogart the thread but your issue got me thinking about my JS-2. Now my lower hull is metal and the idler system is attached to the hull. there is only a small piece of metal that is used to help brace the hull. The lower glacis is just plastic and is a failure point for the JS-2. So to try to help corret his I added a piece of aluminum angle to mount attachment to the idler and lower glacis. My hope is that the angle aluminum will help to brace this area and prevent any camber problems that might be caused once I upgrade the tracks and motors. I'll start a seperate thread on it in case any of my other fellow JS-2 owners want to throw thier thoughts on it or even try it out for themselves.
Bill
Bill
