torpedochief

Okay Brothers,

Give me some opinions. Just finsished painting my KT. Now here is the delima. There were only about 480 + or - KTs built. So the ones that went into action had little chance to really weather...correct? I know they got somewhat banged up just doing normal tank stuff, however would you see the same weathering as say a 3 year old TIGER 1?

Another little item to consider. The quality of the paint, and application during and just after 1944. Seems to me, and I know I may be wrong, that at that stage it was more do the best you can and get it the thing out the door. It is hard to tell in photos, but I suspect, there may have been some pretty lousy paint jobs from the factory.

Opinions?

Don

sevoblast

Generally, no good First Shirt, no matter what Army he's in, will allow any of his lads to ride around in a rust bucket. Yes, there is some wear and tear on any AFV, but it is my understanding that pretty much up to the end discipline, ergo care of your equipment and weapons, was pretty good. You also have the CO of the Work Company to contend with, and I would bet that if your King showed up for PM at his platz looking bedraggled and beaten, it would not be one of your better days.

As far as longevity, one of the Porsche turreted Kings lasted virtually to the bitter end. Last photo I saw he had winter cammo, in HUngary. I would be sure others did too.

I would go for some subtle wear around the hatches etc, but would not overdo it. Even with poor paint, it takes a lot of butt slides to wear paint off. Some dust and grime in a wash, but again subtle. Wear on the tools, yes. Shiny shovels and hammer, ax blades bright, tow clevis' at the point of contact with the cables, all will have paint gone and show bare metal. Tool handles will also show wear, including the crank handle.

As far as paint quality, they are still digging German, and Russian, AFV's out of holes and bogs in former SSSR and east EU, and generally they look pretty good when raised from the grave.

hatakashi

Especially if u're trying to depict a KT produced in Mar 1945...it would be LUCKY if the tank could weather at all

pattoncommander

Sevo, have to agree, when practical, the tank should me well maintained and look nice, BUT is a combat environment, when you do get a few minutes after restocking ammo, refueling, track maint, FOOD, camo check and swap, your priority is shut-eye. Tow cables and other points of contact would have a bit of rust (comes in very fast) and a bit of mud. Shovel and axe blades in particular would not be allowed to be shiney..first priority is slop on some paint or mud, or stow it in a sponson box (which were not avail on Tigers) to prevent glare. That little bare metal, although seemingly insignificant, can very easily reflect sunlight and glare thru your camo. In 1944-45 Germany, not kosher with allies having complete air superiority. Had a CO that was very paranoid about bare shovels because he got his exe dragged over the coals by one of his tanks disclosing his unit's location by the gleam of one shovel on one tank.
To be realistic, paint on some dirt and bit of superficial rust on shovel/axe blades and grimey dirt overall and on tow cable ends. Tow cables are usually a very icky dirty mess to work with and very rarely cleaned. If the tank has been in the field for any length of time, tow cables would have been used to help someone and more often as not, not placed completely back in the "proper" stowage" positions.
i

pzrwest

By weathering do you mean rust and paint chipped etc? If you have been in the army and taken a clean vehicle out into the field when you have returned to base it is dirty with mud and crap all over it. So just dirty it up but no heavy rusting or wear. There may be bullet strikes from small weapons fire, under powered anti tank guns etc

pattoncommander

Pzwest, last para; "superficial rust"...some rust is always going to get at you, especially on any bare metal. I never saw my M-46 clean..and some things as tow cables, headlamp brush guards, grill door handles, spare cal 50 barrels and tools always had surface rust somewhere. That's the reason constant cleaning of MGs and swabbing & oiling the gun tube & cleaning the breech assy is always a priority. Ammo also has to be pulled and cleaned, especially in the M-26-45-46 wells under the turret when you have forded a couple rivers. Bullet strikes were normally holes in the sponson boxes or oil/water jerry cans. Pioneer tools were rarely in the rack, but normally shoved into a sponson box. Would have been nice to have had a "base" to go to and get everything cleaned up. In Korea, during the Monsoon season, we filled our left front sponson with oil and dumped the tools into it....and tools still collected rust.

rivetcounter

Unfortunately modellers have a habit of making there tanks look as though they have been standing outside for 15 years or more in recent years this has become very fashionable with rust all over the place, even the few German tanks that saw action for several years where not always on the front line and even the most reliable of tanks still requires maintenance, in Normandy some tanks which where only 2 months old where repainted in the field so the chances of these looking like relics are none existent, also when these tanks where re-pained in the field very often all the tools and cables where left in place and simply painted over we know this happened because of several reasons, pictures show this being done knocked out tanks with the tools missing have outlines in the camouflage paint where said tools where when the tank was painted and fatigued troops are as lazy, on Tiger II paint work was carried out by the factory this is where the hard edge pattern comes from this was done to help reduce paint losses in the field and also reduce to work required to distribute paint to different units.

There are 2 main things modellers have failed to notice,
1, German troops where issued “hob nailed boots” so all the sole and heal was covered in steel studs these would cause heavy wear to paintwork on flat surfaces like the turret roof or main deck
2, and this bugs me is the amount of rust streaks we see coming of weld lines this would be impossible the reason being that allied and German tanks all used Chrome molly welding rods which compared to armour is quite flexible so when hit by a round the weld would vibrate and flex as opposed to crack have a look at WWII era tanks you will see that the weld lines are shiny this is not polishing to the metal as the plates either side would also be polished, below are 2 picture of a Panther in the Ardennes this tank has stood outside since it was knocked out and hasn’t had a coat of paint in several years notice the weld lines one is even in a recess and so normal wear wont apply

Bauer66

Very valid points to consider.
There is some really good information in this thread.

Glad to see it covered.

pattoncommander

That is some really outstanding weathering with the emphasis on accuracy. The tank looks like steel that has been running between shot rounds for a while. Very good points about the Wehrmacht boots and the overlooked aspect on models. Also the diff on welds which is never considered. Thanks for the heads up.

torpedochief

Great stuff guys!!

Now here is a tough one. On the Matto KT a number of gouges are molded in the Zimmerit. What would you find with the Zim knocked, torn, scraped, blasted off? Would it be the base Dunkengleb, or Red Oxide Primer or bare steel?

Don

rivetcounter

Don, this is another very good question and to answer this question have a look at the picture below in particular the light patches above the drivers port and the left side of the front notice the light area

And confirmed on this colour picture

This has puzzled me for some time as all German tanks where painted with red oxide primer which will show as a dark area on a BW picture but this area where the zimmerit is missing is light Why, the reason is when zimmerit is knocked off sometimes a residue is left behind covering the red oxide primer as confirmed in this picture of a Jagdpanther with a small patch of zimmerit removed notice the red just showing through the zimmerit

And here on this recovered turret

torpedochief

Rivet

I just used that on the KT and wow! I started the paint job with a nice scale sandable red oxide primer. Then I painted the base coat and the cammo. After one coat of a rather dark filter I ever so carefully scraped the coats off till the red just showed through. Then another coat of dark wash to bring ti down just a bit and bingo!

Looked so good I did very small scratches along the fenders and mud flaps, and a spot or two on the enigne erea.

This is cool!!


Don

Viper54

My Feedback: (1)

lets see some pic's Don!

torpedochief

Here are some pictures of TIGER 313 in progress. Very arly stages of weathering and finiish details.

Enjoy!

Don

hdbeast

Nice work Chief

Gary

torpedochief

Thanks Brother Gary,

Nothing compared to your masterpiece! You gave me the idea to mod the jack mounts, and update the block.

Hope you get to resume work real soon!!

Don

pattoncommander

Great photos.. That Wehrmacht officer doesn't look overly happy about loosing the Tiger. Looks like it stepped on a hefty mine or took a couple hits on the track. Appears he may be thinking about recovering it.

88mm

Very nice Don.

Quick question rivetcounter, what was the usual color of the zimmerit paste? Did it come in one standard color or were there several different colors? Thanks in advance!

torpedochief

Hold the Phones!

I found a picture ofthe actual tank I am depicting Tiger 313. Found it in a very old ref. book thatI've looked at a 1000 times and never noticed it.

Too bad that now I found I realize I messed up the decal location Oh well lesson learned.

Don

rivetcounter

As far as I know zimmerit would be similar from batch to batch though little if any research has been done on this subject the owners of the few remaining tanks with genuine zimmerit are not too happy when people want to start taking samples, the colour is here in this picture biscuit brown if that makes sence.
http://i60.photobucket.com/albums/h3...r/zimmerit.jpg


Don, this Tiger is coming along well, though it’s better to study the pictures first then apply the decals LOL

88mm

Thanks rivetcounter. Learned alot from your other posts too.

torpedochief

Thanks Rivet.

Figures I would find the photo after I had the decals all set. One more Item you might be able to help me and some other modellers, and history buffs.

Just where in the world did the King Tiger fill it's fuel tanks. The fill ports and caps on the Tiger 1 are easy enough to see but I can't seem to find the gas cap on the KT.

I found one picture of a Tiger 1 that had just filled its tanks and it had fuel stains running down the sides. My thinking, (and we know how dangerous that is....[8D]) is that the fuel fill areas would get wear and tear more than other places. The fuel spills would also affect the surrounding paint.

Thanks a ton

Don

rivetcounter

Don, sorry for the delay we have family visiting over the holidays, this is very simple and is the same for Panther on the rear engine deck between the exhausts and the engine hatch are 3 round covers the centre with a bolted cover is a ventilation so gasses can escape from the fuel tanks on the left is the fuel filler on the right is the water filler for the radiators

torpedochief

Once again Rivet comes to the rescue!

Makes sence now that I look at it. This KT is starting to grow on me.

Now an electronic question.

I have the recoil working, but the LED Flash stays lit until it recoils, then goes out. Kinda bassackwards. Any offer a hint on how I goofed?

Thanks

Don

rivetcounter

Don, very sorry this is a question for another person most of the 1/16 tanks I have had have been Tamiya the others had Tamiya DMD’s fitted and I have never had a problem the 2 HL tanks I have had have both been given away and I have no experience with the Mattoro