RichJohnson

So in search of the correct US armor OD color, some of you have seen my posts in other threads about the color OD used.
No manufacturer makes anything near correct for Armor OD. Keep in mind that wheeled vehicles and equipment had a lighter OD like testors color.
The US made OD with Ochre and black. Since Ochre is not an available color I did my own mixing.
I did lots of mixing with Tamiya colors using black, brown and yellow.
Basically I got the color that matches samples I have that I believe are correct based on my experience restoring real military vehicles, color descriptions in writing, and the very few period color photos that I have seen, along with the article by Steve Zoluga.
I used 2ml black, 2ml yellow and 2ml brown. This achieved the exact color I was looking for once it was sprayed with a gloss coat.
Armor OD was flat going into the war, then switched to semi gloss mid war, by 44 at least, maybe earlier. This makes a color become much darker in shade, though its the same color.

Below picture 1 shows the Tamiya hull painted with this mixture thinned with alcohol and it is flat. (Not the chassis) The Ez8 is testors OD for comparison.



Now sprayed with testors gloss over coat with my airbrush.


Below photos show comparison against a dirt background and a green background. The tanks color is not green and not brown.

philipat

Interesting how it looks greenish in the vegetation and very brown in the dirt...

Thanks for the mix info. To translate that into Tamiya paints, is that using XF-1 (flat black), XF-3 (flat yellow), XF-10 (flat brown)? No green at all?

RichJohnson

The color names are correct, I didnt note the xf numbers. Ide have to go look at the bottles on the shelf.

but that is correct, no green at all. Olive drab does not have green in it because the two binary colors are black and ochre, ( which is an orangy mustardy color). I achived this by the yellow and brown, because mixing the black and yellow only, you get an olive green color amazingly, but not the drab.

ausf

That's spot on Vallejo OD. At least the way it looks on my monitor. A lot of people were unhappy with Vallejo's take, complaining about it being too brown, it never bothered me though. In my experience, they are much more accurate than Tamiya.

I don't know how paint varied from factories, technically it's supposed to be consistent to federal standard, but there are so many variables at play. I know OD uniforms varied wildly even before they were put to use, which of course changed them significantly in the field.

It's really hard to get exact colors, photos change over time, paint changes under exposure, etc, but your research seems as solid as any. Bottom line, it's your tank and I think it looks great.

yellowshaker

My Feedback: (1)

ammo of mig makes olive drab, as well as a Sherman paint set, which is great. Take a look at his site.

jarndice

Something to remember,
A 1/16 Tank painted in authentic olive drab will look darker than the full size Tank painted in the same color straight from the same paint can,.
That applies to every authentic paint color used in 1/16 modelling.
shaun.

Wozwasnt

Some years ago I found this interesting article about Olive Drab.
http://www.militarymodelling.com/new...ive-drab/4536/

I use Vallejo OD and find it changes colour with the lighting.

Old MSgt

Rich, here's that 'Can Of Worms' I mentioned earlier. When I was deciding which OD color to paint this Sherman I'm building I looked at a lot of web sites trying to decide. I liked the 'OD' color of the Sherman on the www.tm9ordnance.com site, under Photo Gallery: Mil-Spec NJ.

I'm basing my Sherman on one 'built' in the second quarter of 1944. So I found paint along the color of the tank shown in that's site Photo Gallery. I figured a lighter color of that OD would be great to show the detail and highlights of the bolts, grill, etc.

My dad, who was Infantry in the Korean War (May '52-'53), had an old black and white picture of a Sherman tank close to their outfit. It IS dark and glossy in color. And we all know the army went to dark semi-gloss after WWII.

Look at that site and read that paragraph about that Sherman. That's what made me decide to paint this tank this color. Mike

chris923

My Feedback: (53)

We who are into RC plane modeling use Klass kote. http://www.klasskote.com

They will match colors and have military colors in stock.

RichJohnson

Compressed perspective with color is well known. I still look at it as color is color. If you notice my test tank changes color appearance from brown to green depending upon its setting. This is why the US military chose OD because it was not green or brown. To me the color should be the same. My color is correct, I know that. If its too dark for someones liking, adding a tad of white to the mix will lighten it up without changing the color much. That way you can highlight details a little more. If the brownish tint bothers you, put one less part brown in based on my 2 x 2 x 2 mixture. I tested 2 black 2 yellow and 1 brown and really liked the color as it was a tad stronger on the green side, as I was doing various mixing. If the brown bothers you, use this, spray a test sample and see if you like it. This would also represent some fading from the original mixture.

Also, do not look at the color for your color judgment INSIDE! No light inside will show you the true color. Take it outside and look at it in real sunlight. That is the only true way to judge the color.

On a real vehicle, OD begins to fade and in a year or two, it will look more brown or green no matter what the background is, because the pigments fade leaving the stronger one behind. I have seen vehicles that look pea green and others that look brown, or really faded to almost pink. There is an M41 in front of our armory that some think is tan, its really just super faded OD. I have some parts on my Dodge that are going brown while the rest of the truck is going green. Different mfgs have the same product color but reach it with their own mixing formula of pigments, which fade differently.

That article by Steve is excellent, and part of what I refer to. He has done lots of research and is big in the restoration field, I have read lots of articles by him.

Old MSG, that color is way wrong, that's not armor color. Its wheeled vehicle color. That is what jeeps and trucks are painted. If you like it, its your model. But I have strived for accuracy, and what appears correct to my eyes having seen the real color in real life.

One major problem is the two colors the US used, armor and everything else. The jeeps appeared green as they are a light OD. The dark OD is no where near green. Steve touches on a phenomenon of color perception that started with model kits and the box art done for the cover using light OD and shades of green. this was done because a dark OD tank looks more like a blob with detail not showing up for an artists rendering and wont sell model kits based on the cover.

Restorers don't always get it right. Research is necessary and I have seen gross errors people have made claiming something is right, when I know its not.
Im a rivet counter for modeling when I am serious about a model. I am the same way with an accurate restoration, unless the vehicle is just a fun runner.
I see so many people with bottle cap pullers or ash trays on the dash of their Willys MB and some of them think its an accurate mod. No way. Ive heard stories of guys in Nam doing this with their M151 MUTTs but not in WWII.

I may appear to be on a soap box here and preaching.... but really Im just posting the culmination of my research and acquired knowledge. Mostly based on frustration from not finding the correct color right out of a bottle or can. I have not seen Vallejo paint in my stores.

Im not going to walk up to somebody at a battle and start ragging on their Sherman color or what ever else may be wrong with it. Im not an *******. I offer constructive criticism if the person asks for it. Im the same way with model trains in my main hobby.

So I present what I consider the correct color, but your model is your model and paint it with what makes you happy. That's what sent me on this long mixing road to be happy with my models.

tomhugill

So true, this is an interesting article:

http://www.aidan-campbell.co.uk/PDFs...e%20colour.pdf

To my mind your trying to make your model look realistic to the eye of the builder. I've found rigidly sticking to the exact colour shade doesn't produce the most pleasing model. Panzer grey is a similar matter. If you go for the exact colour the model to my eye looks far too dark (as the of you have made up does). I've no doubt you've gotten close to prototypical shade but as to whether it's the most pleasing shade for a model remains in the eye of the beholder.

Old MSgt

Rich, how is that 319 paint then? One site (I think it's that 'Army Jeep Site') lists 319 Lusterless as correct for 1941-44 tanks.

Mike

philipat

@RichJohnson: I appreciate your research and experimentation on the matter. It's very helpful. I'd be interested in exactly which "black, brown and yellow" Tamiya paints you used, since they have at least two of each. Steve Zaloga's article offered an interesting thought on lightening the color with "panzer yellow" rather than white. Question: did the US colors shift to something more green over time? Seems like the Korean War would have kept the WWII standards. But, might have gotten a little greener with Vietnam? Of course, the NATO colors kicked in at some point, but I'm guessing that was probably in the '80s.

RichJohnson

The US had a few colors in Korea. Armor stayed the same. Old vehicles stayed the same, new mfgs used a newer mid color OD which I cant recall the number of, for a couple years but it was about 1954 or so that the US Army converted the standard to fs24087 semi gloss OD for all US Army equipment. This does not cover USMC AND USAF. This color is damn near wwii OD so much, but with sligtly more variance where some vehicles looked more green and some looked more brown, but it was still all 24087. Brass staff vehciles got 14087 high gloss. Post vietnam we adopted MERDEC which was 4 colors. That changed mid 80s to nato 3 color with CARC PAINT. Nasty stuff. Now we have about 3 mfgs for paint, 686 sand is at least twp different distenict colors, fresh paint, right next to each other.

philipat

Okay...since you brought it up and most likely my future topics would be USMC, were there Marine tanks in Korea or the Pacific during WWII the same as the Olive Drab you've done or different? (greener, etc)

I'm guessing that the first Pershings used by the USMC in Korea were the same as the Army's Olive Drab since they were pulled straight from the warehouse and put on a ship to Korea. The only painting that I know of the Marines doing to those (which eventually got off as part of the Pusan Perimeter) was to add light yellow tank ID markings. Later tanks for the landings at Inchon might have been painted differently. Given that they have the later tracks (T80E1 with steel chevrons) rather than the earlier T81 single-pin tracks, it would seem that they also may have had time to repaint them. Just guessing...so hoping those with more knowledge jump in...

RichJohnson

Ok paint colors in Tamiya
flat black XF-1
Flat yellow XF-3
Flat Brown SF-10

Mixed 1x1x1x.

IF you want it to be a greener tint which looks awesome still and nobody will know the difference, go 2x 2x 1x
It will also look a little lighter in color too.

RichJohnson

As far as the USMC is concerned, I would hypothesize that in WWII the marines got their tanks from the armor board and they likely were painted the same. They did have USA numbers and stars on many of them, others sometimes had a different font stencil with USMC on them.
IF they were repainted, it would have been 34052. That is what the USMC trucks were painted I believe.

I do know that by the 50s, and into Viet Nam, the Marines continued the 34052 fat dark green on the wheeled vehicles, and presumably on the armor as well. But I cannot confirm that with any direct knowledge.

philipat

Cool...thanks for the info and the paint specs.

RichJohnson

I have wanted to severely edit my post here for a while as I have learned so much more about WWII Olive drab paint that I cant believe how mistaken I was on some facts and I want to correct them and help out the hobby as some of what I am posting is now long gone from the net.

Following this post I will post my findings for mixing and matching paint for the various colors.

First, somewhere I got the impression that armor was its own color seperate from vehicles, thats not true. Everything got painted with the OD that was currently in the supply chain.
Second, Zalouga's article below references how close but different the later semi gloss colors are from the WWII colors and how at a certain point the name stayed the same, but the color changed. I got caught by that sadly.
I have done a ton more research and spent an enormous amount of money on lots of paint mixing over and over and over to get the right colors and I will share what I have at the end.

So to break it down there were only two colors of official OD used by the army from the factory and in depots. We started WWII off with Quarter Masters color No.22. The LUSTERLESS muddy brown pig slop that Zalouga references that was designed by Pittsburgh Plate Glass company. Then in 1944 the color changed fairly radically with its ingredients under the new color No. 319 SLIGHT GLOSS. Note its not semi gloss. Think a gentle satin really. This color is much greener and closer to what you think of as army green but less what you expect Olive Drab to look like, because now its not just a mixture of black and ochre, it had zinc chromate which is yellow and lead and other binders and pigments in it that influenced the color.

Post war in August 1945 the color was changed again to a SEMI GLOSS which was also a bit darker but not alot. Not like the 1960 standard of FS24087 that I had previously thought. This 1945 color didn't have a new number though until 1950 when it was called 2430.

Highjinks ensued from the 1950s through the 60s with the Olive Drab in the Army with at one point there were two ODs one more green and one more khaki brown tinted. Many Army Jeep restorers of this era prefer the khaki color because it looks cooler I guess. Any way, with the vehicle restoration hobby, they dont't even apply the WWII color names to some of the paints that they sell for WWII, further complicating things.

Here is the US Army Olive Drab lineage published on https://olive-drab.com/od_mvg_odpaint.php
It gives the dates and some notes on color changes etc, a must read for understanding how we have OD today compared to what was used in WWII

Here is the excellent article from Steve Zalouga that I read and referenced here above.. You wont believe what I had to do to find this thing as its long gone. Even he would not help me... and he wrote it. Any way, he is correct on many issues and facts, but the recent restoration of Cobra King, the famous M4a3 E2 Jumbo Sherman has shown what some long buried 319 paint behind a bogie looks like when its not faded. here AFTA Cobra King Page

RichJohnson

Ok, so to get the right olive drab colors I used samples from restoration paint and color matching and looking and comparing photos to decide what seemed to be about the right color for myself, since I am neurotic and want to be correct, Ive spent alot of time and money on paint playing with mixes to get what I think matches factory fresh paint. OD is very subjective and in the eye of the beholder so if you dont like it, paint your tank what you want, its your tank.
For painting olive drab, primer and finish are very very important as they play a key role in how the color will come out. I sprayed so many mixes, all on red, black and grey primers to test to see which ones were the right one to get the overall finish shade. I used up lots of spare hulls and turrets that I had scraped out from sherman builds or salvages so to say.

For the QM No.22 muddy brown pig slop I settled on Black Auto primer Tamiya Orange 80%, Tamiya Flat Black 20% thinned with alcohol then sprayed with Testors Dullcoat liquid from the square bottles "pink label" from an airbrush . This color is apporpriate for anything built up through 1943. Thats Jeeps, tanks, trucks, artillery you name it. So if you are building a small hatch sherman, it really should be about this muddy brown OD color. The rear engine deck of the sherman hull below demonstrates this color. Ignore the sand color bleeding over and the driver hatches. The left side of the engine deck in the photo has been sprayed with dullcoat the right is raw paint.




The next color is No 319. Correct for anything 1944 and half of 1945. I achieved this color using grey auto primer Tamiya OD 80%, Tamiya Flat Yellow 20%, then spray with Testors Dullcoat from a rattle can. The turret below is painted with this color. The left side is still raw paint and is Lusterless, while the right side has been oversprayed with dullcoat to saturate the paint seal it and bring the color to life. This is pretty darn close for the "Slight gloss" spec. If you want something that is a little faded out looking but really close right out of the bottle, Tamiya Dark Green No2 is great substitute after you spray it with dullcoat and saturate it.


Here is the 319 color turret compared to the No22 color on the deck. Note the right side of the deck in this photo is the lusterless dullcoat sprayed side.




Finally we have the 1945 color that became 2430 and in the 1980s was renamed 23070 (semigloss) which is what the vehicle restorers know it as.This photo shows the 319 painted turret compared to the glacis which is the 1945 semi gloss.
I achieved this by using Black auto primer Tamiya Olive Drab 90%, Tamiya Lemon Yellow 10% oversprayed with testors Glosscoat from the square bottle of liquid with the pink label using an airbrush.




After an entire pile of bottles of tamiya paint and a lot of alcohol and quite a bit of money, and about 6 scrap hulls and turrets that were all repainted with fresh coats of primer over and over, I myself am happy with my final results and feel I have found what I deem to be the right colors for wartime/ post war Olive drab.
My previous assessment that my Black Orange Yellow 1-1-1 mix of Olive Drab stands as it represents the OD in the 1960s specifically the semi gloss FS24087 green OD color.
I have learned alot of how colors can change with lighting, always go outside in the sunlight, not a cloudy day, to see what your color looks like, and really, color on a screen is very very subject and often distorted from its real color.
And just for fun, here are two photos of Cobra King


A/N 319 factory paint found under the bogies when removed



Fresh US Army paint job.

casualTanker

Great job Rich. You're tickling all my OCD model building neurons here...

Just for the record: Zaloga's article was published in Military Modeling at some point, but seems to be closed down. The article is still available at the waybackmachine

https://web.archive.org/web/20180411...ive-drab/4536/

Let me throw in two additional issues/complications. First, what's your impression of how WWII OD wore, in terms of chips versus changes in color. Some suggests a darker OD coming through in worn areas, as non-worn OD tends to lighten over time. Chips rare/nonexistent because of strong adhesion (as opposed to German paints)? Second, I would suggest going to a lighter shade for the base coat if the plan is to follow up with the usual arsenal of scale model weathering techniques. I've made this mistake, starting out "correct" and ending up "wrong". Hard to make dark base coat lighter without another run of the airbrush...

RichJohnson

Well, since most people, me included seem to have a darker od for shermans in the minds eye, mostly from seeing post war repainted shermans, most of us are used to seeing darker tanks any way. I myself dont like using a lighter base coat to start with. Im not the artist, im more the scientist, that the color is the color. I dont do much weathering. My model trains are heavily weathered but my tanks all just get naturally dirty which covered up the weathering job on the first couple any way. If I brought them in the house and cleaned them up maybe I would feel differnt but I just like to leave them nearly factory fresh. I do sometimes weather and shade. Just whatever strikes me.

As for wear, apparantly the No22 did not wear well at all. And I understand the brownish OD faded to the green side most of the time. The 319 was a new formula with stuff to make it wear much better including the glossyness of it. maybe a hardener was added? Any way, a Glossy ish OD in ETO isnt going to fade or wear a whole lot in one year. Most weathering mud and debris getting on it or scraping or rubbing it like trees and such. From what I can tell, the OD would start to flatten out, then get lusterless and chalky in color, to where it would lighten and flatten. But when brushed, or rubbed it show back up darker, just like many old paints that have been attacked by UV. Makes painting a model of something youve never seen before hard. I was always mixing very dark tanks based on what I thought I knew and percieved from photos. Boy was I wrong. Amazingly, my 319 color is pretty close to what HL used on their sherman lol.
Like I said, if you want a bit faded out 319 for a late war tank in PTO where its been sunbaked, Tamiya Dark Green no2 might be a good fit for you. Then you dont have to break out the labratory and mix paint. And when you mix, use a real scientific method, I use child tylenol syringes. Perfect for this for how they are marked out.

Old MSgt

Rich, what about Testers 1265 'Flat Olive Drab' paint? How does that shade look for an early WWII color? It looks a lot like the old paint under that suspension housing in your pic. I've been using it and am planning to give it a light overspray of the 'Faded Olive Drab' on the high areas after it's built so the lower shaded areas would stand out.

I'm just curious because I've got too many areas painted right now on this build to switch but I figured what I'm doing would be close. Here's what I've painted and one of the bottles of faded OD I'm going to use. (and I know it'll look different when it gets out in sunlight but I can't exactly carry it out right now...)

Mike in Kentucky

RichJohnson

Old MSgt

I just shot this Testers 1265 'Flat Olive Drab' out of 'rattle cans' and it looks pretty flat. I haven't given it an overspray of faded OD yet. I'll spray the faded OD when it's fully built. Then I usually give'em a very light (18" away or more) overspray of flat tan (for dust). I'll do the faded OD right before I paint the stars, hull ID, etc. Then the streaking, weathering will dull and flatten it down even more.

This pic was taken under a VERY WHITE LED light (got these lights at Rural King farm supply and they're as bright white as an operating room! I LIKE'EM!) Thanks Rich!

Mike