Ex Pat's Panther Marathon
06-21-2015, 08:28 AM
#1
Thread Starter
Ex Pat's Panther Marathon
The Duel in the Mist books have given me too many expensive ideas... 
So time to tackle the pile of Panthers I've been slowly accumulating over the last 4 years...
Exhausts (taken from Pantigers
) I've covered in another thread, The top one is going to be an MAN built example, the bottom one will be a Daimler.
On to the turrets.
LAH's distinctive track hangers, made from 1mm diameter brass wire. The first set was a pain to do, but after that I'd gotten the hang of it and was able to turn them out fairly quickly
Quick picture of the insides:
Rounded mantlets:
For the longest time I'd wonder how to do these, should I clone the Profiline one that came with the D model kit? Should I get the Schumo ones? As it happened, the Schumo ones are either out of stock or stupidly expensive at the moment - so I just decided to bite the bullet, back fill the chin with Miliput and then shave it with the Dremel. A few hours of sanding and filling later, I'm actually quite surprised at how good they look
So time to tackle the pile of Panthers I've been slowly accumulating over the last 4 years...
Exhausts (taken from Pantigers
) I've covered in another thread, The top one is going to be an MAN built example, the bottom one will be a Daimler.On to the turrets.
LAH's distinctive track hangers, made from 1mm diameter brass wire. The first set was a pain to do, but after that I'd gotten the hang of it and was able to turn them out fairly quickly
Quick picture of the insides:
Rounded mantlets:
For the longest time I'd wonder how to do these, should I clone the Profiline one that came with the D model kit? Should I get the Schumo ones? As it happened, the Schumo ones are either out of stock or stupidly expensive at the moment - so I just decided to bite the bullet, back fill the chin with Miliput and then shave it with the Dremel. A few hours of sanding and filling later, I'm actually quite surprised at how good they look
06-21-2015, 11:16 AM
#2
Martin, you never cease to amaze me. 
Have you got your paint schemes picked out? I always thought it would be cool to do a pair (or a trio or even a quad) of tanks from the same unit on patrol or heading to a new location. Like a whole convoy.
Are you planning any improvements to the pivot points for the barrel? Aren't they a little weak with this set-up for elevation? On the airsoft it's even worse, so I'll be paying close attention to this one.
Have you got your paint schemes picked out? I always thought it would be cool to do a pair (or a trio or even a quad) of tanks from the same unit on patrol or heading to a new location. Like a whole convoy.
Are you planning any improvements to the pivot points for the barrel? Aren't they a little weak with this set-up for elevation? On the airsoft it's even worse, so I'll be paying close attention to this one.
06-21-2015, 01:48 PM
#3
Thread Starter
111 - Built by Daimler, painted in Ambush scheme, abandoned in La Gleize and blown up by US troops a couple of miles east after it broke down as they tried to drive it away:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/deckarudo/13065937594
152 - Befehlspanther built by MAN, painted in factory 3 colour camo, with Zimmerit on the turret. Hit and burned in Ligneuville
http://www.network54.com/Forum/61931...+December+1944
131 - MAN built (or maybe MNH, I forget which?) Disc camo, knocked out by P47's outside of Cheneux, south of Stoumont.
https://houseofqueeg.files.wordpress...disc-bulge.jpg
221 (or 231, haven't decided), MAN factory 3 colour with steel wheels, abandoned in La Gleize
http://libellule.heavy.jp/site/vehicules/PantherSW.html
234 - MAN Factory 3 colour, knocked out in Stoumont.
(can't find a picture online right now, but there are plenty available)
https://www.flickr.com/photos/deckarudo/13065937594
152 - Befehlspanther built by MAN, painted in factory 3 colour camo, with Zimmerit on the turret. Hit and burned in Ligneuville
http://www.network54.com/Forum/61931...+December+1944
131 - MAN built (or maybe MNH, I forget which?) Disc camo, knocked out by P47's outside of Cheneux, south of Stoumont.
https://houseofqueeg.files.wordpress...disc-bulge.jpg
221 (or 231, haven't decided), MAN factory 3 colour with steel wheels, abandoned in La Gleize
http://libellule.heavy.jp/site/vehicules/PantherSW.html
234 - MAN Factory 3 colour, knocked out in Stoumont.
(can't find a picture online right now, but there are plenty available)
06-21-2015, 01:53 PM
#4
Martin, has already stated that they will be M.A.N and Daimler Benz so they will have M.A.N and Daimler Benz factory paint jobs.
Martin will you be adding the lifting pints to the mantle and adding the pour plug marks also you will want to remove the horse shoe bit in front of the cupola.
What are your intentions with the other 3 Panther you have waiting.
Martin will you be adding the lifting pints to the mantle and adding the pour plug marks also you will want to remove the horse shoe bit in front of the cupola.
What are your intentions with the other 3 Panther you have waiting.
06-21-2015, 02:13 PM
#6
Thread Starter
And this is why I post! 
I keep meaning to call you to pick your brains on this stuff...
Tank-Modelbau have parts for the mantlet lifting points, I'll picking them up as soon as I'm happy with the mantlets themselves.
I can whip the doo-dad in front of the cupola off roof easily enough, that's one of the details that I hadn't even considered (the drivers periscope rain hood was a good catch by Jeff as well - I think 111 should have one based on 215 and 202 both being Daimlers and having it fitted, the rest probably not)
Other 3?!? I have the D model kit in storage, what are the other 2??
I keep meaning to call you to pick your brains on this stuff...Tank-Modelbau have parts for the mantlet lifting points, I'll picking them up as soon as I'm happy with the mantlets themselves.
I can whip the doo-dad in front of the cupola off roof easily enough, that's one of the details that I hadn't even considered (the drivers periscope rain hood was a good catch by Jeff as well - I think 111 should have one based on 215 and 202 both being Daimlers and having it fitted, the rest probably not)
Other 3?!? I have the D model kit in storage, what are the other 2??
06-21-2015, 02:15 PM
#7
Thread Starter
06-21-2015, 03:08 PM
#8
Martin, disc pattern by M.A.N, is in Vol 1 DitM page 282 they have a rather nice right hand side colour plate, Page 283 shows an original picture of 283 from 11.Pz.Div being towed away complete with zimmerit in the M.N.H pattern.
Vol 2 DitM has a disc pattern Panther on page 63, this is 114 on page 65 it shows the left side of 114 and it does state MNH, on page 66, 124 not stated, the interesting picture is on page 112 this shows the right side of 131 by M.N.H which corresponds with the colour plate in Vol 1 by M.A.N, it could be as with the Hinterhalt (ambush pattern) used both by Daimler Benz and M.A.N that also both M.A.N and M.N.H used the disc pattern, I can send a scan from Vol 1 if you need it.
.
Vol 2 DitM has a disc pattern Panther on page 63, this is 114 on page 65 it shows the left side of 114 and it does state MNH, on page 66, 124 not stated, the interesting picture is on page 112 this shows the right side of 131 by M.N.H which corresponds with the colour plate in Vol 1 by M.A.N, it could be as with the Hinterhalt (ambush pattern) used both by Daimler Benz and M.A.N that also both M.A.N and M.N.H used the disc pattern, I can send a scan from Vol 1 if you need it.
.
06-21-2015, 03:48 PM
#9
Thread Starter
I have all 3 volumes 
(You should know this from my rivetcounting around La Gleize last year 
)
Quite a lot of Peipers Disc camo'd Panthers are attributed to MNH.
Does Jentz and Doyle's work shed light on the topic?
Also - Page 65, is that the rain guard over the drivers periscope I'm seeing, or something else?
(You should know this from my rivetcounting around La Gleize last year )Quite a lot of Peipers Disc camo'd Panthers are attributed to MNH.
Does Jentz and Doyle's work shed light on the topic?
Also - Page 65, is that the rain guard over the drivers periscope I'm seeing, or something else?
Last edited by Ex_Pat_Tanker; 06-21-2015 at 03:53 PM.
06-22-2015, 04:11 AM
#12
Martin,
Jentz and Doyle concentrate on detail and when modifications and new parts are introduced I have to admit that I don’t know the difference between disc patterns on M.N.H and M.A.N Panther apart from Balkan cross location this is the same with the Hinterhalt patterns.
Yes it’s a rain guard over the drivers periscope on page 65 Vol 2 and also page 70with Panther 202.
The LAH Panthers as you know were drawn from 3 factories from September to November 44 during this time period the following modifications were introduced
Zimmerit stopped
Chin on the gun mantle
Larger self-cleaning idler wheel
Flammvernichter exhausts
Crew heater
Elevated seat for driver
Poison gas identification panels
The rain guard over driver’s periscope was introduced in August 44 as was the debris guard over the gun mantle and factory paint jobs.
Its known that the modifications were not introduced the same time at all factories and also that modifications when introduced could take up to 3 months before they were standard on all Panther leaving a given factory hence why we see few pictures of the rain guard over the drivers periscope and there seems to be a lack of chin gun mantles and larger idler wheels on all Panther belonging to LAH this would be the same for all other units with Panther, just had a quick scan and I have found a Panther with the late idler wheel this is 234 in Vol 2 Page161 – 167 this Panther features a crew heater no rain cover over the drivers periscope and standard gun mantle, not all LAH Panther from the Ardennes offensive had crew heaters and at least 1 had the very rare reinforced gun mantle this is not the chin type V0l 2 Page 54 Panther 002, Jentz doesn’t say when this mantle type appeared it can also be very difficult to notice in pictures, most of this what I have said if not all I know you will already be familiar with , this evening I will have a look at the links above and see what details I can pick out.
Jentz and Doyle concentrate on detail and when modifications and new parts are introduced I have to admit that I don’t know the difference between disc patterns on M.N.H and M.A.N Panther apart from Balkan cross location this is the same with the Hinterhalt patterns.
Yes it’s a rain guard over the drivers periscope on page 65 Vol 2 and also page 70with Panther 202.
The LAH Panthers as you know were drawn from 3 factories from September to November 44 during this time period the following modifications were introduced
Zimmerit stopped
Chin on the gun mantle
Larger self-cleaning idler wheel
Flammvernichter exhausts
Crew heater
Elevated seat for driver
Poison gas identification panels
The rain guard over driver’s periscope was introduced in August 44 as was the debris guard over the gun mantle and factory paint jobs.
Its known that the modifications were not introduced the same time at all factories and also that modifications when introduced could take up to 3 months before they were standard on all Panther leaving a given factory hence why we see few pictures of the rain guard over the drivers periscope and there seems to be a lack of chin gun mantles and larger idler wheels on all Panther belonging to LAH this would be the same for all other units with Panther, just had a quick scan and I have found a Panther with the late idler wheel this is 234 in Vol 2 Page161 – 167 this Panther features a crew heater no rain cover over the drivers periscope and standard gun mantle, not all LAH Panther from the Ardennes offensive had crew heaters and at least 1 had the very rare reinforced gun mantle this is not the chin type V0l 2 Page 54 Panther 002, Jentz doesn’t say when this mantle type appeared it can also be very difficult to notice in pictures, most of this what I have said if not all I know you will already be familiar with , this evening I will have a look at the links above and see what details I can pick out.
06-22-2015, 07:23 AM
#14
The majority of tanks you want to build should have the original early 600mm idler these can be bought from Asiatam are very accurate, starting in October 1944 the late 650mm idler wheel was fitted this should be the standard idler wheel fitted to both Heng Long and Tamiya
06-22-2015, 07:40 AM
#15
Thread Starter
Ok, so you are referring to the Asiatam 'Panther A' set, correct?
Are the plastic sprockets correct or should I use the metal ones that come with the idlers?
Are the plastic sprockets correct or should I use the metal ones that come with the idlers?
06-22-2015, 08:59 AM
#17
This is what I managed to come up with, have a look and see what you think I may have missed some things and it’s possible that one of these Panther may have the reinforced gun mantle though none have the chin gun mantle
111, DB, rain guard, 600mm early idler wheel, Hinterhalt, cast round armoured exhaust, crew heater
131, MNH, round cast armoured exhaust covers, crew heater, rain guard over gun mantle, 600mm early idler wheel, disc pattern, it may also have a rain guard over the drivers periscope
152, MAN Befehlspanther, zimmerit on turret and mantle, rain guard over mantle, poison gas markers, 600mm early idler wheel, welded square armoured exhausts, no crew heater
221, MAN, steel wheels, 600mm early idler wheel, no crew heater, welded square armoured exhaust covers, debris guard over gun mantle/231, MAN steel wheels, 600mm idler wheel, the rest should be the same as 221
234, MAN late 650mm idler wheel, crew heater, rain guard over mantle, welded square armoured exhaust,
111, DB, rain guard, 600mm early idler wheel, Hinterhalt, cast round armoured exhaust, crew heater
131, MNH, round cast armoured exhaust covers, crew heater, rain guard over gun mantle, 600mm early idler wheel, disc pattern, it may also have a rain guard over the drivers periscope
152, MAN Befehlspanther, zimmerit on turret and mantle, rain guard over mantle, poison gas markers, 600mm early idler wheel, welded square armoured exhausts, no crew heater
221, MAN, steel wheels, 600mm early idler wheel, no crew heater, welded square armoured exhaust covers, debris guard over gun mantle/231, MAN steel wheels, 600mm idler wheel, the rest should be the same as 221
234, MAN late 650mm idler wheel, crew heater, rain guard over mantle, welded square armoured exhaust,
06-22-2015, 10:44 AM
#19
Thread Starter
This is what I managed to come up with, have a look and see what you think I may have missed some things and it’s possible that one of these Panther may have the reinforced gun mantle though none have the chin gun mantle
111, DB, rain guard, 600mm early idler wheel, Hinterhalt, cast round armoured exhaust, crew heater
131, MNH, round cast armoured exhaust covers, crew heater, rain guard over gun mantle, 600mm early idler wheel, disc pattern, it may also have a rain guard over the drivers periscope
152, MAN Befehlspanther, zimmerit on turret and mantle, rain guard over mantle, poison gas markers, 600mm early idler wheel, welded square armoured exhausts, no crew heater
221, MAN, steel wheels, 600mm early idler wheel, no crew heater, welded square armoured exhaust covers, debris guard over gun mantle/231, MAN steel wheels, 600mm idler wheel, the rest should be the same as 221
234, MAN late 650mm idler wheel, crew heater, rain guard over mantle, welded square armoured exhaust,
111, DB, rain guard, 600mm early idler wheel, Hinterhalt, cast round armoured exhaust, crew heater
131, MNH, round cast armoured exhaust covers, crew heater, rain guard over gun mantle, 600mm early idler wheel, disc pattern, it may also have a rain guard over the drivers periscope
152, MAN Befehlspanther, zimmerit on turret and mantle, rain guard over mantle, poison gas markers, 600mm early idler wheel, welded square armoured exhausts, no crew heater
221, MAN, steel wheels, 600mm early idler wheel, no crew heater, welded square armoured exhaust covers, debris guard over gun mantle/231, MAN steel wheels, 600mm idler wheel, the rest should be the same as 221
234, MAN late 650mm idler wheel, crew heater, rain guard over mantle, welded square armoured exhaust,
Also - (another reason why this is costing me sooo much money) just saw this go up on the Asiatam site:
http://www.asiatam.com/product_info....tigmodell.html
I haven't even finished painting the Kubelwagon yet...
06-22-2015, 01:32 PM
#21
Martin, yes the Panther engine vent or Lüfter http://www.asiatam.com/product_info....r-luefter.html is spot on, the vent also comes with Tamiya Panther and Jagdpanther as an option so you can use either the raised crew heater of the normal vent I suspect there may be one or two spares about.
Asiatam had the Opel Multier on offer at Dortmund along with their entire range
Asiatam had the Opel Multier on offer at Dortmund along with their entire range
06-22-2015, 06:03 PM
#23
The Duel in the Mist books have given me too many expensive ideas...
So time to tackle the pile of Panthers I've been slowly accumulating over the last 4 years...
Exhausts (taken from Pantigers ) I've covered in another thread, The top one is going to be an MAN built example, the bottom one will be a Daimler.
On to the turrets.
LAH's distinctive track hangers, made from 1mm diameter brass wire. The first set was a pain to do, but after that I'd gotten the hang of it and was able to turn them out fairly quickly
Quick picture of the insides:
Rounded mantlets:
For the longest time I'd wonder how to do these, should I clone the Profiline one that came with the D model kit? Should I get the Schumo ones? As it happened, the Schumo ones are either out of stock or stupidly expensive at the moment - so I just decided to bite the bullet, back fill the chin with Miliput and then shave it with the Dremel. A few hours of sanding and filling later, I'm actually quite surprised at how good they look
So time to tackle the pile of Panthers I've been slowly accumulating over the last 4 years...
Exhausts (taken from Pantigers
) I've covered in another thread, The top one is going to be an MAN built example, the bottom one will be a Daimler.On to the turrets.
LAH's distinctive track hangers, made from 1mm diameter brass wire. The first set was a pain to do, but after that I'd gotten the hang of it and was able to turn them out fairly quickly
Quick picture of the insides:
Rounded mantlets:
For the longest time I'd wonder how to do these, should I clone the Profiline one that came with the D model kit? Should I get the Schumo ones? As it happened, the Schumo ones are either out of stock or stupidly expensive at the moment - so I just decided to bite the bullet, back fill the chin with Miliput and then shave it with the Dremel. A few hours of sanding and filling later, I'm actually quite surprised at how good they look
Looks like you will be busy for a while
