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1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

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Old 01-21-2010, 05:37 PM
  #51
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

I agree!!!...nice thing about the hetzer is that its a turretless design, so since space will be at a premium you could elminate features such as gun rotation/elevation(wouldnt notice it that much on a hetzer anyways..), even recoil(on some of the later hetzers the germans even toyed around with mounting recoiless guns right to the hull...and it worked!)...that would leave you some room for improved sound/speaker.....maybe run lipoly packs like mentioned earlier..
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Old 01-21-2010, 05:58 PM
  #52
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Those of you that are die-hards, what would you expect a vehicle of this sort to weigh, worst case, once in fighting trim?

Depending on the suspension design, is it possible that a plastic hull (I recall early on that resin, which will be used here, could be an issue?) will simply not hold up without some extensive work/reinforcement?

I know on the HL KV1 there are some issues with weak areas in running them, and those were designed from the ground up to be RC. If RC isn't factored into the design, could you be looking at a project much more involved in regards to longevity when running it?

As a for instance, if weight increases, suspension needs to be equally adjusted. If the Hetzer uses suspension mounting points that take a lot of load, that would need to be factored in. From what I can see, they appear to be a leaf-spring setup of some sort.
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Old 01-21-2010, 06:09 PM
  #53
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

OK this to the RC world is almost useless, great we get a detailed resin top but we have to discard the white metal sprockets which are as week as Gordon Browns policies and there are no replacements, then there is probably all the running gear and wheels not to mention tracks to an RC tank or conversion this is the most vital part in this case the upper hull is very easy to make so for the RC world you are not offering anything but probably want $200 for a static kit that is no use for RC
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Old 01-22-2010, 01:53 PM
  #54
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Would making the lower hull diecast v. resin be helpful. This can be accomodated without the loss of details. and would continue to feature a resin upper hull.

If a die cast lower hull is used, is there still a need for atray inside to mount various rc components?

What materials would you like to see used for the suspension/drive sprockets?

Also would there be any special requirements for the inside of the drive sprocket to recieve the various output shafts etc...?

Appreciate the feedback and PM's.
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Old 01-22-2010, 03:09 PM
  #55
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Only problem with bolting gearboxes directly to the hull is that the output shaft for the sprocket would be too low. If you use screws and spacers to mount the gearboxes, it could be an issue, unless the spacer was a solid block, like a piece of plastic or something.

I believe Tamiya's output shaft has two flats opposite each other, which mate with the sprocket, while HL has one flat. Really believe it would be beneficial to have both gearboxes in hand to design around. I think even on the HL (unsure of Tamiya) there are different length output shafts.

Can't help on the materials, sorry. But it would seem diecast could be expensive.

Note that a Taimya Full Option King Tiger (for instance) can be had for around $550, and that includes all the running gear short of a radio (and I think a battery).
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:00 PM
  #56
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Although there has been a lot of talk about gear boxes and the lower hull, how about the tracks. What is going to be provided for tracks that will work for RC. Are these going to be resin also......which would not hold up?
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:01 PM
  #57
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Using a metal lower hull will be of benefit as would the following parts
Sprockets = alloy
Idler wheel = alloy
Suspension arms = alloy
Road wheels = alloy or plastic with brass bushes or bearings with rubber tyres
Suspension springs = steel
Tracks = alloy at a push plastic
Return wheels = alloy or plastic with brass bushes and rubber tyres

Personally I associate the word “metal” with cheep poor quality alloys that break very quickly, if you are serious about building a tank that is RC capable then it at least must incorporate a gearbox or have a recommended off the shelf gearbox that fits it’s no use building a static tank and expecting the RC world to start spending 3-4 times the kit modifying it on the other hand the static guys can also work with working suspension this helps in dioramas with the wheels at different heights showing un even terrene, white metal parts must only be used on small detail parts
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Old 01-22-2010, 04:18 PM
  #58
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Thank you for your feedback.

Our design had already incorporated bronze wheel bushings for the road wheels and a working suspension. That was, as you said - to appeal to the static diorama builders. So, good call on that.

Same for indiviudal metal track links and connected via a track pin based on the original design. So again, I think we were already tracking (pun intended) in the same direction. Resin tracks are nice but don't match the look that real metal does. And in this case, the durability it would seem.

At this point, I think what we'd like to sort out for the feasibility of an RC conversion is just what we alluded to a few posts back, that is- what would the lower hull/drivetrain requirements be in terms of design. We understand that there is a lot of different directions people can go with regards to motors etc based upon the previous discussion, so I guess what we're looking for is a "middle ground" that we can strive to design for. Perhaps thats not possible. I don't know, but thats what I'm hoping to find out here via you folks and your feedback.

At present, someone has volunteered a HL engine drivetrain and possibily look towards that as a baseline. Again, we would like to produce a product that rivals that provides an accurate and high level of detail, has the possibility for minor conversion to a RC model and most of all keep it affordable for customers.

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Old 01-22-2010, 06:46 PM
  #59
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

I'm with Perry,A picture is worth many words.And for my friends across the pond some British WWII Armor would certainly be a positive addition to the hobby.And a Matilda would be very interesting,Sax
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Old 01-22-2010, 06:51 PM
  #60
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

I agree a matilda would be great or my personal choice...the good Ol "Crusader"
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Old 01-22-2010, 09:14 PM
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

This all seems really hokey to me. As stated by so many, converting a static model, especially one of weak resin, is a major task. You mention a suspension but a 'movable' suspension' is much different than one that will hold up to use.

Your demeanor has been pleasant to say the least but your questions concerning RC tanks have been sophomoric. Have you not seen or operated one? Or looked at pic's here of the internals? You are going to manufacture these to sell, do some basic research, heck order a HL tank for $89, tear out the elec's and gears and see if you can fit it. The fact that you are asking people for free samples of parts that cost $10 for your development program is alarming. Also, your suggestion to move to a die cast mold for the hull is laughable. That's $30k in tooling. You can swing that but need a free $10 gearbox?

Sorry to sound blunt and this is not a flame. I just don't ever see this materializing. I don't think you have thought out a business model that is sustainable not to mention production, customer service and distribution. I hope I am wrong, I really do, but it's kinda a 'cookie cutter' pattern of events that happen so often they are easily recognizable. Many people think they can turn their fun hobby into a business then go away after a while.

Do you have any pic's of the models you currently manufacture or will this be the first?

Perry
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Old 01-23-2010, 03:01 AM
  #62
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

I've been watching this thread and I agree with some of the points Perry has brought up. I'd just buy the latest HL and Tamiya gearboxes if I were wanting to design a chassis that would accept them. I don't think any current RC tank manufacturer produces a complete die-cast lower hull for their tanks, not even Tamiya (they use stamped aluminum, and very thin aluminum at that). $30K just for tooling for a little Hetzer model's lower hull, that seems kind of high to me. I was quoted $10K for producing all required metal tooling for injection molding of a 5 foot long submarine model back in 2006. That was a price for tooling created in Asia, probably China, not in the USA. I got the quote from a local US protoype production company. Maybe die cast molds are more expensive than injection molds.. I've never looking into die-cast mold making so maybe Perry is right.

A new model every 2 months seems to be an unrealistic expectation. I think you'd be spending far more money in production costs in your first year than you would earn in profits from sales of the models trying to do that. That would be at least 6 new models in a calendar year. Neither Tamiya (with just tanks) nor HL have done that and look what a HUGE company Tamiya is. Heng Long is now an established player in this model tank game, but look where they are headquartered, in what is probably the cheapest country on the planet to produce toy models. All this model stuff is coming out of Asia and Eastern Europe.

Now I realize this venture started at least as just a static display model, but even if we talk about static only, who makes models in the USA that are global sellers? Who makes models in US that are global sellers and are actually manufactured in the USA for that matter? I say all this in part, because I notice your location is in the USA...which I was actually surprised to see. I thought maybe your just a really wealthy guy, who wants to try something fun with his money (which I have no issue with if that is the case, I wouldn't mind being in that position myself). But, when your having an HL gearbox donated for your design research, it doesn't seem like your a guy with deep pockets. I'm not trying to be insulting either, like Perry said. Though, I am curious to see if you actually can pull this off, especially being a potential US model company.
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:32 AM
  #63
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model


Quote:
ORIGINAL: RSEA
<snipped>
A new model every 2 months seems to be an unrealistic expectation.
I just gave my monitor a twin nostril douche of Peet's Arabian Mocha Java. It isn't pretty. I'm leaving to fetch a paper towel roll from the kitchen. Thanks a bunch.

Cheers, Bob

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Old 01-23-2010, 10:33 AM
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mrunktonkey
I just gave my monitor a twin nostril douche of Peet's Arabian Mocha Java. It isn't pretty.
[/quote]



Could someone translate this into English
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Old 01-23-2010, 11:14 AM
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model




Quote:
ORIGINAL: mrunktonkey
I just gave my monitor a twin nostril douche of Peet's Arabian Mocha Java. It isn't pretty.
[/quote]


Quote:
ORIGINAL: rivetcounter
Could someone translate this into English
It means he laughed hard while he was drinking coffee, so his drink shot out from his nose.
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Old 01-23-2010, 02:45 PM
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Couldn’t he have said that in the first place, Thanks for the translation I may have to call on your help again
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:09 PM
  #67
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Again, I appreciate the informatiion andaccept the negatives. I have thick skin and had I not been the hobby industry asresinproducer back about 10-15 years ago, I'd probably be eaqually as skeptical as the naysayers here are.

To answer some of the questions, No, I am not a RC tank guy, I have not driven an RC tank. As a veteran, I have driven the real thing being licensed on the Bradley and M-113 tracka fewmore years ago than I care to remember. So, I think I understand the basic mechanical concepts of operation of armored and tracked vehicles. As an Battalion Maintenance Officer in aForward SupportBatalion of a combat division,have seen my share of tanks & tracks,thier running gear and pissed of mechanics. I've pulled packs in the snow and changed tracks in the desert. So I think I know a little bit about tanks.

But this is not about my qualifications, its about getting feedback for a product that I am producing. Yes, I am in America and in the past when I had my other hobby business, I produced all of my own product range as wellas for other companies. I do have equipment and the knowledge to produce complex resin castings. That is not an issue, what I was looking forwas feedback to make what is currently designed as a static model for static model builders into a product that could also be of benefit to the RC community since there appears to be a need that is not being met by existing RC tank manufacturers.

I am not out to design from scratch a RC tank. The real things are bad enough and in miniature its even moreso.I am not Mr Tamiya with the here-to-fore mentioned deep pockets. I am a modeller and an AFV enthusiast who is also an entrepeneur creating a product for the model/hobby community.

Yes, I could go out an purchase a whole slew of RC armor to tear down and backward engineer and probably would if I were going after an RC market. But again, this kit is designed for static modelers with some nice upgrades that they too would appreciate such as metal link to link tracks and an articulating suspension for diorama use.

At this point in my product developement it would allow for possible changes in materials and some slight design mods. Hence the post.

I came to this forum to get a better understanding of the needs of the RC community and their likes and dislikes in a RC tank. Seeking information, seeking advice, seeking to interact with the folks who buy and use these products and see what their thoughts are about what makes a good RC tank. As my post title says, a 1/16th scale Hetzer is coming soon. Not an RC Hetzer coming soon.

I will at this point bow out of this thread as it seems that the consensus isthatpotential conversion of my companies static model would notin all likelihood not be something useful to them.

I wish you all well gentlemen and to the fellow veterans I to thank you for your service to our great country.

Gary Owen.
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Old 01-23-2010, 04:26 PM
  #68
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bluestarmodelco

Again, I appreciate the informatiion and accept the negatives. I have thick skin and had I not been the hobby industry as resin producer back about 10-15 years ago, I'd probably be eaqually as skeptical as the naysayers here are.

To answer some of the questions, No, I am not a RC tank guy, I have not driven an RC tank. As a veteran, I have driven the real thing being licensed on the Bradley and M-113 track a few more years ago than I care to remember. So, I think I understand the basic mechanical concepts of operation of armored and tracked vehicles. As an Battalion Maintenance Officer in a Forward Support Batalion of a combat division, have seen my share of tanks & tracks, thier running gear and pissed of mechanics. I've pulled packs in the snow and changed tracks in the desert. So I think I know a little bit about tanks.

But this is not about my qualifications, its about getting feedback for a product that I am producing. Yes, I am in America and in the past when I had my other hobby business, I produced all of my own product range as well as for other companies. I do have equipment and the knowledge to produce complex resin castings. That is not an issue, what I was looking for was feedback to make what is currently designed as a static model for static model builders into a product that could also be of benefit to the RC community since there appears to be a need that is not being met by existing RC tank manufacturers.

I am not out to design from scratch a RC tank. The real things are bad enough and in miniature its even moreso. I am not Mr Tamiya with the here-to-fore mentioned deep pockets. I am a modeller and an AFV enthusiast who is also an entrepeneur creating a product for the model/hobby community.

Yes, I could go out an purchase a whole slew of RC armor to tear down and backward engineer and probably would if I were going after an RC market. But again, this kit is designed for static modelers with some nice upgrades that they too would appreciate such as metal link to link tracks and an articulating suspension for diorama use.

At this point in my product developement it would allow for possible changes in materials and some slight design mods. Hence the post.

I came to this forum to get a better understanding of the needs of the RC community and their likes and dislikes in a RC tank. Seeking information, seeking advice, seeking to interact with the folks who buy and use these products and see what their thoughts are about what makes a good RC tank. As my post title says, a 1/16th scale Hetzer is coming soon. Not an RC Hetzer coming soon.

I will at this point bow out of this thread as it seems that the consensus is that potential conversion of my companies static model would not in all likelihood not be something useful to them.

I wish you all well gentlemen and to the fellow veterans I to thank you for your service to our great country.

Gary Owen.

So does that mean you don't have any pic's?

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Old 01-23-2010, 05:51 PM
  #69
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Just curious as to what the market is like for 1/16 static models? I use tohave an RC 1/6 SDKFz. 251 and it always amazed me that there are quite a few 1/6 tanks out there that are designedsimply to be"static" models???...now"static" makes perfect sense if your talking the smaller standard scales (ie 1/72,1/35,1/48,etc,etc) but in 1/6 all you have is an awesome looking, giant "doorstop". Now here we aretalking about 1/16th which although much smaller then 1/6 is still a decent sized model and considerning the size is more then ample to rc it. Why would anybody want something this size and not be able to drive it??? maybe I'm missing something. You can always take an rc and make it static, but you cant readily take a static and make it RC(and have anykind of durability), so you would be better served and have better sales if you designedyour modelstowards rc. Us RC guys will be much more willing to spend more money on our tanks then those "static guys".....and nothing is gonna advertise your models better then someone seeingthem climbing overhills and trudging through the dirt....
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Old 01-23-2010, 05:54 PM
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Bluestar, thanks for sharing some of your background. If your an experienced guy with resin and have the equipment for it, then you might be best off doing what you originally planned (producing a static resin kit). I've seen plenty of guys online that prefer to build static kits, even some in 1/16 and who have no interest in RC models. I think it would work out for the better in the long run, if your model was either designed as static, or designed from day one as an RC functional model, but probably not trying to cater to both markets simultaneously. You'd have static modelers complaining about the higher price with extra stuff they don't care about, and RC guys complaining that the model is just not suitable enough or durable enough for their uses.

I do wish you success in your venture though. It would be nice to see a US model maker doing some of these tanks.
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:22 PM
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

A purely static 1/16 tank sells well enough. Trumpeter made several. Several companies have also made 1/16 static tanks. There's one company in Germany who makes the Jagdtiger, E-100, Maus, etc. Just because we live in our small RC bubble doesn't mean that RC is the end-all, be-all.
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Old 01-23-2010, 07:45 PM
  #72
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Quote:
ORIGINAL: googlydoogly

A purely static 1/16 tank sells well enough. Trumpeter made several. Several companies have also made 1/16 static tanks. There's one company in Germany who makes the Jagdtiger, E-100, Maus, etc. Just because we live in our small RC bubble doesn't mean that RC is the end-all, be-all.

Not only do I support that thought but we as a group need to encourage any kind of modeling product to work with. I was a bit distressed with the negativity of a few here . For many of us the lower part of a tank is child's play to modify or build from scratch. For the rest of us ,wait after market producers who would jump all over a product like the hetzer. I do not want to get into a bad mouth race here but more encouragement is needed from these "very few" 1:16th suppliers. I think we just ran off a guy that we should have embraced.
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Old 01-23-2010, 08:27 PM
  #73
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model


Quote:
ORIGINAL: kclank

Quote:
ORIGINAL: googlydoogly

A purely static 1/16 tank sells well enough. Trumpeter made several. Several companies have also made 1/16 static tanks. There's one company in Germany who makes the Jagdtiger, E-100, Maus, etc. Just because we live in our small RC bubble doesn't mean that RC is the end-all, be-all.

Not only do I support that thought but we as a group need to encourage any kind of modeling product to work with. I was a bit distressed with the negativity of a few here . For many of us the lower part of a tank is child's play to modify or build from scratch. For the rest of us ,wait after market producers who would jump all over a product like the hetzer. I do not want to get into a bad mouth race here but more encouragement is needed from these ''very few'' 1:16th suppliers. I think we just ran off a guy that we should have embraced.
I did not pick up so much on the negativity that you are talking about. Don't confuse lack of immediate gushing about as negativity. He was very upfront that he was swinging by for some ideas and he got 3 good pages worth of them. Quick free market research for a product he is considering. Some pros, some cons. Anyone should want both. He left with information that would make his Hetzer a better selling product for his company, perpetuating his ability to make more tanks.

It kinda unraveled a bit when he was claiming he could release a new tank every 2 months and employ expensive tooling at the drop of a hat. To 'encourage' such thoughts that seem so obviously wrong is not a good thing, in fact it is the opposite.

I don't believe we have run him off so don't despair. If he is going to make it, he is going to make it. If this short entry level thread dissuades him it probably wasn't meant to be.

It would have been cool though if he could have at least posted a pic or two so we could see some of his work like you and so many others do.

Perry

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Old 01-23-2010, 10:03 PM
  #74
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

Bluestarmodelco just a idea go buy a henglong p4 it has leaf spring bogies i mite be wrong but if you have the stuff to cast metal it is not a comlicated machine and sell as an up grade. Besides it would be justice for some one to do it to them.
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Old 01-25-2010, 10:20 AM
  #75
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Default RE: 1/16 Hetzer coming soon Blue Star Model

I tend to agree with you Kclank. The negative tone was completely unnecessary for somebody just asking some questions. You can tell from his final post that he felt it too. Great... so much for a chance at a 38t anytime soon!
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