Theres a bad apple in every bunch
02-14-2016, 06:30 AM
#26
Join Date: Feb 2015
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I just wanted to comment that I had pin issue with my TBU also. It was where it plugged into the MFU, very intermittant, works great now. Not saying you cant have a bad apple.
02-14-2016, 08:42 AM
#27
Thread Starter
3 bad apples that don't kill 3 Tamiya tanks. Also swapped to a brand new base with the same bad results. That's pretty definite its not a pin issue.
Not once did we get a good signal from the bad apples on any tank.
If you get results as you describe by tilting the apple back to make contact, then I would imagine one of two problems exist, a worn pin spring contact in the base, or a bad solder joint on a pin on the pcb in the apple.
I suspected this at first during our first tests but after lots of testing I could not make any apple work on any Tamiya tank.
Not once did we get a good signal from the bad apples on any tank.
If you get results as you describe by tilting the apple back to make contact, then I would imagine one of two problems exist, a worn pin spring contact in the base, or a bad solder joint on a pin on the pcb in the apple.
I suspected this at first during our first tests but after lots of testing I could not make any apple work on any Tamiya tank.
02-14-2016, 09:46 AM
#29
Thread Starter
I have no idea what it could be....
The Tamiya tanks still register the hit, the LEDs flash, the tank makes the incoming hit sound and jerks, but does not sputter the engine, and does not count it towards the KO count.
The after market boards do work for what ever reason.
Simple fact is, we have 3 apples two fresh out of the box, that do not kill Tamiya tanks. Bad QC is the only explanation. There are components in the apple, its not just an IR receiver, there are some ICs on the PCB in that thing.
The Tamiya tanks still register the hit, the LEDs flash, the tank makes the incoming hit sound and jerks, but does not sputter the engine, and does not count it towards the KO count.
The after market boards do work for what ever reason.
Simple fact is, we have 3 apples two fresh out of the box, that do not kill Tamiya tanks. Bad QC is the only explanation. There are components in the apple, its not just an IR receiver, there are some ICs on the PCB in that thing.
02-14-2016, 10:17 AM
#30
I have no idea what it could be....
The Tamiya tanks still register the hit, the LEDs flash, the tank makes the incoming hit sound and jerks, but does not sputter the engine, and does not count it towards the KO count.
The after market boards do work for what ever reason.
Simple fact is, we have 3 apples two fresh out of the box, that do not kill Tamiya tanks. Bad QC is the only explanation. There are components in the apple, its not just an IR receiver, there are some ICs on the PCB in that thing.
The Tamiya tanks still register the hit, the LEDs flash, the tank makes the incoming hit sound and jerks, but does not sputter the engine, and does not count it towards the KO count.
The after market boards do work for what ever reason.
Simple fact is, we have 3 apples two fresh out of the box, that do not kill Tamiya tanks. Bad QC is the only explanation. There are components in the apple, its not just an IR receiver, there are some ICs on the PCB in that thing.
02-14-2016, 10:24 AM
#31
I have no idea what it could be....
The Tamiya tanks still register the hit, the LEDs flash, the tank makes the incoming hit sound and jerks, but does not sputter the engine, and does not count it towards the KO count.
The after market boards do work for what ever reason.
Simple fact is, we have 3 apples two fresh out of the box, that do not kill Tamiya tanks. Bad QC is the only explanation. There are components in the apple, its not just an IR receiver, there are some ICs on the PCB in that thing.
The Tamiya tanks still register the hit, the LEDs flash, the tank makes the incoming hit sound and jerks, but does not sputter the engine, and does not count it towards the KO count.
The after market boards do work for what ever reason.
Simple fact is, we have 3 apples two fresh out of the box, that do not kill Tamiya tanks. Bad QC is the only explanation. There are components in the apple, its not just an IR receiver, there are some ICs on the PCB in that thing.
Sounds more like electronics on-board than the apples. Apples are doing their job, receiving the hit... they do not do the killing.
Or ESO.
Jeff
02-14-2016, 04:46 PM
#32
Thread Starter
Tell me how then 3 of my apples kill all my Tamiya tanks and his Tamiya tank just fine. Then along comes these new apples and they wont kill any Tamiya tanks.
Under normal troubleshooting process, this dictates that it would not be the Tamiya tank systems failing but the apples, since the Tamiya tanks work fine on several other apples. In fact, my friends tank super Sherman ran fine in a battle with a borrowed apple from Jeff at the LA battle.
I can tell you guys think Im crazy but I know how to troubleshoot and find problems using logical process.
There is only one other explanation for symptoms in a situation like this, that the Tamiya tank systems are so finicky and poorly engineered or QCed, that they work with some apples and not others. This I don't believe because the problem has not been prevalent or discussed in any seriousness until now.
After doing so much testing I cannot at this point be convinced that the problem is anything other than bad apples.
Yes, the new apple will be returned by my friend and exchanged, the replacement will be tested and if it doesn't work, then it will be exchanged until he gets a good one.
This does also correlate a little with what Tamiya told my friend when he sent them his tank. After they played with it for two weeks they told him since he bought it in japan they wont warranty it, but they mentioned for him to try changing the battle system. Which is where we started when he got it back.
03-08-2016, 09:52 AM
#33
Thread Starter
Just an update, my friend received his third apple from tower, boom, kills his super sherman every time. Works on all my tamiya tanks just fine.
He is very happy now. Hes new to tanks and I felt bad since I got him into this and he started off with a hell of a time.
He is very happy now. Hes new to tanks and I felt bad since I got him into this and he started off with a hell of a time.
03-08-2016, 10:01 AM
#34
I just bought a battle system off eBay last week... popped the apple in every tank so equipped and it works great. Even with the tank the system that it was installed in worked flawlessly.
I think it's a sign... RC tanks must not be your thing.
Jeff
I think it's a sign... RC tanks must not be your thing.
Jeff
03-08-2016, 10:24 AM
#35
Thread Starter
Well, 3 of my 4 apples work fine on my tamiya tanks. 1 does not. I have more barc and ibu tanks than tamiya and it took my friends dillema for me to realize I had one bad one that doesnt work on tamiya tanks.
09-21-2016, 05:02 AM
#36
Rich,
Looks like you were the guinea pig on this one. We found 2 newbie tankers with god mode issues at the last Danville event. Since the other clubs don't run inspections they've been playing with bum apples this past year since our last event. Looks like the base and/or apple pin layout or engagement is the issue. We're going to have to rattle tamiya's bell about this issue so everyone make some noise on the forums and send some emails to tamiya. Here's a write up Daryl Turner just came up with.
I was curious so here is what I came up with in my inspection of Tamiya GFS systems, since I have both “new” and “older” styles.
Comparing a “new” Tamiya battle system kit to an “old” Tamiya battle system kit, I found two significant things. As for age, my original battle system is about 8 years old, but is unopened. The “new” unit is recent, my guess less than one year old. There are no changes in packaging so using the package to judge age is pointless. You must look at the clues I am going to provide to judge what parts you have.
The most significant change is the length of the 5 pins on the bottom of the “apple” or GFS unit as Tamiya calls it. Old length is 8.8mm and the new pins are 5.5mm long. The pins on an “older” original GFS unit will extend beyond the plastic housing. The “newer” unit, the pins DO NOT extend beyond the plastic housing.
This is a significant length difference.
Next design change is the “Molex” style female connector in the Tamiya identified GFS base. This is the black circular mount that is mounted into the vehicle. The original units before the change all had a proprietary smooth white 5–conductor flush connector that had wide-blade contact terminals inside. These wide spring blade terminals are what contact the pins that exit the GFS unit (apple) when you push it on. It’s a very good design. The newer units have a black connector housing that is identified as a 5-pin Molex style housing, and is not indexed in the base housing in same manner as the white connectors are. The indexing offers polarity control, so the plugs fit only one way. The injection molded black housing which holds the black Molex connector has two ribs now which align the Molex connector. This design creates slop or misalignment (in all three axis in fact) , in itself not a bad thing, but it offers a new dynamic that we normally did not deal with. To help visualize, the comparisons are best done via the photos I have taken.
That all said, the 5-pin Molex style housing usually has what is best described as square female terminals inside the housing. These terminals are what contact the pins that exit the GFS unit. Without taking anything apart, my educated guess is that the short pins can cause intermittent contact inside the Molex connector. The square female style terminals do not contact the pins in the same manner as the flat blade style terminals (found on the older units). Under some circumstances you can have no electrical contact with square style terminals, the pin literally being so perfectly centered that it does not contact any of the four sides of the female terminal. Conversely, with the blade style terminals, spring pressure of the blade on one side of the pin always ensures electrical contact across the points that touch. Added to the fact that the pins exiting the GFS unit are shorter than original, the likelihood of a compromised contact is very high. Only one pin needs to be compromised, by the way, and I will assume it’s whatever pin is handling the signal for “hit” in our case.
The best way to confirm this is to measure the depth of contact of the square terminals, measured from the inside. There is a point where the pins don’t touch the terminals (not engaged), and this is the difference in the height of the two GFS bases inside the Molex connector, where it matters. An older GFS unit likely will always work on both the new and older GFS base. My thought is the newer base in conjunction with the shorter pins on the newer GFS unit will create a questionable resistance value and is causing signal corruption.
As for the square pin dimensions on the GFS unit (apple), I am measuring .63-.64mm (square) consistently between both older and newer units, telling me the pins are still pretty much the same cross section regardless of vintage. The lengths I gave above in earlier text.
The outside of the GFS unit (apple) is also the same between both the older and the newer design, meaning the injection molded alignment (index) feature is the same depth and does not influence the actual pin penetration depth into the plug that it fits into.
The photos I have provided show the major changes.
I would have to rig up a test fixture to see if I can get the newer GFS system to give faulty performance in order to find a valid solution to the problem. One solution is to gently bend the terminals in the direction of the spring that is inside the female terminal blocks. The bend may be just half of a degree, so not much. You have to take the whole GFS base apart to determine the correct orientation for the location of the spring flap that is formed inside the tiny terminal.
Hope this provides useful information to you all.
-Daryl
Looks like you were the guinea pig on this one. We found 2 newbie tankers with god mode issues at the last Danville event. Since the other clubs don't run inspections they've been playing with bum apples this past year since our last event. Looks like the base and/or apple pin layout or engagement is the issue. We're going to have to rattle tamiya's bell about this issue so everyone make some noise on the forums and send some emails to tamiya. Here's a write up Daryl Turner just came up with.
I was curious so here is what I came up with in my inspection of Tamiya GFS systems, since I have both “new” and “older” styles.
Comparing a “new” Tamiya battle system kit to an “old” Tamiya battle system kit, I found two significant things. As for age, my original battle system is about 8 years old, but is unopened. The “new” unit is recent, my guess less than one year old. There are no changes in packaging so using the package to judge age is pointless. You must look at the clues I am going to provide to judge what parts you have.
The most significant change is the length of the 5 pins on the bottom of the “apple” or GFS unit as Tamiya calls it. Old length is 8.8mm and the new pins are 5.5mm long. The pins on an “older” original GFS unit will extend beyond the plastic housing. The “newer” unit, the pins DO NOT extend beyond the plastic housing.
This is a significant length difference.
Next design change is the “Molex” style female connector in the Tamiya identified GFS base. This is the black circular mount that is mounted into the vehicle. The original units before the change all had a proprietary smooth white 5–conductor flush connector that had wide-blade contact terminals inside. These wide spring blade terminals are what contact the pins that exit the GFS unit (apple) when you push it on. It’s a very good design. The newer units have a black connector housing that is identified as a 5-pin Molex style housing, and is not indexed in the base housing in same manner as the white connectors are. The indexing offers polarity control, so the plugs fit only one way. The injection molded black housing which holds the black Molex connector has two ribs now which align the Molex connector. This design creates slop or misalignment (in all three axis in fact) , in itself not a bad thing, but it offers a new dynamic that we normally did not deal with. To help visualize, the comparisons are best done via the photos I have taken.
That all said, the 5-pin Molex style housing usually has what is best described as square female terminals inside the housing. These terminals are what contact the pins that exit the GFS unit. Without taking anything apart, my educated guess is that the short pins can cause intermittent contact inside the Molex connector. The square female style terminals do not contact the pins in the same manner as the flat blade style terminals (found on the older units). Under some circumstances you can have no electrical contact with square style terminals, the pin literally being so perfectly centered that it does not contact any of the four sides of the female terminal. Conversely, with the blade style terminals, spring pressure of the blade on one side of the pin always ensures electrical contact across the points that touch. Added to the fact that the pins exiting the GFS unit are shorter than original, the likelihood of a compromised contact is very high. Only one pin needs to be compromised, by the way, and I will assume it’s whatever pin is handling the signal for “hit” in our case.
The best way to confirm this is to measure the depth of contact of the square terminals, measured from the inside. There is a point where the pins don’t touch the terminals (not engaged), and this is the difference in the height of the two GFS bases inside the Molex connector, where it matters. An older GFS unit likely will always work on both the new and older GFS base. My thought is the newer base in conjunction with the shorter pins on the newer GFS unit will create a questionable resistance value and is causing signal corruption.
As for the square pin dimensions on the GFS unit (apple), I am measuring .63-.64mm (square) consistently between both older and newer units, telling me the pins are still pretty much the same cross section regardless of vintage. The lengths I gave above in earlier text.
The outside of the GFS unit (apple) is also the same between both the older and the newer design, meaning the injection molded alignment (index) feature is the same depth and does not influence the actual pin penetration depth into the plug that it fits into.
The photos I have provided show the major changes.
I would have to rig up a test fixture to see if I can get the newer GFS system to give faulty performance in order to find a valid solution to the problem. One solution is to gently bend the terminals in the direction of the spring that is inside the female terminal blocks. The bend may be just half of a degree, so not much. You have to take the whole GFS base apart to determine the correct orientation for the location of the spring flap that is formed inside the tiny terminal.
Hope this provides useful information to you all.
-Daryl
Last edited by TheBennyB; 09-21-2016 at 05:13 AM.
09-21-2016, 05:47 AM
#37
Thanks for sharing Benny, I did think it was an issue with a loose connection some where, worryingly it looks like a significant design floor with the new apples and bases. Better hold on to my old ones
09-21-2016, 09:50 AM
#38
Thread Starter
Did you insert older or different apples into the newer style bases on these tanks to see if god mode went away and the tank worked? This is very important.
Also would need to test the new short pin apples on other tanks preferably with older and newer style bases.
this process would then determine if the newer bases are the problem, or the newer apples, or if it is only a problem of the new apple and new base combined together.
defineately want to know how this comes out.
Also would need to test the new short pin apples on other tanks preferably with older and newer style bases.
this process would then determine if the newer bases are the problem, or the newer apples, or if it is only a problem of the new apple and new base combined together.
defineately want to know how this comes out.
09-21-2016, 09:56 AM
#39
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Did you insert older or different apples into the newer style bases on these tanks to see if god mode went away and the tank worked? This is very important.
Also would need to test the new short pin apples on other tanks preferably with older and newer style bases.
this process would then determine if the newer bases are the problem, or the newer apples, or if it is only a problem of the new apple and new base combined together.
defineately want to know how this comes out.
Also would need to test the new short pin apples on other tanks preferably with older and newer style bases.
this process would then determine if the newer bases are the problem, or the newer apples, or if it is only a problem of the new apple and new base combined together.
defineately want to know how this comes out.
and here is the kicker , old and new Apple worked in old tank with old base
09-21-2016, 01:27 PM
#41
Yup, the AAF museum is going to bring it to the attention of their Tamiya representative. For the most part if your at an event and this occurs you can just swap with someone that has an older apple. The new apple will work in the old base.
This will mainly affect 1st time tank/battle system buyers. Hopefully Tamiya hears us, though we all know what a small niche of tamiya this part of their company is. I know next time I head down to Danville I plan on taking any stock apples I haven't painted with me in case anyone needs to swap.
This will mainly affect 1st time tank/battle system buyers. Hopefully Tamiya hears us, though we all know what a small niche of tamiya this part of their company is. I know next time I head down to Danville I plan on taking any stock apples I haven't painted with me in case anyone needs to swap.
09-22-2016, 12:18 PM
#43
Yup. Further testing was done on a sherman and other malfunctions have been found, lightly plug the new apple into the new gfs base. the tank will register hits and sputter the engine sound buy no led's light up. Still doing more bench testing but it really looks to be a pin interface problem.
09-22-2016, 01:58 PM
#44
Thread Starter
I am sad to hear that these newbies experienced this, but I suspected it would start to rear its head soon. We had a fella at this SD battle with an ibu and tamiya apple that wouldnt light the LEDs but still killed the tank. All new equipment so probably the same problem as apple swapping did not solve the led issue.
Overall I appreciate your report very much and feel vindicated from some of the slighted remarks made toward me calling me crazy etc.
Overall I appreciate your report very much and feel vindicated from some of the slighted remarks made toward me calling me crazy etc.
09-22-2016, 02:42 PM
#45
I am sad to hear that these newbies experienced this, but I suspected it would start to rear its head soon. We had a fella at this SD battle with an ibu and tamiya apple that wouldnt light the LEDs but still killed the tank. All new equipment so probably the same problem as apple swapping did not solve the led issue.
Overall I appreciate your report very much and feel vindicated from some of the slighted remarks made toward me calling me crazy etc.
Overall I appreciate your report very much and feel vindicated from some of the slighted remarks made toward me calling me crazy etc.
09-22-2016, 02:52 PM
#46
The other variable to look at could be if the mounting bracket for the GFS base has longer bosses now for some reason. Base would be lower and possibly cause the apple to feel seated but it's hung up in the cupola, not fully seating. Also there seems to be some differences with electronics on the apple/base boards. Could have to do with voltage regulating. Think Daryl is going to look into that side of it.
Last edited by TheBennyB; 09-22-2016 at 02:57 PM.
09-22-2016, 10:18 PM
#47
I am sad to hear that these newbies experienced this, but I suspected it would start to rear its head soon. We had a fella at this SD battle with an ibu and tamiya apple that wouldnt light the LEDs but still killed the tank. All new equipment so probably the same problem as apple swapping did not solve the led issue.
Overall I appreciate your report very much and feel vindicated from some of the slighted remarks made toward me calling me crazy etc.
Overall I appreciate your report very much and feel vindicated from some of the slighted remarks made toward me calling me crazy etc.
09-23-2016, 09:16 AM
#48
AAF museum has talked to their Tamiya representative and they are now aware of the problem. Tamiya has a big expo in the next week or two so they informed the museum to be patient and hopefully they will have an idea of whats going on with these "new" battle units and get back to us in a couple weeks.
09-23-2016, 09:28 AM
#49
Me neither! I certainly hope my vague, dry commit wasn't taken that way. I haven't used any "new" Tamiya equipment yet so things sure can happen between then and now. Especially with electronics.
Jeff
09-26-2016, 07:57 PM
#50
- Hey Rich,
Glad you made public and forced the issue all the way to Tamiya to solve the new generation Tamiya Battle Unit glitch issue with the GFS base, that uses the new style black plug. Congrats to Daryl for discovering the new GFS Plug does not make consistent contact with the old Apple or new length male Apple plug pins. I have the older white plug GFS bases, hence I could not duplicate the glitches as you described them.
Heck, I did not know Tamiya had changed to that black GFS plug and shortened the pin length on the newest Apples to boot
A perfect electrical lack of contact cluster foul up. Seems to be a reinvention of the round peg in the square electrical hole method of electrical engineering. Perhaps, the current generation of the vaunted Tamiya engineers missed "building block play time" in pre school 
Building the new Tamiya Jagdpanzer Lang kit and working on the Leopard 1 static to f/o conversion Daryl Turner one off custom design tank. Take care, good job!
John