Psssst! hey buddy you want to buy a tank?
07-02-2015, 11:38 PM
#1
Thread Starter
Psssst! hey buddy you want to buy a tank?
Ummmmm some 78 year old dude might be in hot wasser over this one...
Recovered from a private home??
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/artic...#disqus_thread
Not a lot of info in the article...
A bit more in this one:
http://www.thelocal.de/20150702/poli...dden-in-cellar
I wonder if this is that guy Hr. Flick ( sp?) I read about years ago who had got his hands on a Panther G. The second article said he had tried to drive it in the snow in the late 1970s; I seem to recall a photo of Hr Flick driving or trying to drive his Panther in the snow before something broke. I thought Hr Flick had got his Panther hull in nearly new condition after it was discovered in some warehouse or so the story goes....
Jerry
Recovered from a private home??
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/artic...#disqus_thread
Not a lot of info in the article...
A bit more in this one:
http://www.thelocal.de/20150702/poli...dden-in-cellar
I wonder if this is that guy Hr. Flick ( sp?) I read about years ago who had got his hands on a Panther G. The second article said he had tried to drive it in the snow in the late 1970s; I seem to recall a photo of Hr Flick driving or trying to drive his Panther in the snow before something broke. I thought Hr Flick had got his Panther hull in nearly new condition after it was discovered in some warehouse or so the story goes....
Jerry
Last edited by Tanque; 07-02-2015 at 11:50 PM.
07-03-2015, 01:36 AM
#2
Gerry I’m 95% certain that this is indeed the Herr Flick Panther that hasn’t been seen since the 1970’s the Panther was recovered from a scrap yard in England this is one of the post war built Panther that was built by the REME for evaluation purposes, it would seem that this is part of an on-going investigation into stolen art a few years ago an old chap was found with hundreds of looted paintings that hadn’t been seen since before the second world war, it seems that this old chaps father was in charge of looted art for the Nazies hence why he had the art some of which was thought to have been destroyed on Hitler’s orders as being “Perverse or Jewish art” over the last few years a number of very wealthy people have had their houses raided in search of looted art, back on subject, there are other tanks in private collections in Germany including a Panther A and a Panther D which have recently been restored also in the Düsseldorf area there is a chap restoring a few halftracks the larger types one is a Famo and there are a number of people who own Planes such as BF109 and FW190 most are never seen in public owing to stigma of the time period these vehicle’s belong.
Pictures of the Herr Flick Panther are near the bottom http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=548534
Pictures of the Herr Flick Panther are near the bottom http://www.wehrmacht-awards.com/foru...d.php?t=548534
07-03-2015, 05:58 AM
#4
https://www.ndr.de/nachrichten/schle...nsfund124.html
07-03-2015, 08:54 AM
#5
Thread Starter
I for one hear you Mark but you must know how we in the US are conditioned by media to react to people who are 'different' or rather have different , off mainstream interests here in the US. They ARE nutters, 'eccentrics' or plain weirdos. For a supposedly 'tolerant' society as we're supposed to be we are highly intolerant.
I have no doubt that we modelers, armor enthusiasts in particular are viewed as nutters by some. You know: one person's collector is another person's nutter. Usually by those who see themselves as 'tolerant' or at worst 'inclusive'.
I for one hope this incident isn't as it appears to be and the military equipment was in fact legal under German law and will yet be restored to the fellow but I find myself with sinking heart. On the bright side perhaps his Panther and FlaK 88 will find a proper home where they could be seen and appreciated by more people.
A friend sent me this reference this morning:
http://www.thelocal.de/20150702/poli...dden-in-cellar
Jerry
I have no doubt that we modelers, armor enthusiasts in particular are viewed as nutters by some. You know: one person's collector is another person's nutter. Usually by those who see themselves as 'tolerant' or at worst 'inclusive'.
I for one hope this incident isn't as it appears to be and the military equipment was in fact legal under German law and will yet be restored to the fellow but I find myself with sinking heart. On the bright side perhaps his Panther and FlaK 88 will find a proper home where they could be seen and appreciated by more people.
A friend sent me this reference this morning:
http://www.thelocal.de/20150702/poli...dden-in-cellar
Jerry
07-03-2015, 10:20 AM
#6
It's easy for us in the States to dismiss things like this when we don't have to deal with unexploded ordinance that is still found on beaches and fields in Europe. As it is, some of the nicest hikinng trails around my area are closed due to wayward artillery shells from West Point, I can't imagine what some conditions may be like in places where thousands of tons of munitions were used.
Besides, how can it be government theft? If anything it's recovering property since I doubt he purchased the Panther or the 88 from a dealer.
Besides, how can it be government theft? If anything it's recovering property since I doubt he purchased the Panther or the 88 from a dealer.
07-03-2015, 12:31 PM
#7
The point is that I've seen way too many government workers that are way too quick to confiscate property. Jerry may remember the incident in Monterey where the old boy was shot and killed by the swat team that raided his ranch looking for pot plants. They never found so much as a seed, but what stuck in my mind was the deputy commenting to the reporter that "all we have to do is find three plants and we can confiscate his ranch" which the feds had been trying to buy for years. The same deputy also revealed that if successful a large percentage of the proceeds from the sale of the ranch would have gone to the sheriff's department, where it would be used for things like training, equipment and employee bonuses.
Whenever there are items of great value involved I am immediately suspicious of the motives of the government. I could list pages of incidents where the police have confiscated "drug money" just because the person in possession of the money was too young, or the wrong skin color. Don't ever expect me to be supportive of any government confiscations of high dollar items.
I also read in the article that the old man claims none of the armaments are functional.
I love the country I live in, but I can't say that about the government that runs it.
Whenever there are items of great value involved I am immediately suspicious of the motives of the government. I could list pages of incidents where the police have confiscated "drug money" just because the person in possession of the money was too young, or the wrong skin color. Don't ever expect me to be supportive of any government confiscations of high dollar items.
I also read in the article that the old man claims none of the armaments are functional.
I love the country I live in, but I can't say that about the government that runs it.
Last edited by Max-U52; 07-03-2015 at 12:33 PM.
07-03-2015, 12:36 PM
#8
07-03-2015, 12:44 PM
#9
The point is that I've seen way too many government workers that are way too quick to confiscate property. Jerry may remember the incident in Monterey where the old boy was shot and killed by the swat team that raided his ranch looking for pot plants. They never found so much as a seed, but what stuck in my mind was the deputy commenting to the reporter that "all we have to do is find three plants and we can confiscate his ranch" which the feds had been trying to buy for years. The same deputy also revealed that if successful a large percentage of the proceeds from the sale of the ranch would have gone to the sheriff's department, where it would be used for things like training, equipment and employee bonuses.
Whenever there are items of great value involved I am immediately suspicious of the motives of the government. I could list pages of incidents where the police have confiscated "drug money" just because the person in possession of the money was too young, or the wrong skin color. Don't ever expect me to be supportive of any government confiscations of high dollar items.
I also read in the article that the old man claims none of the armaments are functional.
I love the country I live in, but I can't say that about the government that runs it.
Whenever there are items of great value involved I am immediately suspicious of the motives of the government. I could list pages of incidents where the police have confiscated "drug money" just because the person in possession of the money was too young, or the wrong skin color. Don't ever expect me to be supportive of any government confiscations of high dollar items.
I also read in the article that the old man claims none of the armaments are functional.
I love the country I live in, but I can't say that about the government that runs it.
07-03-2015, 01:30 PM
#10
In reality, none of us know the circumstances, whether how things were purchased or if they were truly deactivated or just non-functional. A whole lotta people die every year from 'non functional' or 'unloaded' weapons. Would you like the guy next door to keep a crate of dynamite in his garage? Even if he didn't have fuses?
Personally, I'd love to find my neighbor had a Panther on his property. On the flip side, if I found he had a WWII era torpedo on his property that he tapped daily with a ball peen, not so much. It's all a matter of perspective and what he was fixin' to do with it.
Personally, I'd love to find my neighbor had a Panther on his property. On the flip side, if I found he had a WWII era torpedo on his property that he tapped daily with a ball peen, not so much. It's all a matter of perspective and what he was fixin' to do with it.
07-03-2015, 01:45 PM
#11
Max, I posted a link to a German news page which has several video interviews and as you imply you understand German also this is going to come as a great shock so please sit down “Germany does not come under US law” now take a moment to try and understand this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, there is no state conspiracy, Police in Europe do not storm peoples residence blazing away with assault rifles.
Jerry, about 3 years ago an old chap in Munich was found with a vast horde as in hundreds of looted paintings from the Nazi period some of which Hitler ordered destroyed but more than 70 years later the German government is trying to return the pictures to the rightful owners which is a difficult task, at the moment there is a Waffen SS concentration camp accountant being charged with accessory to genocide Germany takes this period very seriously and perhaps the chap with the Panther who is somehow linked to the art investigation is being difficult and not cooperative with the authority’s hence why they are removing his collection which no doubt will be very expensive to return and who will pay for this, so long as all the weapons have been correctly decommissioned and he has the relevant paperwork then all will be returned, anyone who will lovingly restore a Panther to perfect condition is not likely to have a live torpedo under his house the explosives have probably long since been removed.
In parts of France the recovery of WWI bombs is a daily occurrence WWII munitions are the same especially in places such as Berlin.
Jerry, about 3 years ago an old chap in Munich was found with a vast horde as in hundreds of looted paintings from the Nazi period some of which Hitler ordered destroyed but more than 70 years later the German government is trying to return the pictures to the rightful owners which is a difficult task, at the moment there is a Waffen SS concentration camp accountant being charged with accessory to genocide Germany takes this period very seriously and perhaps the chap with the Panther who is somehow linked to the art investigation is being difficult and not cooperative with the authority’s hence why they are removing his collection which no doubt will be very expensive to return and who will pay for this, so long as all the weapons have been correctly decommissioned and he has the relevant paperwork then all will be returned, anyone who will lovingly restore a Panther to perfect condition is not likely to have a live torpedo under his house the explosives have probably long since been removed.
In parts of France the recovery of WWI bombs is a daily occurrence WWII munitions are the same especially in places such as Berlin.
07-03-2015, 02:58 PM
#12
Thread Starter
Mark I understand that Germany is particularly sensitive to the times and legacy of the National Socialist era as they are correct in being so.
I'd read about the search for stolen art and the recent revelations in that regard as well as the recent prosecution of the ex-bookkeeper.
Attitudes towards Nazi artifacts and Nazism is no laughing matter in Germany; the laws I understand are strict and enforced. I believe there
are probably few people alive today who were don't have to look very far into their family history to find someone who was touched by the Nazi
/Axis era or the war it brought. So indeed a lot of people are still very sensitive about it. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that during our active
years engaged with all aspects of armor few of us have NEVER run into anyone who hasn't questioned an interest in "Nazi Tanks".
That's a long winded way of saying some people see the weapons of the day as the instruments of forcing an unwanted and destructive ideology
on the world; there are those who can't separate ideology from technology.
For someone who saw these things smash their pre-war lives I could understand it.
You may well be right Mark about the guy being uncooperative; I spoke to a fellow in Germany earlier and we touched on this case; so far the information he's seen is thin and does not yet explain the confiscation. I have to believe it was done for good reasons.
BTW I also have to believe that the tank has tracks but getting it to roll around on its road wheels on paved roadways is easier than getting it to roll on tracks.
I understood that the drive line is broken in someway so it can't be driven at present; but I've not read this last factoid....
Jerry
I'd read about the search for stolen art and the recent revelations in that regard as well as the recent prosecution of the ex-bookkeeper.
Attitudes towards Nazi artifacts and Nazism is no laughing matter in Germany; the laws I understand are strict and enforced. I believe there
are probably few people alive today who were don't have to look very far into their family history to find someone who was touched by the Nazi
/Axis era or the war it brought. So indeed a lot of people are still very sensitive about it. I'll bet dollars to doughnuts that during our active
years engaged with all aspects of armor few of us have NEVER run into anyone who hasn't questioned an interest in "Nazi Tanks".
That's a long winded way of saying some people see the weapons of the day as the instruments of forcing an unwanted and destructive ideology
on the world; there are those who can't separate ideology from technology.
For someone who saw these things smash their pre-war lives I could understand it.
You may well be right Mark about the guy being uncooperative; I spoke to a fellow in Germany earlier and we touched on this case; so far the information he's seen is thin and does not yet explain the confiscation. I have to believe it was done for good reasons.
BTW I also have to believe that the tank has tracks but getting it to roll around on its road wheels on paved roadways is easier than getting it to roll on tracks.
I understood that the drive line is broken in someway so it can't be driven at present; but I've not read this last factoid....
Jerry
Max, I posted a link to a German news page which has several video interviews and as you imply you understand German also this is going to come as a great shock so please sit down “Germany does not come under US law” now take a moment to try and understand this,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, there is no state conspiracy, Police in Europe do not storm peoples residence blazing away with assault rifles.
Jerry, about 3 years ago an old chap in Munich was found with a vast horde as in hundreds of looted paintings from the Nazi period some of which Hitler ordered destroyed but more than 70 years later the German government is trying to return the pictures to the rightful owners which is a difficult task, at the moment there is a Waffen SS concentration camp accountant being charged with accessory to genocide Germany takes this period very seriously and perhaps the chap with the Panther who is somehow linked to the art investigation is being difficult and not cooperative with the authority’s hence why they are removing his collection which no doubt will be very expensive to return and who will pay for this, so long as all the weapons have been correctly decommissioned and he has the relevant paperwork then all will be returned, anyone who will lovingly restore a Panther to perfect condition is not likely to have a live torpedo under his house the explosives have probably long since been removed.
In parts of France the recovery of WWI bombs is a daily occurrence WWII munitions are the same especially in places such as Berlin.
Jerry, about 3 years ago an old chap in Munich was found with a vast horde as in hundreds of looted paintings from the Nazi period some of which Hitler ordered destroyed but more than 70 years later the German government is trying to return the pictures to the rightful owners which is a difficult task, at the moment there is a Waffen SS concentration camp accountant being charged with accessory to genocide Germany takes this period very seriously and perhaps the chap with the Panther who is somehow linked to the art investigation is being difficult and not cooperative with the authority’s hence why they are removing his collection which no doubt will be very expensive to return and who will pay for this, so long as all the weapons have been correctly decommissioned and he has the relevant paperwork then all will be returned, anyone who will lovingly restore a Panther to perfect condition is not likely to have a live torpedo under his house the explosives have probably long since been removed.
In parts of France the recovery of WWI bombs is a daily occurrence WWII munitions are the same especially in places such as Berlin.
07-03-2015, 03:47 PM
#13
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"I for one hear you Mark but you must know how we in the US are conditioned by media to react to people who are 'different' or rather have different , off mainstream interests here in the US. They ARE nutters, 'eccentrics' or plain weirdos. For a supposedly 'tolerant' society as we're supposed to be we are highly intolerant."
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HEAR, HEAR, Jerry!!!
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HEAR, HEAR, Jerry!!!
07-03-2015, 03:57 PM
#14
Jerry, from people who I have spoken to in Germany this period is very much a taboo subject but I didn’t realise how sensitive until I lived there, the best approach is to wait until people discuss it with you (some friends have waited 6 years) it’s not that some don’t wish to talk about this period but you have to remember that everyone in Germany was affected some more than others, families have been torn apart members have been permanently disowned for membership of the Waffen SS no matter how small even if they were forced or drafted in to the SS and they were, but absolutely no one talks of this period with pride.
Apparently the last time Flick drove the Panther the transmission failed this may be why the tank is not on tracks it may also be to preserve the road surface, I wonder who will pay for all the Police, Army and at least x4 Elefant tank transporters plus at least x2 Bergleopard this must be a hefty bill, my thoughts are he is being awkward so the authorities are being more awkward, I bet they could examine the weapons in place but by transferring them to a military base for inspection the cost will be very high, a Panther G in this condition must be worth at least Ł3million or 4.5million€
Apparently the last time Flick drove the Panther the transmission failed this may be why the tank is not on tracks it may also be to preserve the road surface, I wonder who will pay for all the Police, Army and at least x4 Elefant tank transporters plus at least x2 Bergleopard this must be a hefty bill, my thoughts are he is being awkward so the authorities are being more awkward, I bet they could examine the weapons in place but by transferring them to a military base for inspection the cost will be very high, a Panther G in this condition must be worth at least Ł3million or 4.5million€
07-03-2015, 04:00 PM
#15
RC, you still miss the point. Governments tend to abuse their power to confiscate.
Now, sorry I got into this discussion, it's not why I come to the forum, I'll go back to the main menu and RC Tanks. Have a nice day.
Now, sorry I got into this discussion, it's not why I come to the forum, I'll go back to the main menu and RC Tanks. Have a nice day.
07-03-2015, 05:10 PM
#18
Thread Starter
Jerry, from people who I have spoken to in Germany this period is very much a taboo subject but I didn’t realise how sensitive until I lived there, the best approach is to wait until people discuss it with you (some friends have waited 6 years) it’s not that some don’t wish to talk about this period but you have to remember that everyone in Germany was affected some more than others, families have been torn apart members have been permanently disowned for membership of the Waffen SS no matter how small even if they were forced or drafted in to the SS and they were, but absolutely no one talks of this period with pride.
person who I met who spoke of his wartime experiences pretty freely, openly. That was the late Walter Schuck in 2009 and that was more about his combat experience, relationship with superiors and service comrades..Anyone who knows me over there knows I'm pretty apolitical, I don't even care to get in to current politics ( mostly because it makes my blood boil ). That all said I never forget that others
are sensitive about the times. I think we as ( current crop) Americans are on the whole seen as somewhat clueless and relatively uninformed as far as history goes ( present company excluded) and
even naive.. not entirely an undeserved reputation I'm afraid. While I'm proud of my country and what we've accomplished here we have elements of our own history that isn't anything to crow about...
One of my own mother's cousins served in the Italian army in North Africa prior to the regular war; somewhere I still have a letter to her he wrote while a 'detainee' somewhere in Ethiopia.... Several family friends' experiences I recall hearing as a child that if heard again now would probably make me see things a bit differently I'm sure; I remember my dad's supervisor coming over once ( they were buddies too) telling us about his experiences after the Normandy invasion; the first time I'd heard why many army jeeps had the angle iron welded to the front.... My own dad served in the US Navy prior to WWII as a radio man; I still have business cards he collected from his travels in the East including that of a Japanese Naval officer he apparently met while in port somewhere...
The thing that has always struck me about WWII is the sheer volume of resources that went into it on all sides.. As a kid and even later well into the 1970s entire store front businesses along Market street in San Francisco made a living selling WWII surplus stuff, much of it new. I still have radio parts that my dad had got new in their packaging with US Naval acceptance stamps... and go out on Ebay from just about any European country and the US... you'll probably never stop seeing WWII surplus new of some kind. What incredible waste...and then there's all the people... madness...
Sorry I went waaaay off subject. Tanks. - a hole in the air surrounded by metal into which we pour money..
Jerry
07-04-2015, 02:28 PM
#22
Alo alo Martin, I think you are the only one smart enough to think of that. I must admit that it’s a few years since I associated the two except this chap has a big tank and not a little tank with a bent gun
07-05-2015, 04:27 PM
#25
Thread Starter
Unless the regulations were a lot more lax when he got the thing from England and they sold it with an operational breech ring or he 'found' an operational breech ring somewhere while restoring the Panther Id be interested in knowing what constitutes a improperly demilitarized tank. I remember when Littlefield restored his tanks they welded the breech ring together and
made it look as perfectly functional but in no way could they withstand the power of a live round. Even so they had to had an ATF permit or rather a manufacturer's license to do that legally
as technically they could fire.
I have my curiosiry I wonder what old Hr Flick was up to...
Seems from reading the comments attached the the article Mark posted that a lot of folks over there are questioning the whys of the raid...Perhaps the Budeswehr needed some new
exhibits for their museum so they went a'lookin...
Jerry
made it look as perfectly functional but in no way could they withstand the power of a live round. Even so they had to had an ATF permit or rather a manufacturer's license to do that legally
as technically they could fire.
I have my curiosiry I wonder what old Hr Flick was up to...
Seems from reading the comments attached the the article Mark posted that a lot of folks over there are questioning the whys of the raid...Perhaps the Budeswehr needed some new
exhibits for their museum so they went a'lookin...
Jerry